MMRCA project: Govt firm on HAL as lead integrator

[sancho]

What makes you say gripen wouldn't have given any industrial advantage?

I hope the MoD procures at least another set of 18 directly from France, while upping the numbers to 189 (as widely anticipated).

The fact that the critical techs will mainly be procured from foreign countries, which requires approval for ToT, licence production or even accurate specs from the origin country (radar joint developed with UK/ITA, IRST completely from UK/ITA, parts of the EW from UK/ITA, engine completely from the US, most weapons from the US...

The best way for us to get the maximum out of this deal would be...

...increase the order to 180 (10 squads), of which 3 will be produced in fast track by Dassault in F3+ standard, while the other 7 will be licence produced in India, with further developments and customisation (similar to MKI deal, that saw Su 30Ks first, customised MKIs later)

...take RBE 2 AESA and FSO produced in India for LCA MK2 to reduce development time and increase commonality

...jointly develop techs and capabilities with the French for Rafale F4 upgrade (from 2018 onwards), based on the Rafale M, to reduce development time for a naval AMCA (GaN AESA modules, Kaveri-Snecma engine with TVC, NG SPECTRA and FSO)

...jointly develop a NG IR missile (based on MICA IR) as a land based SAM, a WVR missile for all Indian fighters and a naval sub launched SAM

Hahahaha...Probably yes... But would have come cheaper....

@ Others,

Lets agree to disagree.. I am of opinion that we should concentrate on FGFA, LCA and AMCA as I dont think Rafale gives us that much...

We agree on that our focus should be on getting LCA done, developing FGFA and if at all a naval AMCA, but not necessarily on the cost point in MMRCA, because you can't only compare the figures, but also what we get in return!

Gripen E - $50 millions flyaway / ready only by 2018 / no political , very limited industrial advantages / limited capable for deep strikes in the north easter area

F18SH - $68 millions flyaway / high operational restrictions / no customisation / no cruise missile / limited industrial advantages

Rafale - $85 millions flyaway - highest unit and operational costs


An these are only the disadvantages, when you compare the advantages too, it will be even more obvious, that we pay more to get more in return!

(compared to these 2, Rafale offers)

- the best flight performance
- the best deep strike option
- the best weapons
- the best future potential
- the best industrial advantages

 

[Storm Force]

any more delays in this and the NEED FOR THIS DEAL gets less & less.

IMO there is too much cross over in time frame between MMRCA & FGFA. WE have taken far too long signing this deal


IF SIGNED IN MARCH which i doubt

delivery of first sdq of 18 Rafale is 36 months time iE March 2016

license production in india too start 54 months after deal signed = Oct 2017

License production to produce 108 in india 7 year which will take us too 2024-2025

________________________

FGFA wil enter IAF around 2020

for same price range

cheaper weapons

and fifth gen technology

-------------------------------

WHY BOTHER just get some 2nd hand mirage2000-5 & more mig29smt until then about 50 each

 

[sancho]

WHY BOTHER just get some 2nd hand mirage2000-5 & more mig29smt until then about 50 each

Because LCA MK2 is still unsure and we would have nothing from 2017 till FGFA to replace more than 200 Mig 21s.
Because Mirage 2000s and Mig 29SMT are technically less capable then J17 Block 3, J10B and J11B, which will coming in in higher numbers in the meantime.
Because, IAF would lack credible offensive strike capability, especially in the east, let alone that only the M2Ks would be able to carry capable weapons.
Because we don't even have the a prototype of FGFA yet, let alone know about it's weapon and tech capabilities, nor what it's real cost will be.


It comes late, but we need it for sure and I don't think that the French couldn't offer us the first squad at 2016 only, but it depends on how long we need to train pilots, crews and build up the logistics in India. More interesting and difficult might be the licence production, lets see how that turns out.

 

[DMLA]

J17 Block 3

I presume you mean jf-17. I was not aware that block 2/3 specs were out! Could you share with references. Thanks!

 

[sancho]

I presume you mean jf-17. I was not aware that block 2/3 specs were out! Could you share with references. Thanks!

The JF 17 thread or the JF 17 info pool in the PAF section are the best sources here, but in short, Block 2 will have improvements wrt radar modes, avionics, a fixed refuelling probe and possibly some RCS reductions. Block 3 is expected to get a higher thrust engine (varient of RD33 MK, or Chinese counterpart) and AESA radar, possibly upgraded AAMs.

All in all, the induction and modernisation program of PAF is going pretty well, while we are struggling to induct sufficient numbers of fighters and AWACS because we waited too long for our indigenous developments.

 

[jha]

any more delays in this and the NEED FOR THIS DEAL gets less & less.

IMO there is too much cross over in time frame between MMRCA & FGFA. WE have taken far too long signing this deal

Exactly my point...

If the deal is not signed before the last Qtr. of 2013 ( which will most probably happen as France is literally trying to suck us for dry in negotiations and are not ready to provide the crucial techs.), there really is no need for this.

And as much as the technological advanced planes of potential adversaries are concerned, We already are going to induct FGFA and Su-30 in huge numbers. I dont know how feasible it is to spend a huge sum of $20 Bill. for a 2 year delay. We can always induct more Su-30 and LCAs during that period to fill up the gap.

 

[Storm Force]

I think we need to concentrate on getting the SU30MKI nos up to 270 AND START THE mlu to AESA radar new weapons and reduced RCS etc.

AFTER that we need to get both LCA 1 inducted ie ALL 40 PLANES by 2017

After this from 2018 start LCA 2 induction

WE CANT AFFORD 2 MASSIVE COSTLY FIGHTER PROGRAMMES SIMULATENOUSLY OF $130M EACH IN 2020 ONWARDS

I SAY SCrAP mmrca now

 

[DMLA]

The JF 17 thread or the JF 17 info pool in the PAF section are the best sources here, but in short, Block 2 will have improvements wrt radar modes, avionics, a fixed refuelling probe and possibly some RCS reductions. Block 3 is expected to get a higher thrust engine (varient of RD33 MK, or Chinese counterpart) and AESA radar, possibly upgraded AAMs.

All in all, the induction and modernisation program of PAF is going pretty well, while we are struggling to induct sufficient numbers of fighters and AWACS because we waited too long for our indigenous developments.

I have not read the threads but I sure hope to god the specs are not based on speculations! Anyways thanks!

 

[jiki]

as french are unwilling to tot of critical tech and ef typhoon is too costly , better not to mention abt us , we left now only with russian that to again mig 35 is too inferior 4 mmrca so one is left with good package of techs and capability and TOT is su-35 ,,,, so if raffy will become a flop show in futr then go for the above so that we can have the largest sukhoi fleet in the world....

nothing coulde be done other than this