MIG-21 "Bison" VS JF-17 "Thunder"

[shr_bwp]

Gentlemen:

Do NOT underestimate the Bison.

Please visit the thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation-15.html

and pay close attention to the presenter Fornuff who is very complimentary of the Bison.

He actually praises its "stealth" capability because of its small size and modern upgrades (including Israeli equipment) as compared to the SU-30.

I would not be surprised if the PAF procured the F7 for precisely this reason.

Here is some additional information on what the US AF think of the MiG-21:

"In part I, Fornuff mentions "4477 TES" - this was a MiG "exploitation" program run out of Tonopah, NV since 1974, now discontinued and declassified in 1989, and is detailed in a remarkable book "Red Eagles" by Steven Davies. I am reading it right now and it is a great description of how the USAF, Navy learned how to deal with MiGs by flying them against their own fighters.

...snip.....
...snip

Note that Fornuff is very complimentary of the Bison - a 50's design that is considered stealthy TODAY. The 4477 were also complimentary of the Mig 21 Fishbed (without the gee-whiz gadgetry that the Bison has). One test pilot states categorically that he beat EVERY US inventory aircraft except the F-16 and the F 18, with the MiG 21. Hopefully the PAF recognizes the same abilities in the F7- this means that the F14, F4, F15 were beatable by a Fishbed!! "

 

[k7x]

the biggest mistake one can do is to underestimate your enemy's capabilities .. So dont underestimate these bison.

Here the point in mig 21 bison vs jf17 is to compare the aircraft at its present form.. yes i mean present form ..

I mean for next 5 years. You will be having block I with Chinese avionics . and we will have our bisons till they are replaced by some other craft

Mig 21 is very old design but these bisons are upgraded with high tech avionics which make them in par with 4th gen aircraft. In Dog fight this might not be as useful but considering its BVR payload and Radar capabilities we can have a good discussion and comparison.

Noting to feel offended as we are comparing mig 21 with your latest aircraft..

JF17 will be much more superior to Bisons in future , just in present form and immediate future what will be the case ?

 

[wangrong]

 

[HAIDER]

If anyone enlightened, Mig that shoutdown during Kargil conflict, was it unarmed ?. Or shot down with manpad proves that Mig has no capability of chaffing or neutralize any incoming ? Or in valley sorties planes are soft target for any manpad?

 

[shr_bwp]

the biggest mistake one can do is to underestimate your enemy's capabilities .. So dont underestimate these bison.

Here the point in mig 21 bison vs jf17 is to compare the aircraft at its present form.. yes i mean present form ..

I mean for next 5 years. You will be having block I with Chinese avionics . and we will have our bisons till they are replaced by some other craft

Mig 21 is very old design but these bisons are upgraded with high tech avionics which make them in par with 4th gen aircraft. In Dog fight this might not be as useful but considering its BVR payload and Radar capabilities we can have a good discussion and comparison.

Noting to feel offended as we are comparing mig 21 with your latest aircraft..

JF17 will be much more superior to Bisons in future , just in present form and immediate future what will be the case ?

I am not sure where you felt that I was offended....I am defending the capability of the MiG 21 design(understand this subtlety: the DESIGN is great and can be used in modern combat as per the Red Flag presentation - the MiG 21 that is NOT upgraded is certainly at a disadvantage - the UPGRADED 21 is a capable platform)

I am not knowledgeable about the JF17 specially since it is still being integrated - a plane can have a lot of paper capabilities but the real test, as every one knows, is when it is flown and evaluated.

It is good that PAF has the F7 and F16 - it will know very well how the JF17 stacks up on the various performance envelopes against two of the acknowledged superior fighter designs in the world today.

We know that in the hands of a capable pilot, the US F15 can be handled by Mig-21 - the Americans will tell you that. How does the JF17 do against the MiG21? As you can see the PAF and the Chinese will KNOW!!!

 

[Storm Force]

The Thread is useless.................

The reasons are as follows.

One plane does not exist in combat mode ie with operational clearance as Yet. namely the JF17. By the time we have say 5 or 6 sqds of Thunder my guess being 2015 there will be no mig21 in IAF. service

Secondly as stated the mig21 nos are falling by the month. One time IAF had 450 in service today 160 approx. They too will keep falling as more amd more mki arrive.

Today this wud be 8 prototype JF17 versis 125 mig21 BISON.

in 5 years it will be

100 Thunder JF17 versis 40 mig21 Bison.

IN OTHER WORDS IRRELVANT

 

[blain2]

The only concern that PAF would have with regards to Bison is the HMS and AAM mating. However JF-17 will have this capability as well. Besides that, PAF understands the performance characteristics and flight envelope of the Mig-21 extremely well having operated the type for more than 20+ years. In terms of actual flight performance, Pakistani derivatives of the Mig-21 are better than the IAF Mig-21s due to change in design of the F-7PG.

The key will be how the aircraft are employed against each other. IAF Mig-21 performance should not be a surprise for the PAF unlike it was for some in the USAF. Some said that they were unable to jam the Bison's radar, but why is that surprising? Are the newer radars not better off in terms of countering jamming? I am sure there are many other radars besides the Kopyo on the Bison that can withstand jamming from US aircraft.

In terms of JF-17 vs. Bison deal, well we know that JF-17's close in performance is better than that of the F-7PG which is documented to perform better than the F-7/Mig-21 (Bison is based on this).

In the BVR arena, both have standoff engagement capability so not sure what could be the game changer aside from better employment.

 

[muse]

The Thread is useless.................

Oh pleeze! I bet you think the Martians versus the Venutians is a useless thread aswell , some people!

If it's not a aircraft versus aircraft, then it's the number of hardpoints that are deficiency of a point defense aircraft, how many bloody missiles does it need to carry for a engagement lasting six seconds max? -all terribly, terrible.

Apologies to all - you know who you are.

 

[TOPGUN]

FLYING COFINS(MIG21) VS jf-THUNDER!
dear guys, lets disscus this!
i think , there are lots of threads, delibrtly rasid to undermine, the ability of THUNDER, so here is our chance, have a compact disscussion!
plz stay away of trolling!
have a good day!
thanks

Dear brother in all due respect as u know i always agree with u but there is nothing to disscus here there is nothing to compare between the flying cofin and our thunder!

 

[blain2]

I am not sure where you felt that I was offended....I am defending the capability of the MiG 21 design(understand this subtlety: the DESIGN is great and can be used in modern combat as per the Red Flag presentation - the MiG 21 that is NOT upgraded is certainly at a disadvantage - the UPGRADED 21 is a capable platform)

I am not knowledgeable about the JF17 specially since it is still being integrated - a plane can have a lot of paper capabilities but the real test, as every one knows, is when it is flown and evaluated.

It is good that PAF has the F7 and F16 - it will know very well how the JF17 stacks up on the various performance envelopes against two of the acknowledged superior fighter designs in the world today.

We know that in the hands of a capable pilot, the US F15 can be handled by Mig-21 - the Americans will tell you that. How does the JF17 do against the MiG21? As you can see the PAF and the Chinese will KNOW!!!

In the hands of capable pilots, even our F-6/Mig-19s went up against the F-15s and the Mirages had cine on the F-15s (albeit RoE were not for BVR engagements) in close in maneuvers. So I think the pilot factor is always at play. However besides that, GCI and AEW coverage and employment are another major factor. Whosoever gives the pilot better situational awareness will find his side winning.

JF-17, at least for the PAF, is a game changer. Unlike other aircraft like F-7s and Mirages in the PAF that were conducting training in multiple mission profiles, the JF-17 is the first aircraft in the league of the F-16 that would give a true multirole capability to all of the sqns that fly it. Where earlier the pilot in the PAF had to make do with whatever capability the aircraft afforded him to conduct training for multi-role operations, the JF-17 is a true MR platform and this affords much greater flexibility to the PAF pilots. While a point defence fighter like the Mig-21 will always be a threat, I think having a good understanding of its capabilities is a must and given what we have been flying for a while in the form of F-7s/PGs etc., hopefully Bison will not be a surprise.

 

[blain2]

The Thread is useless.................

The reasons are as follows.

One plane does not exist in combat mode ie with operational clearance as Yet. namely the JF17. By the time we have say 5 or 6 sqds of Thunder my guess being 2015 there will be no mig21 in IAF. service

Secondly as stated the mig21 nos are falling by the month. One time IAF had 450 in service today 160 approx. They too will keep falling as more amd more mki arrive.

Today this wud be 8 prototype JF17 versis 125 mig21 BISON.

in 5 years it will be

100 Thunder JF17 versis 40 mig21 Bison.

IN OTHER WORDS IRRELVANT

Who is to say that IAF will not deploy the Bison to their western bases in the next 5 years? As such the possibility of Bison being faced by the PAF is always there.

 

[HAIDER]

What's being killed and killer ratio of Mig21 in wars ?

 

[Machoman]

Sorry to all my Pakistani friends please please do not compare Jf-17 with Su 30 and Migs. We just develop this plane why we are so hyper about it? I mean just relax. when time come we will see which one stood up. Do not make such a big fuss about Jf-17. As my teachers always say " badday boll duba gol" So please stop this nonsense and wake up!

 

[luoshan]

The Thread is useless.................

The reasons are as follows.

One plane does not exist in combat mode ie with operational clearance as Yet. namely the JF17. By the time we have say 5 or 6 sqds of Thunder my guess being 2015 there will be no mig21 in IAF. service

Secondly as stated the mig21 nos are falling by the month. One time IAF had 450 in service today 160 approx. They too will keep falling as more amd more mki arrive.

Today this wud be 8 prototype JF17 versis 125 mig21 BISON.

in 5 years it will be

100 Thunder JF17 versis 40 mig21 Bison.

IN OTHER WORDS IRRELVANT

Alo, Both the planes are designed for point defense. In order for the 2 planes to come face-to-face with each other in combat, at least one of the plane has to take up deep strike role, which is very unlikely to happen.

 

[Kompromat]

Dear brother in all due respect as u know i always agree with u but there is nothing to disscus here there is nothing to compare between the flying cofin and our thunder!

Man this thread is getting boring lets make it a bit Fun !



vs

= MIG :

Tipu leader to Tower , splash 1 , mig 21 down ....wooo yeah , Good work Tipu leader , mission accomplished Return to base..
You know what i mean guys