Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[kursed]

Why not TOT or a local licensed production ?

Must not have been part of the deal.

 

[iLION12345_1]

@iLION12345_1 Why Pakistan Army is not acquiring more Kornets and Alcotan anti Tank missiles or producing them under license, why buy so many different systems in low numbers? Training and maintenance are not getting easier without equipment standardisation right ?

I see, @all you and @iLION12345_1 what were the tactical requirements for the Pakistan Army which lead to the decision for the purchase of the Alcotan and Kornet ? What advantages in the battlefield can be gained in contrast to the Indian military ?

PA does seem to have a habit of doing that. The Kornet is an expensive system, PA can’t buy large numbers at once to replace all its older ATGMs. So they buy it in small numbers as a force multiplier, equipping the units in certain key areas with it where the increase in capability will be most useful. They do a similar thing with MANPADs, older ones remain in large numbers as they buy new ones in small numbers. Maybe this is how PA plans to replace the older systems fully too, small numbers over an amount of years. Although if we go with Chinese Attack helicopters, PAs next mainstay ATGM might be the HJ-10, which is good, I believe it has top-attack and true fire-and-forget capability, which no other ATGM in PA inventory has. India already has SPIKE-NLOS. Also keep in mind, part of me thinks that the kornet purchase was more of a message, along with the Mi35Ms, to show the world (mainly india) that Russia is an option to buy weapons for Pakistan now, and they’re not out enemy anymore. It certainly did it’s job in that regard, sent quite a wave of panic through the east.

Also, As Farooq said, we don’t really know if PA has bought more and we likely never will because it’s not always made public. If they can hide something like HQ-9P several years, they can surely hide these. As for ToT, i doubt Russia would allow that in the first place for the Kornet.

Coming to the ALCOTAN, PA buys that in massive numbers already and is still buying them. They’re not as big of a system as a Kornet. These are basically for when you need more than an RPG but need to stay more mobile than an ATGM squad, they’re found all over the PA and I must say the fact that PA has this many is rather impressive, many armies are still using RPG7s as their principle infantry-carried Anti-armor weapon, PA uses a proper AT weapon like the ALCOTAN instead. Keep in mind india also has its equivalent system in service, so do most other armies, such a system is commonplace for light armor, APCs, IFVs, bunkers and even tanks at certain ranges and angles.

Again, as for ToT, it was Likely not possible, otherwise PA would have definitely went for it, they got ToT for RBS-70 and produced those, that’s a more advanced system than an ALCOTAN. It really depends on wether the country of origin is willing to give ToT or is willing to give a good deal for it.

 

[farooqbhai007]

PA does seem to have a habit of doing that. The Kornet is an expensive system, PA can’t buy large numbers at once to replace all its older ATGMs. So they buy it in small numbers as a force multiplier, equipping the units in certain key areas with it where the increase in capability will be most useful. They do a similar thing with MANPADs, older ones remain in large numbers as they buy new ones in small numbers. Maybe this is how PA plans to replace the older systems fully too, small numbers over an amount of years. Although if we go with Chinese Attack helicopters, PAs next mainstay ATGM might be the HJ-10, which is good, I believe it has top-attack and true fire-and-forget capability, which no other ATGM in PA inventory has. India already has SPIKE-NLOS. Also keep in mind, part of me thinks that the kornet purchase was more of a message, along with the Mi35Ms, to show the world (mainly india) that Russia is an option to buy weapons for Pakistan now, and they’re not out enemy anymore. It certainly did it’s job in that regard, sent quite a wave of panic through the east.

Also, As Farooq said, we don’t really know if PA has bought more and we likely never will because it’s not always made public. If they can hide something like HQ-9P several years, they can surely hide these. As for ToT, i doubt Russia would allow that in the first place for the Kornet.

Coming to the ALCOTAN, PA buys that in massive numbers already and is still buying them. They’re not as big of a system as a Kornet. These are basically for when you need more than an RPG but need to stay more mobile than an ATGM squad, they’re found all over the PA and I must say the fact that PA has this many is rather impressive, many armies are still using RPG7s as their principle infantry-carried Anti-armor weapon, PA uses a proper AT weapon like the ALCOTAN instead. Keep in mind india also has its equivalent system in service, so do most other armies, such a system is commonplace for light armor, APCs, IFVs, bunkers and even tanks at certain ranges and angles.

Again, as for ToT, it was Likely not possible, otherwise PA would have definitely went for it, they got ToT for RBS-70 and produced those, that’s a more advanced system than an ALCOTAN. It really depends on wether the country of origin is willing to give ToT or is willing to give a good deal for it.

india has Spike SR *

 

[iLION12345_1]

india has Spike SR *

Thanks for the correction

 

[Inception-06]

PA does seem to have a habit of doing that. The Kornet is an expensive system, PA can’t buy large numbers at once to replace all its older ATGMs. So they buy it in small numbers as a force multiplier, equipping the units in certain key areas with it where the increase in capability will be most useful. They do a similar thing with MANPADs, older ones remain in large numbers as they buy new ones in small numbers. Maybe this is how PA plans to replace the older systems fully too, small numbers over an amount of years. Although if we go with Chinese Attack helicopters, PAs next mainstay ATGM might be the HJ-10, which is good, I believe it has top-attack and true fire-and-forget capability, which no other ATGM in PA inventory has. India already has SPIKE-NLOS. Also keep in mind, part of me thinks that the kornet purchase was more of a message, along with the Mi35Ms, to show the world (mainly india) that Russia is an option to buy weapons for Pakistan now, and they’re not out enemy anymore. It certainly did it’s job in that regard, sent quite a wave of panic through the east.

Also, As Farooq said, we don’t really know if PA has bought more and we likely never will because it’s not always made public. If they can hide something like HQ-9P several years, they can surely hide these. As for ToT, i doubt Russia would allow that in the first place for the Kornet.

Coming to the ALCOTAN, PA buys that in massive numbers already and is still buying them. They’re not as big of a system as a Kornet. These are basically for when you need more than an RPG but need to stay more mobile than an ATGM squad, they’re found all over the PA and I must say the fact that PA has this many is rather impressive, many armies are still using RPG7s as their principle infantry-carried Anti-armor weapon, PA uses a proper AT weapon like the ALCOTAN instead. Keep in mind india also has its equivalent system in service, so do most other armies, such a system is commonplace for light armor, APCs, IFVs, bunkers and even tanks at certain ranges and angles.

Again, as for ToT, it was Likely not possible, otherwise PA would have definitely went for it, they got ToT for RBS-70 and produced those, that’s a more advanced system than an ALCOTAN. It really depends on wether the country of origin is willing to give ToT or is willing to give a good deal for it.

First thanks for the detailed analysis. Then how many infantry fighting troops could be carried by Maaz - Fitted with Baktar-Shikan anti-tank missile firing unit? Would it make sense to equip the infantry squads of the M-113 infantry squads FIRST with the Alcotan ?

 

[iLION12345_1]

First thanks for the detailed analysis. Then how many infantry fighting troops could be carried by Maaz - Fitted with Baktar-Shikan anti-tank missile firing unit? Would it make sense to equip the infantry squads of the M-113 infantry squads FIRST with the Alcotan ?.

ALCOTAN given to soldiers wherever needed, I believe PA at this point has enough to equip most of the frontline with it. They’d obviously start with wherever they think it’ll be most useful (where more armor or fortifications are expected) and considering PAs battle taxi doctrine of APCs, i’m sure the troops in those carry these too. It doesn’t really make the ATGM on top or the alcotan any more redundant because the purpose of the ALCOTAN is to be Carried forward in combat, it’s light and portable and is for anything with armor, not just a tank, so light armor, fortifications, bunkers etc.

it’s like a standard squad AT weapon I suppose, much like the Bazooka and then the AT4 and now SMAW is for the US, however I don’t know if PAs exact usage and equipment scenario is the same as those of the Americans in this case.

 

[Raja Porus]

First thanks for the detailed analysis. Then how many infantry fighting troops could be carried by Maaz - Fitted with Baktar-Shikan anti-tank missile firing unit? Would it make sense to equip the infantry squads of the M-113 infantry squads FIRST with the Alcotan ?

MIBs aslo had RPGs and considering the number of Alcotans we've bought, MIBs must've been equipped with them along with SIBs.

 

[Inception-06]

The Maaz and other APCs of the PA armed with ATGMS (Baktar-Shikan, TOW etc) can carry as many troops as a regular M113 (more in the case of the stretched versions like Saad APC). I believe it’s 13 troops in the regular ones.

As for the Alcotan, it’s given to soldiers wherever needed, I believe PA at this point has enough to equip most of the frontline with it. They’d obviously start with wherever they think it’ll be most useful (where more armor or fortifications are expected) and considering PAs battle taxi doctrine of APCs, i’m sure the troops in those carry these too. It doesn’t really make the ATGM on top or the alcotan any more redundant because the purpose of the ALCOTAN is to be Carried forward in combat, it’s light and portable and is for anything with armor, not just a tank, so light armor, fortifications, bunkers etc.

it’s like a standard squad AT weapon I suppose, much like the Bazooka and then the AT4 and now SMAW is for the US, however I don’t know if PAs exact usage and equipment scenario is the same as those of the Americans in this case.

Would it make sense to equipping all M-113 with the Baktharshikan ATGM, that would increase the survival against Indian mechanised formations and, change the role from battle taxi to a supporting fighting vehicle, right ?

 

[Raja Porus]

The Maaz and other APCs of the PA armed with ATGMS (Baktar-Shikan, TOW etc) can carry as many troops as a regular M113 (more in the case of the stretched versions like Saad APC). I believe it’s 13 troops in the regular ones.

Would it make sense to equipping all M-113 with the Baktharshikan ATGM, that would increase the survival against Indian mechanised formations and, change the role from battle taxi to a supporting fighting vehicle, right ?

Maaz can carry only four personnel and no infantry. Thus it would be useless.
Moreover there are already many Baktar shikan equipped APCs in an MIB(it is a platoon lvl weapon), that'd make every 1 in 5 APCs a BSWS carrier.

 

[Inception-06]

Maaz can carry only four personnel and no infantry. Thus it would be useless.
Moreover there are already many Baktar shikan equipped APCs in an MIB(it is a platoon lvl weapon), that'd make every 1 in 5 APCs a BSWS carrier.

And is the Mouz -RBS-70 also a platoon level weapon ? Since when did the production of the RBS-70 started ? Would you recommend installing Kornets on M-113 ?

 

[Raja Porus]

And is the Mouz -RBS-70 also a platoon level weapon ? Since when did the production of the RBS-70 started ?

AD regiments are not organised like that. BSWS in a platoon is to provide AT support to its own platoon(Bn) APCs, while RBS-70 equipped APC will provide AD coverage to mech assets of another arm so its difficult to say if its a platoon lvl weapon. It'd depend on the concentration of RBS-70 in that force.
@PanzerKiel will be better able to answer this question.

 

[PanzerKiel]

First thanks for the detailed analysis. Then how many infantry fighting troops could be carried by Maaz - Fitted with Baktar-Shikan anti-tank missile firing unit? Would it make sense to equip the infantry squads of the M-113 infantry squads FIRST with the Alcotan ?

All ATGM carriers only carry the weapon detachment since the rest of the space is taken up by the missiles inside the APC.
Alcotan will be issues to all infantry (foot and mech).

Would it make sense to equipping all M-113 with the Baktharshikan ATGM, that would increase the survival against Indian mechanised formations and, change the role from battle taxi to a supporting fighting vehicle, right ?

All APCs with ATGMs means that all troops will not carried inside the APC. Thats why a specific number of weapon carriers are used..

And is the Mouz -RBS-70 also a platoon level weapon ? Since when did the production of the RBS-70 started ? Would you recommend installing Kornets on M-113 ?

There are several units for that. They are attached as platoons with mech units when needed.

 

[farooqbhai007]

The Maaz and other APCs of the PA armed with ATGMS (Baktar-Shikan, TOW etc) can carry as many troops as a regular M113 (more in the case of the stretched versions like Saad APC). I believe it’s 13 troops in the regular ones.

As for the Alcotan, it’s given to soldiers wherever needed, I believe PA at this point has enough to equip most of the frontline with it. They’d obviously start with wherever they think it’ll be most useful (where more armor or fortifications are expected) and considering PAs battle taxi doctrine of APCs, i’m sure the troops in those carry these too. It doesn’t really make the ATGM on top or the alcotan any more redundant because the purpose of the ALCOTAN is to be Carried forward in combat, it’s light and portable and is for anything with armor, not just a tank, so light armor, fortifications, bunkers etc.

it’s like a standard squad AT weapon I suppose, much like the Bazooka and then the AT4 and now SMAW is for the US, however I don’t know if PAs exact usage and equipment scenario is the same as those of the Americans in this case.

We do have SMAW as well , standard single shot system of the PN Marines.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Maaz can carry only four personnel and no infantry. Thus it would be useless.
Moreover there are already many Baktar shikan equipped APCs in an MIB(it is a platoon lvl weapon), that'd make every 1 in 5 APCs a BSWS carrier.

All ATGM carriers only carry the weapon detachment since the rest of the space is taken up by the missiles inside the APC.
Alcotan will be issues to all infantry (foot and mech).


All APCs with ATGMs means that all troops will not carried inside the APC. Thats why a specific number of weapon carriers are used..


There are several units for that. They are attached as platoons with mech units when needed.

My bad in that case, did not consider that the APCs with ATGMs would need to carry ammo somewhere and hence couldn’t carry troops, that does make more sense

 

[Raja Porus]

Hopefully frim 23 March. insha'Allah this year the armoured component will be larger this year.
Identifying From the insignias:
Alkhalid of XXX Corps, Gujranwala(seems like 30th Corps has a mix of t59s,AZs and AKs)
T80UD of 1st armoured div
Alzarrar of 6th armoured div

Why Dont we bring type85s?