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Mig 29 bought for BAF?

@kalu miah
I got ur point but in that case i would suggest that BD should go for Awacs(better go for the new russian one for easy compatibility) n better SAM system along with upgrading ur mig n 10-15 new mig29 smts as awacs will provide u with enhenced radar coverage n SAMs will help to secure ur economic assets as BD has a very limited land mass with massive population which even further increases the need for better SAMs

i think it will satisfy the current BD security need n in future if BD is ready to increase its defense exp to atleast 3% of gdp then u can go for su35 or any other fighter n these migs will serve as a second line of defense
 
Chinese avionics are quiet good now and on many cases they surpass western avionics
Many would disagree.
Do you have any evidence of this? It sounds rather far fetched.

The evidence(of the Chinese having surpassed the Russians) is right there, even Russian officials admit to that. Here's the excerpt I posted earlier from CIDEX(Chinese Defence Electronics expo):

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters. Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing. The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious. “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”

Earlier, the situation was reversed with the Chinese going to the Russians to get components they could out-source.

"Gripen" is not an ordinary fighter & It's maintenance cost is very low ...
- MHJ ...

Gripen's operating costs are around half the F-16's. Our JFT costs ONE-THIRD the F-16's. Senior AF officials, including the Pak AF chief(at Dubai 2012) have publically stated this. Quiet an achievement I'd say, this means pilots get to train more(extra flight hours, lower costs), be more effective, etc.

J10 looks like a very nice platform, newer than both of the above, based on Israeli Lavi.

I think Pakistan is getting an export version. There is a smaller JF17, but obviously j10 is the best fighter China has made so far.

Where did you hear that? Pakistan chose the J-10 over going for a larger fleet of F-16s, Pakistan's President even sat in a J-10A somewhere in 2003/4. The FC-20/J-10B development was effected by PAF input, and there are dozens of Pakistani aeronautical engineers in Chengdu. @eaglehannan(on a sister Pak defence forum) posted alot of info he got from Pakistani engineers in Chengdu, also talked about how some of them were educated in Chinese aeronautics institutes, while some were educated in British institutes.

So I don't think it's fair to say that Pakistan is getting some "watered down" export version of the J-10.

Also, about the JF17. One of the reasons the aircraft's development costs were relatively low, was that many avionics and electronics researched and developed for the J-10, were "ported" to the JF-17. The KLJ-7 radar on the JF17, is the exact same design as the KLJ-10 on the J-10, except with a smaller T/R dish to accomodate the slightly smaller nose cone. The radar's compatible with the exact same frontline weapons suite the J-10A/B uses. That means it uses the latest Chinese weaponry, like the SD-10B that is superior to the Russian BVR R-77. If you research into it, even western sources like Janes called it roughly at par with AIM-120 C5's(slightly older AMRAAMs).

Aircrafts are complex beasts, combat performance is effected by many different factors and how all these different avionics components perform together. With alot of avionics in the JF17 having derived from the J-10, the only major difference is the bigger engine(0.4 Mach speed difference, Mach 1.8 vs Mach 2.2), and the bigger airframe enables more weight(carries 11 hardpoints vs 7). This stuff comes at a considerable cost though, J-10 costs around 1.5 to 2x what JF17 does(15-25 million USD vs 40 million+). For China(which is one of the biggest countries in the world), J-10's larger range means they can cover more territory with fewer jets. Other than that, they carry the exact same weapons suite, common/derived radar, bunch of stuff is common.

The PLAAF still sees the value in JF17 and CAC officials say PLAAF has been testing the aircraft. It was reported in 2011 that the FC-1 passed some sort of tests and met PLAAF's criteria. They are developing their own WS-13B Turbofan engines for this aircraft though, and I don't think the PLAAF will induct these aircraft with Russian RD-93 engines. They've even begun using their own WS-10 engines on J-11s, J-10s. So anyways, JF17 isn't exactly some small less-performing aircraft either.
 
Just one question, I know that the WS-10 mirrors that RD-33 (the same engine used to power the MiG-29). But what about the Chinese Flankers? How different are their engines compared to the Russian ones?
 
Just one question, I know that the WS-10 mirrors that RD-33 (the same engine used to power the MiG-29). But what about the Chinese Flankers? How different are their engines compared to the Russian ones?

WS-10 is nothing like the RD-33. Its based on CFM 56.
 
What the hell? The CFM-56 is used to power commercial airliners :confused:

Yeah I know. Thats how the Chinese got access to western tech (cause of arms embargo), reverse engineered a CFM 56 engine and made some changes and you have your WS-10.
 
Americans gave a CFM-56 engine to the Chinese in the 80's when their relationship was good - all was rosy and China was good back then, and all these Afghans were noble heroes for defending their homeland against foreign invaders.

Since then, when news started trickling out that China has been working on its own Turbofan engine, some ignorant people keep insisting it must be a derivative of the CM-56,because China couldn't possibly make anything without Western help, in their mind.

WS-10A replaces the AL-31(SU-27/SU-30 engine) in Chinese J-11 and J-10 aircraft. WS-13A is their replacement for RD-33, which is MiG-29's engine.

Our JF-17's currently use the RD-93, which takes the latest/improved MiG RD-33 engines and reposition it to fit the JF-17.

Both WS-10 and WS-13 outperform their Russian counterparts, and have greater thrust output and performance parameters.

On a related note, Ukraine also expressed interest in developing higher performance versions of their AL-222 Turbofan engine, for the JF-17, but it'll take a couple of years to materialize.
 
Americans gave a CFM-56 engine to the Chinese in the 80's when their relationship was good - all was rosy and China was good back then, and all these Afghans were noble heroes for defending their homeland against foreign invaders.

Since then, when news started trickling out that China has been working on its own Turbofan engine, some ignorant people keep insisting it must be a derivative of the CM-56,because China couldn't possibly make anything without Western help, in their mind.

Yeah some ignorant people like the Jane's Aero Engines:lol:
 
@kalu miah
I got ur point but in that case i would suggest that BD should go for Awacs(better go for the new russian one for easy compatibility) n better SAM system along with upgrading ur mig n 10-15 new mig29 smts as awacs will provide u with enhenced radar coverage n SAMs will help to secure ur economic assets as BD has a very limited land mass with massive population which even further increases the need for better SAMs

i think it will satisfy the current BD security need n in future if BD is ready to increase its defense exp to atleast 3% of gdp then u can go for su35 or any other fighter n these migs will serve as a second line of defense

Indeed that is what I was thinking of, may be some cheaper UAV awacs or even big radar installed on highest mountain top in CHT that will probably give coverage in that vicinity and connect with fighter avionics over data link, I don't know how these systems work, just some thoughts.

Chinese avionics are quiet good now and on many cases they surpass western avionics

The evidence(of the Chinese having surpassed the Russians) is right there, even Russian officials admit to that. Here's the excerpt I posted earlier from CIDEX(Chinese Defence Electronics expo):

Earlier, the situation was reversed with the Chinese going to the Russians to get components they could out-source.

Gripen's operating costs are around half the F-16's. Our JFT costs ONE-THIRD the F-16's. Senior AF officials, including the Pak AF chief(at Dubai 2012) have publically stated this. Quiet an achievement I'd say, this means pilots get to train more(extra flight hours, lower costs), be more effective, etc.

Where did you hear that? Pakistan chose the J-10 over going for a larger fleet of F-16s, Pakistan's President even sat in a J-10A somewhere in 2003/4. The FC-20/J-10B development was effected by PAF input, and there are dozens of Pakistani aeronautical engineers in Chengdu. @eaglehannan(on a sister Pak defence forum) posted alot of info he got from Pakistani engineers in Chengdu, also talked about how some of them were educated in Chinese aeronautics institutes, while some were educated in British institutes.

So I don't think it's fair to say that Pakistan is getting some "watered down" export version of the J-10.

Also, about the JF17. One of the reasons the aircraft's development costs were relatively low, was that many avionics and electronics researched and developed for the J-10, were "ported" to the JF-17. The KLJ-7 radar on the JF17, is the exact same design as the KLJ-10 on the J-10, except with a smaller T/R dish to accomodate the slightly smaller nose cone. The radar's compatible with the exact same frontline weapons suite the J-10A/B uses. That means it uses the latest Chinese weaponry, like the SD-10B that is superior to the Russian BVR R-77. If you research into it, even western sources like Janes called it roughly at par with AIM-120 C5's(slightly older AMRAAMs).

Aircrafts are complex beasts, combat performance is effected by many different factors and how all these different avionics components perform together. With alot of avionics in the JF17 having derived from the J-10, the only major difference is the bigger engine(0.4 Mach speed difference, Mach 1.8 vs Mach 2.2), and the bigger airframe enables more weight(carries 11 hardpoints vs 7). This stuff comes at a considerable cost though, J-10 costs around 1.5 to 2x what JF17 does(15-25 million USD vs 40 million+). For China(which is one of the biggest countries in the world), J-10's larger range means they can cover more territory with fewer jets. Other than that, they carry the exact same weapons suite, common/derived radar, bunch of stuff is common.

The PLAAF still sees the value in JF17 and CAC officials say PLAAF has been testing the aircraft. It was reported in 2011 that the FC-1 passed some sort of tests and met PLAAF's criteria. They are developing their own WS-13B Turbofan engines for this aircraft though, and I don't think the PLAAF will induct these aircraft with Russian RD-93 engines. They've even begun using their own WS-10 engines on J-11s, J-10s. So anyways, JF17 isn't exactly some small less-performing aircraft either.

Thanks for your informative reply. How many j10's and jf17's are you guys getting for PAF, are these the same versions that PLAAF is using?
 
You Advice is very poor...F-16/Gripen are expensive, take a look at Pakistan's F-16 procurement I am referring everyone to it you too should look into it. Compare SU-35 the over all life time cost is 2X lesser.

F-16 is sanction prone, single engine Blk 40/42+ is $45M excluding over the life time costs.

Gripen C/D is $60M, single engine American engine and certain components-avionics, sanction prone, Price tag excludes over the life time costs.

J-10 is not for sale, J-10B could be for sale to other nations post 2017+, J-10A production line would close down by that time. Price tag is $40M.

SU-35 Flanker baseline Variant $45M, 4.5++ Gen out classes all F-16/Gripen-J-10, twin engine, better maintenance cost over previous Flankers. Both from the point of view of Cost Price Tag Capabilities it out performs western-Chinese counter parts. Incase of sanction on behest of hindustan by russians, SU-35 Flanker has commonality with J-11B/J-15 thus spares-equipment is the least concern.

Is SU-35 a better option than getting Mig29SMT's? We have 8 Mig29's, Yogi suggested that we upgrade these to SMT's and get more Mig29SMT's. What is your opinion?

Yogi also suggested AWACs, is there any cheaper UAV awacs? How expensive is awacs anyways and is it going to be useful for us with so few planes?
 
Thanks for your informative reply. How many j10's and jf17's are you guys getting for PAF, are these the same versions that PLAAF is using?

PAF's getting 250 JF-17s, Block 1 production has pretty much finished, Block 2 is supposed to be delivered this year. Each block offers newer hardware, improved hardware, etc. In the end, the total number might go up or down depending on factors like how China's J-21/J-2x program comes along and what sort of high-low mix Pakistan goes for, how the Sukhoi T-50 comes along and what sort of threat it'll pose us by the time India gets it, what the state of Pakistan's economy is and what sort of government/s we have this decade.

J-10B seems to be undergoing posr-development testing in China. Supposed to have a couple of squadrons(two, if I'm not mistaken) in 2014. Follow on numbers will depend on those circumstances I mentioned as well.

All Chinese aircraft we've gotten have been customized versions. Even back in the 60's the F-6s we got had custom gondola tanks, a modification the PLAAF also opted for later on.
 
i think BD should also go for some power ground based radars like the Swordfish(which we developed with israel's help) The Swordfish LRTR currently
has a range of 600 km
(370 mi)-800 km (500 mi)
km range and can spot
objects as small as a cricket
ball (3-inches in diameter), which the DRDO plans to
upgrade to 1,500 km.

Although i don't think that india will provide it do BD but u guys can go for some chinese or russian equivalent of swordfish that would definately give a big boost to ur forces
 
I'd say Bangladesh should go for ZDK-03 type AWACS(they're now called AEW - Airborne Early Warning) platforms, if AWACS/AEW is needed. They cost less than western radars, and often out-perform their western counterparts.

For example, Pakistan operates both Swedish Erieye AWACS as well as Chinese ZDK-03. And the Chinese out-perform the Erieye.
 
Indeed that is what I was thinking of, may be some cheaper UAV awacs or even big radar installed on highest mountain top in CHT that will probably give coverage in that vicinity and connect with fighter avionics over data link, I don't know how these systems work, just some thoughts.



Thanks for your informative reply. How many j10's and jf17's are you guys getting for PAF, are these the same versions that PLAAF is using?

threy are going to get from 50 to 155 J-10B/FC-20 and about 250 JF-17
 
Is SU-35 a better option than getting Mig29SMT's? We have 8 Mig29's, Yogi suggested that we upgrade these to SMT's and get more Mig29SMT's. What is your opinion?

Of-course the Su-35 is much more superior than the MiG-29SMT. But it is much more expensive. Basically an Su-27 on steroids.

Yogi also suggested AWACs, is there any cheaper UAV awacs? How expensive is awacs anyways and is it going to be useful for us with so few planes?

We really need UAVs. Especially to monitor our borders.

AWACS can be expensive. Western ones are much better than Russian/Chinese ones, but more expensive.
 
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