MIG-29k numbers and naval rafale

[Alphacharlie]

Navy is Going for 3rd Sqn of Mig 29k. This SQN will act as OCU.
This news is Confirmed, 20 more 29ks will be Ordered FY 2016-17

 

[Immanuel]

Perhaps Norwegian Air Force Major Morten Hanche, who is the RNoAF's chief test pilot on the F-35, can help explain this?

Over at the Americanmilitraryforum - where most of the American members here have moved to - Technofox, who is PDF's @Technogaianist , the other Norwegian girl on PDF (my girlfriend), has a great translation of an article explaining why the F-35 can turn, can climb, and can run.

It's under the USAF section, the thread's called - If not the F-35, then what else and the post is #13.

I had posted a poorly translated version of the same article in the Nordic Military thread on PDF, in the Europe and Russia section, but the last database problem wiped it out.

@Immanuel you may wish to look at it too.

Thank you, I have been following the test flights done by Dutch and Norwegian pilots, so far, apart from minor gripes about the F-35, the feedback is pretty good, the aircraft is still 4 years from FOC & all it's sensors are being upgraded possibly with GaN, also the engine is being uprated, all in all by FOC it will again be a gen ahead of anything operational.

 

[kaykay]

Sir delivery period for 36 rafales is 7 years. First rafale will come to india after 3 years of date of of agreement sign. If agreement is inked on may 2016 first rafale will come to india april 2019. Rest will be delivered between april 2019 to april 2023

A lot has changed in between. Now offset is 50% instead of 30% earlier and first Rafale will come in 18 months.

 

[MKC]

Ok friends, don't fight it will be clear very soon when will Rafale come & how many, we waited for more than 10 years, can't we wait 10 days?
It's not too far whether IAC-I will have Rafale-M, it will be clear soon just with the contract.
About Mig29K it also will be clear before getting 45 Migs, if navy wants more Migs, Navy will clear order for same before getting 45, otherwise confirmed NLCA, 45 Migs can't be on both ACs because navy wants to become strongest air force in the subcontinent, only 45 Migs can't serve both ACs, we may have $100B but not less than $80B by 2020, as pension & salaries will not increase every year as this year, so more money for procurement, but can't be sure about so many Rafale.

 

[kaykay]

Sir still no official confirmation . We will know the details of this deal when agreement is signed.

Well this is what floating in media right now. Old clauses like 30% offset, first rafale in 3years after signing the deal etc are null and void now.

 

[anant_s]

Why not get a 2 more squadrons of MiG 29!
The logic here is, while we know how IAC 1 would operate, picture is still not clear on IAC 2. There are 2 scenarios here:
1. Assume that IAC 2 will be a similar 45000 Ton AC like IAC 1 which i assume has been offered by CSL to IN, MiG 29 can operate from the same with proven performance. it would also offer cost benefit and might be easier to maintain than a new aircraft type. Rafale M can be chosen at a later date for Vishal class ACs when its size, powerplant and launch methods (EMALS etc) are decided upon. Also by that time, IAF experience on operating Rafale (assuming a date of 2020 and beyond) would help IN in making a decision.
2. In case there is a rapid change in thinking, IN MiG 29 can be shifted to IAF or other jobs such as Coastal and Defense of locations like A&N islands.
Since MiG 29 lines are still up and running and the platform can be modified with superior avionics and little threat (based on its capability) foreseeable in future (J-31 perhaps), i believe it would be a nice cost effective solution.

 

[Immanuel]

Ok friends, don't fight it will be clear very soon when will Rafale come & how many, we waited for more than 10 years, can't we wait 10 days?
It's not too far whether IAC-I will have Rafale-M, it will be clear soon just with the contract.
About Mig29K it also will be clear before getting 45 Migs, if navy wants more Migs, Navy will clear order for same before getting 45, otherwise confirmed NLCA, 45 Migs can't be on both ACs because navy wants to become strongest air force in the subcontinent, only 45 Migs can't serve both ACs, we may have $100B but not less than $80B by 2020, as pension & salaries will not increase every year as this year, so more money for procurement, but can't be sure about so many Rafale.

The INS Viky has max space for 24 Mig-29Ks and 10 helos, as of July 2015, 33 were delivered, the remaning 12 will be delivered during 2016-2017.
While around 24 are deployed in rotation when Viky goes out, the remaining stay at INS Hansa and INS Dega on the East. The IAC Vikrant has a capacity of upto 30 fixed wing aircraft and 10 helos. I believe when the IAC is ready, 42-44 Migs with be split between the both carriers i.e 21-22 each, remaining 1-3 will be based on shore at INS Hansa for pilot traning specifically on the STBF runway. IAC will be based on the East. Both carriers will host LCA-N PVs and LSPs for testing eventually as well when the LCA-N is ready for carrier testing, so actually both carriers don't have enough space for a few Rafales. May be they can add a few more Migs on the IAC due to slightly higher capacity.

Sir still no official confirmation . We will know the details of this deal when agreement is signed.

It appears, indeed the first aircraft should arrive in 20 months

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

Most of your post demonstrates stupidity, what work does the mig-29k have on the shore? Stop being ridiculous. Both the Viky and IAC can carry about 30 birds including choppers. Had the IAC been on time it would already be flying the mig-29k, currently the migs are being rotated for flight time on the deck every time Viky goes out for the lack of another carrier. Moreso, the first batch of 36 rafales will only complete delivery by around 2023 for IAF. So there is no space for the Rafale on the IAC. IAC-2 construction can't begin unless IAC-1 is complete and clearance is no where to be seen, even if cleared it will take another 7 years go out for sea trials.

Responding to such nonsense is a waste of time. How is the F-35 a failure when it has more aircraft produced than the Rafale, had more confirmed orders & continues to slowly full fill the requirements as the FOC draws near. Far less ambitious projects like the Rafale took years for them to have single exports regardless of supposed great performance. While the people testing the F-35 are all in all quite happy with the aircraft including the Dutch, Norwegian, soon Israelis too. Do you really think the Israelis would invest in an aircraft if it wasn't capable or the Japs for that matter?

You mention figures yet how is it that we seem to have to cut budgets for the army particularly the new strike corps.

Stop posting garbage

Wow, just wow on your sheer stupidity.

Training, overhaul, other commitments. Do you think that 100% of the fighter force are deployed at any one time?

100% force never deployed during peace time, the figure hover from 60-70%. When Command get orders from MoD that be ready for activating OP Plan, then Navy start to think about deploying 100% force.

The IN has purposefully sat back with their NMMRCA requirement waiting for the outcome of the IAF's buy.

The Navy buy the Rafale M for sure.


[/QUOTE]

Ok friends, don't fight it will be clear very soon when will Rafale come & how many, we waited for more than 10 years, can't we wait 10 days?
It's not too far whether IAC-I will have Rafale-M, it will be clear soon just with the contract.
About Mig29K it also will be clear before getting 45 Migs, if navy wants more Migs, Navy will clear order for same before getting 45, otherwise confirmed NLCA, 45 Migs can't be on both ACs because navy wants to become strongest air force in the subcontinent, only 45 Migs can't serve both ACs, we may have $100B but not less than $80B by 2020, as pension & salaries will not increase every year as this year, so more money for procurement, but can't be sure about so many Rafale.

IAC-1 will never have Rafale-M, IAC-2 will.

Rafale-M always designed for CATOBAR, and not STOBAR. IAC-1 will have MiG-29 K.

A


Not a chance. The IAF version won't be ready before 2030 at the earliest and unfortunatly there is no indication the IN has any invovlement in the AMCA project as of now and thus navalising the AMCA will take even longer.

That is sheer stupidity to say AMCA R&D efforts complete by 2026, when we all know how much time it took to develop F-35 by USA, and how much time it took to develop Rafale by France.

 

[zebra7]

Impossible, the IAC-2 is going to be CATOBAR configured so the N-LCA won't be able to take off from it,

Brother are you sure that the Ski Jump Combat fighter plane cannot takeoff from the CATOBAR carrier other than not certified.

@PARIKRAMA @MilSpec

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

The INS Viky has max space for 24 Mig-29Ks and 10 helos, as of July 2015, 33 were delivered, the remaning 12 will be delivered during 2016-2017.
While around 24 are deployed in rotation when Viky goes out, the remaining stay at INS Hansa and INS Dega on the East. The IAC Vikrant has a capacity of upto 30 fixed wing aircraft and 10 helos. I believe when the IAC is ready, 42-44 Migs with be split between the both carriers i.e 21-22 each, remaining 1-3 will be based on shore at INS Hansa for pilot traning specifically on the STBF runway. IAC will be based on the East. Both carriers will host LCA-N PVs and LSPs for testing eventually as well when the LCA-N is ready for carrier testing, so actually both carriers don't have enough space for a few Rafales. May be they can add a few more Migs on the IAC due to slightly higher capacity.



It appears, indeed the first aircraft should arrive in 20 months

How you got the numbers 30 fixed wings & 10 helos? You got any proof or firing blank shots in air?

Brother are you sure that the Ski Jump Combat fighter plane cannot takeoff from the CATOBAR carrier other than not certified.

@PARIKRAMA @MilSpec

They can, but they need certification.

And for certification one need ground facility equipped with EMALS or steam catapult on ground.

 

[zebra7]

They can, but they need certification.

And for certification one need ground facility equipped with EMALS on ground.

And Certification is given by the some specific certification organisation of a country, do we have anything like that in India ?? Definately NO. P.S Heard that Rafale-M is the only non US fighter plane certified for the US Carriers operation.

 

[Jamwal's]

Mig 29K is a far better choice thanRafale.Since Navy has vast experience of operating VTOL Harrier the logical substitute is F 35 for strike role.

In any case Mig 29K is among the prime air superiority fighter of Asia with superior Radar,low RCS and long range BVR.It outclass F 16 blk 52 and even MKI in BVR engagement due to its RCS.

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

And Certification is given by the some specific certification organisation of a country, do we have anything like that in India ?? Definately NO. P.S Heard that Rafale-M is the only non US fighter plane certified for the US Carriers operation.

Didnt we built STOBAR ground facility for certification. Why you unable to see beyond horizon?


Also, Rafale - M certified to operate from steam catapults, there is nothing like in world certification for carrier.

 

[Immanuel]

How you got the numbers 30 fixed wings & 10 helos? You got any proof or firing blank shots in air?


They can, but they need certification.

And for certification one need ground facility equipped with EMALS or steam catapult on ground.

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/ebook.asp?Id=140203043725-c916f52beb13022808869dac8e2950ae&Name=sp_s_naval_forces_01_-_2014&Info=SP's Naval Forces February - March 2014&t=1359441862394&r=85&mob=10055951&year=2014

As per retired admiral Sushil Ramsay, the IAC would carry upto 30 fixed wing aircraft. Stop being a dumb *** and do some googling yourself before asking me shit.

Wow, just wow on your sheer stupidity.
QUOTE]

Wow, just wow on your sheer chutiyagiri

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Why not get a 2 more squadrons of MiG 29!
The logic here is, while we know how IAC 1 would operate, picture is still not clear on IAC 2. There are 2 scenarios here:
1. Assume that IAC 2 will be a similar 45000 Ton AC like IAC 1 which i assume has been offered by CSL to IN, MiG 29 can operate from the same with proven performance. it would also offer cost benefit and might be easier to maintain than a new aircraft type. Rafale M can be chosen at a later date for Vishal class ACs when its size, powerplant and launch methods (EMALS etc) are decided upon. Also by that time, IAF experience on operating Rafale (assuming a date of 2020 and beyond) would help IN in making a decision.
2. In case there is a rapid change in thinking, IN MiG 29 can be shifted to IAF or other jobs such as Coastal and Defense of locations like A&N islands.
Since MiG 29 lines are still up and running and the platform can be modified with superior avionics and little threat (based on its capability) foreseeable in future (J-31 perhaps), i believe it would be a nice cost effective solution.

I think the Naval approach is on the lines with strategic thinking and in house uninterrupted supply chain in case of war which is under their control- If Migs were to have such a significant role in that regard- Navy could've gone for the Migs in a big way- perhaps with deep customization AESA radars and locally manufactured weapons- Rafale fits in the profile perfectly If news about MII is true- And given the cost factor- maintenance and SFC all key during carrier operations- I have seen Rafale-M IMO with little help It can do ski-Jump- For A&N Islands I think Su30MKI and Jaguars are better options 4 MKIs there could do the Job of 20 Migs- 45 Migs in the Navy is enough for Vicky and Raising combat pilots for them- Until Tejas Navy and Rafale M can be inducted in good numbers- Future improvements in Migs highly unlikely too Mig 35 is going nowhere- Russian Navy too has not shown much enthusiasm and take Migs as stopgap measure Just to keep their Naval Air Arm operational-