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Military's role in the identity of Pakistan

Thank God Google or other sites have NOT come up with a translate to Koshur. In that case we would have to read atrocious language from wannabe Kashmiris. :sick:

Who you calling a wannabe Kashmiri you Brown little Bugger ! :mad:

Or Orange little Bugger if I remember correctly - Damn....how can anyone be Orange, reminds me of that episode from Scrubs about that man who drank too much carrot juice ! :unsure:

Language is just a mode of communication not something which is intrinsically linked to one's ethnicity otherwise the Baluch who speak Suleimanki Saraiki or Barahui wouldn't be Baluch just because they don't speak Baluchi anymore but your compatriot just doesn't have enough brain-cells to decipher that ! :crazy:
 
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I can identify two reasons:

1- The immigration of people from other areas diminished the importance of Punjabi language and culture in daily life.
2- The constant charges of misappropriation and extortion made people feel detached from their culture.

I'd add a third to it too :

3- The Punjabi Muslims never developed a sense of an ethno-linguistic nationalism as evidenced by his lack of talk of 'my land, my people, my language' kinda discourse when immigrants like myself were coming to Punjab from nearby regions over the centuries nor did he feel the need to galvanize himself into a Nation under One Ruler or anything of the sort and build an Empire of his own because he never was into that sort of thing nor was he pushed into developing that sense of 'Me under Trouble and therefore I should have my own piece of Land' like the Sikhs were after the Mughals had their go at them.

I think that lack of 'nasal parasti or qaum parasti', in Urdu, is the reason why Punjabis were never fixated on learning or preserving their language and culture that much and that coupled with points 1 and 2 brought upon a desire to adopt a more pan-Pakistani identity where Urdu was elevated as a more worthy language to learn because it represented the Federation !

In a way I'm sad that this happened because Punjabi is such a beautiful language and the culture of Punjab is cherishable - It should've been preserved; however I'm also glad in the sense that maybe if the Punjabis had taken the route that fills one's head with the kind of ethno-linguistic nationalism that demarcates between people where the original vs the local kinda crap finds mention - I, an ethnic Kashmiri, along with tens of thousands like me would probably not have the sense of ownership that we have to Punjab because no one shoved the Punjabi language or the Punjabi culture down our throats.....we learned it just because our friends and our family around us were speaking it and practicing it and that kinda made it feel like our language and our culture and over the generations it really did become our language and our culture.

Take the example of PML N - its the largest party in Punjab and its full of ethnic Kashmiri - this would not happen in Baluchistan, in Sindh, in KP or anywhere else in the region and yet not even their most ardent detractors here in Punjab have thrown a racial slur at them or asked why are Punjabis being ruled by a bunch of Immigrants from the North ?

I think somethings are worth praising - Punjab's Pluralism is one of those things & thats why, within Pakistan, I take great pride in calling myself a Punjabi ! :)

P.S The reason people stare at you when you speak Punjabi in a suit-piece is because you speak Gulabi Punjabi ! :p:
 
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Who you calling a wannabe Kashmiri you Brown little Bugger ! :mad:

Or Orange little Bugger if I remember correctly - Damn....how can anyone be Orange, reminds me of that episode from Scrubs about that man who drank too much carrot juice ! :unsure:

Language is just a mode of communication not something which is intrinsically linked to one's ethnicity otherwise the Baluch who speak Suleimanki Saraiki or Barahui wouldn't be Baluch just because they don't speak Baluchi anymore but your compatriot just doesn't have enough brain-cells to decipher that ! :crazy:

No one is saying that you are a wannabe Kashmiri. Fact of the matter is that a lot of Mirpuris claim to be Kashmiris because they are suffering from self-hatred. These people will in the same breath criticize Dogras but forget that without us, the area would never have been unified into a single political union and therefore, the Mirpuris would never be able to get away with calling themselves Kashmiris!
Dogras always feel proud in stating our ethnicity. We do not look up to Kashmiris. @SarthakGanguly
 
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No one is saying that you are a wannabe Kashmiri. Fact of the matter is that a lot of Mirpuris claim to be Kashmiris because they are suffering from self-hatred. These people will in the same breath criticize Dogras but forget that without us, the area would never have been unified into a single political union and therefore, the Mirpuris would never be able to get away with calling themselves Kashmiris!
Dogras always feel proud in stating our ethnicity. We do not look up to Kashmiris.

Oh bhai Mirpuris are Kashmiris because they're not referring to the ethncity but the nationality/sub-nationality of being from the former Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir who's citizens are referred to as Kashmiris in an all encompassing manner !

As far as the Dogras are concerned - the animosity between them and the mostly Muslims of Kashmir goes back a long time and is well-recorded in the book The Untold Story of the People of Azad Kashmir by Christopher Snedden it is a well-referenced and impartial book (it takes Pakistan to task quite a lot) that talks about the overbearence of the Dogras and the exploitation they took part in under the Maharaja that created a lot of resentment amongst the People living there which caused an uprising long before the Tribals ever thought of picking up arms let alone crossing over.
 
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Oh bhai Mirpuris are Kashmiris because they're not referring to the ethncity but the nationality/sub-nationality of being from the former Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir who's citizens are referred to as Kashmiris in an all encompassing manner !

As far as the Dogras are concerned - the animosity between them and the mostly Muslims of Kashmir goes back a long time and is well-recorded in the book The Untold Story of the People of Azad Kashmir by Christopher Snedden it is a well-referenced and impartial book (it takes Pakistan to task quite a lot) that talks about the overbearence of the Dogras and the exploitation they took part in under the Maharaja that created a lot of resentment amongst the People living there which caused an uprising long before the Tribals ever thought of picking up arms let alone crossing over.

Kashmiri is an ethnicity on this side of the border. Kashmiris do not consider Mirpuris kashmiris. It is an ethnic group who have a distinct history from Mipruris, a distinct culture, distinct appearance and so on. I would never consider myself Kashmiri.
Btw whatever animosity there was, it does not exist anymore. Dogras and Kashmiris get along fairly well. There are thousands of Kashmiri muslims living in Jammu while dogra hindus do not move to Kashmir because of the radicalization of Kashmir. I respect real Kashmiris not wannabes.
 
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Kashmiri is an ethnicity on this side of the border. Kashmiris do not consider Mirpuris kashmiris. It is an ethnic group who have a distinct history from Mipruris, a distinct culture, distinct appearance and so on. I would never consider myself Kashmiri.
Btw whatever animosity there was, it does not exist anymore. Dogras and Kashmiris get along fairly well. There are thousands of Kashmiri muslims living in Jammu while dogra hindus do not move to Kashmir because of the radicalization of Kashmir. I respect real Kashmiris not wannabes.

Whether Kashmiris do or they don't is irrelevant; what is relevant is that the people from Mirpur are speaking in terms of a sub-nationality not an ethnicity even if quite a few from amongst them are ethnic Kashmiris in addition to Jammuites and Paharis !
 
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Whether Kashmiris do or they don't is irrelevant; what is relevant is that the people from Mirpur are speaking in terms of a sub-nationality not an ethnicity even if quite a few from amongst them are ethnic Kashmiris in addition to Jammuites and Paharis !

Even I have some Kashmiri pandit ancestry on my paternal side but I won't call myself one. Anyway leave it. On this side of the border, Kashmir is restricted to the Kashmir valley. The state is called Jammu and Kashmir, not just Kashmir. The Jammu region extends all the way up to the Kashmir Valley (includes pahari areas like Poonch, Rajouri, Doda) and historically, the Mirpur region fell into the Jammu region. Even pahari muslims do not call themselves kashmiris on the Indian side so I find it very curious that Mirpuris do. It does not make sense to me.
 
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Even I have some Kashmiri pandit ancestry on my paternal side but I won't call myself one. Anyway leave it. On this side of the border, Kashmir is restricted to the Kashmir valley. The state is called Jammu and Kashmir, not just Kashmir. The Jammu region extends all the way up to the Kashmir Valley (includes pahari areas like Poonch, Rajouri, Doda) and historically, the Mirpur region fell into the Jammu region. Even pahari muslims do not call themselves kashmiris on the Indian side so I find it very curious that Mirpuris do. It does not make sense to me.

Thats because your mention of your pandit ancestry continues to give tell-tale signs that you're still viewing this in an ethnic manner whereas the people from Mirpur (quite a few of whom are from the Kashmir Valley in fact) are referring to it in a sub-national manner as citizens of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir who were called Kashmiris and now citizens of Azad Jammu and Kashmir who are again called 'Kashmiris' !

Try to separate the ethnicity from the sub-national identification we're talking about !
 
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Thats because your mention of your pandit ancestry continues to give tell-tale signs that you're still viewing this in an ethnic manner whereas the people from Mirpur (quite a few of whom are from the Kashmir Valley in fact) are referring to it in a sub-national manner as citizens of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir who were called Kashmiris and now citizens of Azad Jammu and Kashmir who are again called 'Kashmiris' !

Try to separate the ethnicity from the sub-national identification we're talking about !

I understand what you're saying but where did the Jammu part go? Why are citizens of J&K called Kashmiris? What similarities do ethnic Kashmiris have with Mirpuris in culture? Kashmiri culture is Central Asian - it has nothing to do with South Asia.

Anyway leave it. I can already anticipate your response. We will just go around in circles.
 
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That's not how Dogras originally looked. These are modern cultural photos. If one finds old images of Dogras, this is how they looked like:

maharaja%20gulab%20singh.jpg

images

Maharaja%20Shri%20Ranbir%20Singh%20Jammu.jpg


And a hundred years ago Punjabi women also originally wore Ghagras/Lehngas not Salwar Kamiz like today

I posted that photo from Himachal, he was claiming Himachalis as Dogra and Punjabi by culture.
 
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@INDIC
@Jaggu

I will post pictures of some Dogras here and let you guys decide if they can pass for punjabis :D Btw none of these people are celebrities. Just random people through google

ss01.jpg


Talha.png


Salaria_Safia.jpg


10254019_743220329044008_7129490023048245034_n.jpg


Jammu BJP winner - Jugal Kishore Sharma

Sh.-Jugal-Kishore-Sharma1.jpg


559897_341651612619208_383001688_n.jpg


photo.jpg
 
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@jandk Some looks similar to Punjabis, others have mainly Pahari type look. I have noticed hazel coloured eyes very common among Dogras, even my Dogra friends had them.
 
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@jandk Some looks similar to Punjabis, others have mainly Pahari type look. I have noticed hazel coloured eyes very common among Dogras, even my Dogra friends had them.

Coloured eyes are surprisingly common among Dogras. I have family members who have them. I'm not sure what you mean by pahari though. The people most similar to us are people in North west region of Himachal- I think the Kangra region
 
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@INDIC
@Jaggu

I will post pictures of some Dogras here and let you guys decide if they can pass for punjabis :D Btw none of these people are celebrities. Just random people through google

ss01.jpg


Talha.png


Salaria_Safia.jpg


10254019_743220329044008_7129490023048245034_n.jpg


Jammu BJP winner - Jugal Kishore Sharma

Sh.-Jugal-Kishore-Sharma1.jpg


559897_341651612619208_383001688_n.jpg


photo.jpg


In Pak surely..

P.S:The uncle looks like a guy from some village in gujranwala... :lol:
 
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Coloured eyes are surprisingly common among Dogras. I have family members who have them. I'm not sure what you mean by pahari though. The people most similar to us are people in North west region of Himachal- I think the Kangra region

The fourth picture, such looks is not common in Punjab. I may be wrong.
 
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