MMRCA project: Govt firm on HAL as lead integrator

[SpArK]

Well, I am against buying costly planes. I am of view that we should push for LCA-II and LCA-III with the Tech. available off the shelf or, developed using JV. We can buy and produce these in any numbers we want. This will help us in development of AMCA.

But IAF and MoD folks know better...

You still love those gripens and hornets huh.... LOL>...

 

[Koovie]

Well, I am against buying costly planes. I am of view that we should push for LCA-II and LCA-III with the Tech. available off the shelf or, developed using JV. We can buy and produce these in any numbers we want. This will help us in development of AMCA.

But IAF and MoD folks know better...



I was talking about "+" Gens.... and many people dont agree with the "generation" of fighters being defined by USA....

Who exactly are these people who dont agree with that`? The US is setting standards in almost every military field.
And the need for + gen or .5 gen classification becomes more than evident if you compare an non upgraded F14 with a F 15 Silent Eagle or a Su27 with a Su 35.

 

[janon]

Well, I am against buying costly planes. I am of view that we should push for LCA-II and LCA-III with the Tech. available off the shelf or, developed using JV. We can buy and produce these in any numbers we want. This will help us in development of AMCA.

But IAF and MoD folks know better...

Well, it is precisely because the LCA was constantly getting delayed, that we decided to go for an interim measure of purchasing from foreign sources. If LCA Mk1 was in production by 2005, and LCA mk2 by 2010, and AMCA by 2015 or 2020, we wouldn't have needed Rafales.

But as things stand, none of that happened, and the IAF was wise enough to foresee that, and to start the process of acquiring foreign jets. Their job is to defend the nation, and if the Rafales don't come in the next four years, our air superiority will go for a toss.

Our ability to defend our own airspace itself would be seriously compromised, let alone taking the fight to the enemy.

 

[Koovie]

You people should be realistic: Indian capabilities are much more inferior in nearly every aspect of the aerospace industry to the long established ones of other countries like Russia, the US of France which have over one hundred years of experience and produced thousands of aircraft.

Tejas MK2 will never be produced in +100 numbers because HAL will fail to produce a Tejas MK 2 which is better than a Rafale.
Sure we need to build up an indigenous defense industry, but this will take its time, and we are already striving for more indigenous capabilities. And cooperation with firms like Dassault are already a great step forward.

 

[jha]

You still love those gripens and hornets huh.... LOL>...

Hornet was my second choice. I still favour Gripen

Well, it is precisely because the LCA was constantly getting delayed, that we decided to go for an interim measure of purchasing from foreign sources. If LCA Mk1 was in production by 2005, and LCA mk2 by 2010, and AMCA by 2015 or 2020, we wouldn't have needed Rafales.

But as things stand, none of that happened, and the IAF was wise enough to foresee that, and to start the process of acquiring foreign jets. Their job is to defend the nation, and if the Rafales don't come in the next four years, our air superiority will go for a toss.

Our ability to defend our own airspace itself would be seriously compromised, let alone taking the fight to the enemy.

Only problem with Rafale is that it is coming too late... MRCA should have been inducted in mid 2000's. The induction will probably start in 2016. Home production is unlikely to start before 2018. By then LCA-II will also be ready. FGFA will be ready to be inducted in 2020.

There always will be a better option to import. We have to decide whether we want to be self sufficient or, want to keep importing systems from abroad. Navy has shown the way. Its time AF and Army should start showing confidence in home grown products. Sub-systems can always be imported or, developed .

Anyway I rest my case...

 

[sancho]

Difference of opinion here.

IAF needed Rafale not to fight a capable opponent but a fighter aircraft capable of going on multi-role missions. Su-30 with upgrades can easily fit the bill.

It can't since the upgrades are only ways to reduce shortfalls, like the RCS for example, but it can't equal all technical advantages the Rafale will offer. Especially since PLAAF has similar Flanker versions (latest also will have AESA, IRST, Russian weapons...), Rafale will offer way more advantages countering them and in the offensive strike fields, than the MKI could. A very low RCS, passive detection capabilities, MICA/Meteor combo, AASM/Scalp will offer IAF excellent modern capabilities, while the Super 30 will complement the Rafale in these roles.

On the other hand there is no option other than Akula. Not to forget the immense help the whole package has provided for development of Arihanth class SSBN.. Without Akula submarine, it would have been impossible to train crews of IN to operate a nuclear sub.

The Akula has no bearing for Arihant development (the older nuke sub that we leased in the past had), only to train it's crews, but even that hardly makes the cost of $500 millions worth it. Sending crews to Russia and train them their, as we do now anyway, would be way cheaper.

BTW the Kaveri-Snecma deal has gone for a toss. This just shows the kind of confidence GTRE has on the ToT coming from this deal. Same will be the fate of ToT on Radar.

Even if it is another Ajay Shukla article, the quoted parts from GTRE officials itself confirms that they badly need a foreign partner to go on with Kaveri engine and can't do it alone. If the report is correct, it only shows that they want to put more pressure on the French to provide more techs or to reduce the price, we have seen the same in MMRCA itself, or the redesign of Shakti engine for HALs LUH.
The sad point is, that it once again shows how badly managed Indian projects are, since this could have been done from the start of LCA, or at least when they evaluated new engines for LCA MK2.

Bottom line is, we need to improve our operational and industrial capabilities, that's why licence productions like Rafale, LUH, the coming prop aircraft for IAF, or the P75I for IN, next to jointed developments like Brahmos, Barak 8, FGFA and MTA are crucial procurements and most important for India!

Do you have answer to the question raised by Ajay Shukla…???... Even I can see HAL's answer is not Satisfactory at all..

I find it surprising that HAL had even reacted at all, especially since he often proved that he has limited knowledge of the aero field.

 

[janon]

Hornet was my second choice. I still favour Gripen



Only problem with Rafale is that it is coming too late... MRCA should have been inducted in mid 2000's. The induction will probably start in 2016. Home production is unlikely to start before 2018. By then LCA-II will also be ready. FGFA will be ready to be inducted in 2020.

There always will be a better option to import. We have to decide whether we want to be self sufficient or, want to keep importing systems from abroad. Navy has shown the way. Its time AF and Army should start showing confidence in home grown products. Sub-systems can always be imported or, developed .

Anyway I rest my case...

Let's be clear on one thing - LCA Mk2, even when it comes, will be NOWHERE near the capabilities of a rafale, and these two aircrafts are in different categories. The LCA is supposed to be IAF's low end fighter, and is supposed to beef up numbers. To take the fight to the enemy, we will need rafales. LCA Mk2 cannot strike targets deep inside Tibet, or fly unescorted into Pakistan's heavily defended airspace. The rafales can. While the LCAs will perform the roles of the mig 21 (I don't mean mission wise, I mean in the overall force structure), we will also need aircrafts that will perform what the mirages and mig 29s have been doing too. The medium combat roles.

Also, if you believe that we will have serial production of LCA Mk2 in the same time frame as rafales, you are seriously mistaken. The production line of the rafale is being set up as we speak. LCA Mk 2 is still on paper, and India is a country with no experience in setting up production lines for 4th gen aircrafts. There is no way that LCA mk2 will start rolling out along with the rafales. Even its design has not been finalized, not one prototype has taken to the skies. Rafales have been performing combat missions since the early 2000s, and it is Dassault that is setting up the manufacturing plants at HAL. There is no comparison here, and which lines will start producing fighters first is easy for anyone to guess.

 

[sancho]

Hornet was my second choice. I still favour Gripen

Both choices that wouldn't have give us any important industial advantage.

Only problem with Rafale is that it is coming too late... MRCA should have been inducted in mid 2000's. The induction will probably start in 2016. Home production is unlikely to start before 2018. By then LCA-II will also be ready. FGFA will be ready to be inducted in 2020.

True, but the competition was purposly extended to get more in return as well and Rafale is the only fighter (except of the US fighters) that could be procured in fast production since it is ready developed today, although I guess MoD will remain with only 18 x fighters from France.

 

[janon]

Both choices that wouldn't have give us any important industial advantage.


True, but the competition was purposly extended to get more in return as well and Rafale is the only fighter (except of the US fighters) that could be procured in fast production since it is ready developed today, although I guess MoD will remain with only 18 x fighters from France.

What makes you say gripen wouldn't have given any industrial advantage?

I hope the MoD procures at least another set of 18 directly from France, while upping the numbers to 189 (as widely anticipated). HAL produced fighters are usually at least as expensive as the foreign procured ones, and twice as expensive, if recent reports are anything to go by. We still need local manufacture to develop capabilities, but capabilities can be developed with smaller numbers as well. Money being spent within the country might be an advantage, but then again, from the point of view of operational readiness...

 

[jha]

Both choices that wouldn't have give us any important industial advantage.

Hahahaha...Probably yes... But would have come cheaper....

@ Others,

Lets agree to disagree.. I am of opinion that we should concentrate on FGFA, LCA and AMCA as I dont think Rafale gives us that much...

 

[arp2041]

What makes you say gripen wouldn't have given any industrial advantage?

I hope the MoD procures at least another set of 18 directly from France, while upping the numbers to 189 (as widely anticipated). HAL produced fighters are usually at least as expensive as the foreign procured ones, and twice as expensive, if recent reports are anything to go by. We still need local manufacture to develop capabilities, but capabilities can be developed with smaller numbers as well. Money being spent within the country might be an advantage, but then again, from the point of view of operational readiness...

Gripen uses American engines, Americans wouldn't have agreed on the TOT + Gripen is more or less have the same capabilities as the LCA mk2 will have, we din't had any industrial benefit from it since we already make mk2 on our own.

+ I also think IAF should make Dassault build the first 40 ac, till than we should make the complete infrastructure for the production of Rafale in India. Yes, HAL ac are more costlier (but certainly not double) than foreign built one but we need a local production line since the ac will be operated in IAF for 30-40 years, thus we need a local supplier for engines, radar, spares etc.

 

[Koovie]

Let's be clear on one thing - LCA Mk2, even when it comes, will be NOWHERE near the capabilities of a rafale, and these two aircrafts are in different categories. The LCA is supposed to be IAF's low end fighter, and is supposed to beef up numbers. To take the fight to the enemy, we will need rafales. LCA Mk2 cannot strike targets deep inside Tibet, or fly unescorted into Pakistan's heavily defended airspace. The rafales can. While the LCAs will perform the roles of the mig 21 (I don't mean mission wise, I mean in the overall force structure), we will also need aircrafts that will perform what the mirages and mig 29s have been doing too. The medium combat roles.

Also, if you believe that we will have serial production of LCA Mk2 in the same time frame as rafales, you are seriously mistaken. The production line of the rafale is being set up as we speak. LCA Mk 2 is still on paper, and India is a country with no experience in setting up production lines for 4th gen aircrafts. There is no way that LCA mk2 will start rolling out along with the rafales. Even its design has not been finalized, not one prototype has taken to the skies. Rafales have been performing combat missions since the early 2000s, and it is Dassault that is setting up the manufacturing plants at HAL. There is no comparison here, and which lines will start producing fighters first is easy for anyone to guess.

FINALLY, someone with some common sense

 

[Rocky25]

Gripen uses American engines, Americans wouldn't have agreed on the TOT + Gripen is more or less have the same capabilities as the LCA mk2 will have, we din't had any industrial benefit from it since we already make mk2 on our own.

+ I also think IAF should make Dassault build the first 40 ac, till than we should make the complete infrastructure for the production of Rafale in India. Yes, HAL ac are more costlier (but certainly not double) than foreign built one but we need a local production line since the ac will be operated in IAF for 30-40 years, thus we need a local supplier for engines, radar, spares etc.

Yes India should not depend on US for Offensive weapons... C17 and P8I are OK... But if we buy the fighters with US control, It will be a pain in the *** during war.

I think India should have a policy to manufacture/procure at least 6 fighters every year so that like, if the FGFA or Rafale gets delayed for a year, India should manufacture 6 new Sukhoi 30 MKI with some understanding with Russia!

So that the main stray fighter will be there to entertain the neighbors if they come for adventure. And it is time to allow private companies in Defense! Tata, Mahindras and Ambanis should give tough competition to DRDO!

 

[IND151]

Good, but lets hope that HAL will start building production facilities immediately after the contract is signed.

Hindustan Aeronautics will invest Rs6 billion ($108 million) in two Bengaluru factories for fighter aircraft and engines. The factories will be located at Chellaghatta, which is adjacent to HAL's other production facilities in the Indian city, the company says in a statement.

Indian media reports say one of the factories will produce airframes for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that India plans to acquire. The other will produce MMRCA power plants.

The Indian government is in negotiations with France's Dassault for its Rafale fighter, which earlier this year attained so-called "L1-vendor" status in the 126-aircraft competition. This status signifies that Dassault was the lowest priced bidder for the requirement, allowing it to conduct exclusive negotiations with India's Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) for the fighter deal. A CNC is comprised of a defence programme's key stakeholders, and in the case of MMRCA is likely to include organisations such as the Indian air force and HAL.

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...14HwBw&usg=AFQjCNE0StkfvVhSP0Bzgtg8qI8qc-WgsA

 

[arp2041]

Yes India should not depend on US for Offensive weapons... C17 and P8I are OK... But if we buy the fighters with US control, It will be a pain in the *** during war.

I think India should have a policy to manufacture/procure at least 6 fighters every year so that like, if the FGFA or Rafale gets delayed for a year, India should manufacture 6 new Sukhoi 30 MKI with some understanding with Russia!

So that the main stray fighter will be there to entertain the neighbors if they come for adventure. And it is time to allow private companies in Defense! Tata, Mahindras and Ambanis should give tough competition to DRDO!

6??? mate, HAL already manufactures about 20 MKIs each year besides the MKIs & mig-29k it gets off-the shelf from Russia.

Also by 2017, HAL will be making many more fighters, since it will be producing MKI, Rafale & LCA in parallel.