MIG-29k numbers and naval rafale

[Abingdonboy]

We have 45 Mig-29K, which will be split between the INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, IN doesn't need more aircraft as far as these 2 carriers are concerned.

Assuming 75% availabilty that fleet of 45 MiG-29Ks is reduced to 33 at any one time and this is nowhere near sufficent to support 2 carriers and shore based support/training ops- not even close.

The 45 MiG-29Ks were explictly sold to the IN to form the Viky's airwing, the IN has at no point said they are for the IAC-1, if the IN was going to have the MiG-29K on the IAC-1 they should have placed more orders some time ago.

Furthermore, if the plans of a sister ship to the Vikrant become a relaity then by 2023 the IN will have 3 STOBAR carriers with just 45 planes.

The Rafale-M will be made in India (unlike the MiG-29K), will have more commonality with the IAF's fleet for longer (Rafales will be in the IAF for another 40 years, the MiG-29UPGs will ve out of service in 20) and will allow the IN to have a single platform for their STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers.

The IN has thought about this extensively.

N-AMCA should be ready for testing around 2026,

Not a chance. The IAF version won't be ready before 2030 at the earliest and unfortunatly there is no indication the IN has any invovlement in the AMCA project as of now and thus navalising the AMCA will take even longer.

INS Vishal will have N-AMCA and LCA MK-2

Impossible, the IAC-2 is going to be CATOBAR configured so the N-LCA won't be able to take off from it,

The IN is far more progressive and won't settle for a 4.5 gen aircraft in 5th gen timelines.

Don't be duped by this. What can a 5th gen fighter do that a 4.5++ gen fighter like the Rafale can't do? This hype arpund 5th gen has been drummed up by LM's PR office but there utility of such festures is highly questionable and especially when your pursuit of 5th gen features comprimises outright performance (as seen on the F-35). The IN is progressive like you say and appreciate they want the most capable fighters- the Rafale-M thus has a heck of a lot of scope to enter service.


@PARIKRAMA

 

[MKC]

We have 45 Mig-29K, which will be split between the INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, IN doesn't need more aircraft as far as these 2 carriers are concerned. INS Vishal is over 10-12 years away. N-AMCA should be ready for testing around 2026, so the INS Vishal will have N-AMCA and LCA MK-2. Rafale-M is highly unlikely in those timelines. The IN is far more progressive and won't settle for a 4.5 gen aircraft in 5th gen timelines.

I think it's better to have N-LCA on IAC-I than Mig29K, IN Air Arm is planning to become strongest air force in subcontinent in near future, IN will not stop on Mig29K for IAC-I will get a aircraft which will built through MII as Rafale is going to invest around ₹30,000 crore in India so it's most probable that IN will get Rafale-M for IAC-I or N-LCA, as IN have ordered around 40 NLCA, around 20 may go to INS Baaz.
@PARIKRAMA & @[URL='https://defence.pk/members/abingdonboy.28303/']Abingdonboy[/URL] can you tell me can/will INS Baaz host NLCA?

 

[Immanuel]

Assuming 75% availabilty that fleet of 45 MiG-29Ks is reduced to 33 at any one time and this is nowhere near sufficent to support 2 carriers and shore based support/training ops- not even close.

The 45 MiG-29Ks were explictly sold to the IN to form the Viky's airwing, the IN has at no point said they are for the IAC-1, if the IN was going to have the MiG-29K on the IAC-1 they should have placed more orders some time ago.

Furthermore, if the plans of a sister ship to the Vikrant become a relaity then by 2023 the IN will have 3 STOBAR carriers with just 45 planes.

The Rafale-M will be made in India (unlike the MiG-29K), will have more commonality with the IAF's fleet for longer (Rafales will be in the IAF for another 40 years, the MiG-29UPGs will ve out of service in 20) and will allow the IN to have a single platform for their STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers.

The IN has thought about this extensively.


Not a chance. The IAF version won't be ready before 2030 at the earliest and unfortunatly there is no indication the IN has any invovlement in the AMCA project as of now and thus navalising the AMCA will take even longer.


Impossible, the IAC-2 is going to be CATOBAR configured so the N-LCA won't be able to take off from it,



Don't be duped by this. What can a 5th gen fighter do that a 4.5++ gen fighter like the Rafale can't do? This hype arpund 5th gen has been drummed up by LM's PR office but there utility of such festures is highly questionable and especially when your pursuit of 5th gen features comprimises outright performance (as seen on the F-35). The IN is progressive like you say and appreciate they want the most capable fighters- the Rafale-M thus has a heck of a lot of scope to enter service.


@PARIKRAMA

45 Mig-29K are not based on the Viky. IN at no point said it will base the Rafale on the IAC-1 either. Plans for sister ship of the IAC are not finalized and even if they did, it won't be ready before 2027, well past the day for Rafale orders. As for AMCA, sure it may get FOC in 2030 but chances so will the INS Vishal, it is no where near as ready as its still on the drawing board.

Rafale is a 4.5 gen aircraft, regardless what Rafale fan boys and Dassault claim.

I think it's better to have N-LCA on IAC-I than Mig29K, IN Air Arm is planning to become strongest air force in subcontinent in near future, IN will not stop on Mig29K for IAC-I will get a aircraft which will built through MII as Rafale is going to invest around ₹30,000 crore in India so it's most probable that IN will get Rafale-M for IAC-I or N-LCA, as IN have ordered around 40 NLCA, around 20 may go to INS Baaz.
@PARIKRAMA & @[URL='https://defence.pk/members/abingdonboy.28303/']Abingdonboy[/URL] can you tell me can/will INS Baaz host NLCA?

IN already has 45 aircraft and half will be on the Viky and another half on the IAC. Besides Rafale-M even if ordered for the IAC-1 is too late by around 6 years as even the IAF's 1st batch of 36 won't be ready before end of 2023, by then the IAC will be using the Mig-29K FOC and LCA MK1/ LCA MK-2 under trials. Moreso, we speak like this entire deal is done. Finalizing an order for 36 off the shelf rafales and 90 MII for IAF in itself will be achivement if done.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

As far as Rafales for navy are concerned we can say

Hunooz Dilli door ast --- We are quite far away from our destination

 

[Immanuel]

They keep throwing around numbers like 300 Rafales, but if this happens. We might as well cancel AMCA and many other projects as the funds will dry up. Buy a minimum of 90 to a max of126 Rafales, 90 for the 5 air commands and may be 36 for SFC and get it over with. Invest in the AMCA. Get it ready for 1st flight around 2023 and FOC around 2028 also with the IN.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

They keep throwing around numbers like 300 Rafales, but if this happens. We might as well cancel AMCA and many other projects as the funds will dry up. Buy a minimum of 90 to a max of126 Rafales, 90 for the 5 air commands and may be 36 for SFC and get it over with. Invest in the AMCA. Get it ready for 1st flight around 2023 and FOC around 2028 also with the IN.

It's possible for india. One thing india does have is virtual unlimited funds for foreign weapons purchases.

 

[Abingdonboy]

45 Mig-29K are not based on the Viky.

IN already has 45 aircraft and half will be on the Viky and another half on the IAC.

Nope but at least 22-24 are and a further 12-16 are required on the shore at any one time for training and support duties, there is no way that just 45 MiG-29Ks can support 2 aircraft carriers.

IN at no point said it will base the Rafale on the IAC-1 either.

The IN has not yet announced its plans.

Plans for sister ship of the IAC are not finalized and even if they did, it won't be ready before 2027

2027? If work on it is begun in 2018/19 it will be in service by 2024/5.

Rafale is a 4.5 gen aircraft, regardless what Rafale fan boys and Dassault claim.

No one is disputing that and still it will be the most advanced fighter in all of Asia for the forseeable future.

Besides Rafale-M even if ordered for the IAC-1 is too late by around 6 years as even the IAF's 1st batch of 36 won't be ready before end of 2023,

What? The first Rafales for the IAF will be arriving in 2019, why would it take 7 years to deliver the first batch of Rafales?

They keep throwing around numbers like 300 Rafales, but if this happens. We might as well cancel AMCA and many other projects as the funds will dry up.

Have you personally sat down with the Fin Min and scrutinised the projected budgets for the next 20 years? Between 2014 and 2022 alone the Indian military had $310-330 billion USD to spend on CAPEX, at least $5BN USD has already been returned to the Fin Min since then in unspent CAPEX. The notion that the AMCA's funding will be affected by the Rafale purchase is sheer nonsense.

Furthermore, the AMCA will be funded through the ADA and NOT out of the IAF's budget so it's pretty foolish to suggest the IAF is diverting funds from the AMCA when they don't spend a ruppee on its development.

Invest in the AMCA. Get it ready for 1st flight around 2023 and FOC around 2028 also with the IN.

Anyway, the entire premise of this post is that the AMCA will be a success based purely on the funding it receives but recent examples have shown us that funds do not inherently lead to results- the F-35 is the most well funded fighter project in history and yet it is still an abysmal failure.

 

[MKC]

Anyway, the entire premise of this post is that the AMCA will be a success based purely on the funding it receives but recent examples have shown us that funds do not inherently lead to results- the F-35 is the most well funded fighter project in history and yet it is still an abysmal failure.

I think F35 is a successful project, you know F22 in 1990s(1997) was a success, how can you say F35 is failure?
I can see time in near future that F35 will be better than F22, you difference between first F16 & today's F16(or F16 in 2005 11 years ago), F35 in 2025 will be such a aircraft that no one may not able to chalange it.
However I don't know much.

 

[v9s]

75% is not bad for a heavy weight twin engined air dominance fighter and a Russian one at that. Even if the F-16 has 100% availability rates (which they don't) they will still be outnumbered >2:1 by a superior plane. You're meant to offset a numerical disadvantage with a qualitative advantage but the PAF has not been able to do that.

Except it's NOT 75%...more like 50%

 

[Abingdonboy]

Except it's NOT 75%...more like 50%

50%? Iot was 65% at the end of 2015 and will be 75% by the end of 2016.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ty-could-go-up-to-75/articleshow/50075387.cms

 

[v9s]

50%? Iot was 65% at the end of 2015 and will be 75% by the end of 2016.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ty-could-go-up-to-75/articleshow/50075387.cms

Shoulda coulda woulda

 

[Abingdonboy]

Shoulda coulda woulda

 

[Immanuel]

Nope but at least 22-24 are and a further 12-16 are required on the shore at any one time for training and support duties, there is no way that just 45 MiG-29Ks can support 2 aircraft carriers.

The IN has not yet announced its plans.
2027? If work on it is begun in 2018/19 it will be in service by 2024/5.

No one is disputing that and still it will be the most advanced fighter in all of Asia for the forseeable future.


What? The first Rafales for the IAF will be arriving in 2019, why would it take 7 years to deliver the first batch of Rafales?
Have you personally sat down with the Fin Min and scrutinised the projected budgets for the next 20 years? Between 2014 and 2022 alone the Indian military had $310-330 billion USD to spend on CAPEX, at least $5BN USD has already been returned to the Fin Min since then in unspent CAPEX. The notion that the AMCA's funding will be affected by the Rafale purchase is sheer nonsense.

Furthermore, the AMCA will be funded through the ADA and NOT out of the IAF's budget so it's pretty foolish to suggest the IAF is diverting funds from the AMCA when they don't spend a ruppee on its development.

Anyway, the entire premise of this post is that the AMCA will be a success based purely on the funding it receives but recent examples have shown us that funds do not inherently lead to results- the F-35 is the most well funded fighter project in history and yet it is still an abysmal failure.

Most of your post demonstrates stupidity, what work does the mig-29k have on the shore? Stop being ridiculous. Both the Viky and IAC can carry about 30 birds including choppers. Had the IAC been on time it would already be flying the mig-29k, currently the migs are being rotated for flight time on the deck every time Viky goes out for the lack of another carrier. Moreso, the first batch of 36 rafales will only complete delivery by around 2023 for IAF. So there is no space for the Rafale on the IAC. IAC-2 construction can't begin unless IAC-1 is complete and clearance is no where to be seen, even if cleared it will take another 7 years go out for sea trials.

Responding to such nonsense is a waste of time. How is the F-35 a failure when it has more aircraft produced than the Rafale, had more confirmed orders & continues to slowly full fill the requirements as the FOC draws near. Far less ambitious projects like the Rafale took years for them to have single exports regardless of supposed great performance. While the people testing the F-35 are all in all quite happy with the aircraft including the Dutch, Norwegian, soon Israelis too. Do you really think the Israelis would invest in an aircraft if it wasn't capable or the Japs for that matter?

You mention figures yet how is it that we seem to have to cut budgets for the army particularly the new strike corps.

Stop posting garbage

 

[dadeechi]

It's possible for india. One thing india does have is virtual unlimited funds for foreign weapons purchases.

There is only one country in the world that has unlimited money and that country is not India.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Most of your post demonstrates stupidity, what work does the mig-29k have on the shore?

Training, overhaul, other commitments. Do you think that 100% of the fighter force are deployed at any one time?

Had the IAC been on time it would already be flying the mig-29k

The IN has purposefully sat back with their NMMRCA requirement waiting for the outcome of the IAF's buy.

Moreso, the first batch of 36 rafales will only complete delivery by around 2023 for IAF.

2023? Really? The first IAF Rafales are arriving in early 2018 and it will take 5 years to deliver all 36? Does this sound plausible to you? By 2023 there will be 50+ Rafales with the IAF and perhaps 20 with the IN (maybe more).

How is the F-35 a failure

Let's not get into this here but "Can't Turn, Can't Climb, Can't Run" comes to mind. It's a highly comrimised design that is massively over budget and very delayed.

when it has more aircraft produced than the Rafale

In no way shape or form has the F-35 been produced in more numbers than the Rafale thus far.

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

While the people testing the F-35 are all in all quite happy with the aircraft including the Dutch, Norwegian, soon Israelis too. Do you really think the Israelis would invest in an aircraft if it wasn't capable or the Japs for that matter?

The F-35 was forced down the throats of the Israelis.

https://warisboring.com/israel-prefers-f-15-silent-eagles-to-more-f-35s-ca9789521b6f#.uwxu0qy78

You mention figures yet how is it that we seem to have to cut budgets for the army particularly the new strike corps.

There never was any budget for the MSC, the GoI has rightly cut the proposed size to make the MSC more realistic. The IA is in its own unique mess with the lowest CAPEX-OPEX ratio of all three forces (by FAR).


My friend @PARIKRAMA please add where needed.