Meanwhile in China and India...

[CriticalThought]

While we fret over closing schools, and syllabus being too difficult for children, the world is recognizing India and China for the difficulty of their maths tests:

Having studied from the Sindh Textbook Board in Matric and Intermediate, I can testify that these particular questions employ concepts that are taught in grade 12. But, those concepts are not combined in complicated ways like in Chinese/Indian tests. Instead, questions from the textbook are replicated verbatim during final exams. We are not challenging our students into applying the concepts they learn in new and complicated scenarios. And thus, we are creating generation upon generation of mental slaves. This needs to be dealt with on a crisis basis. A national emergency needs to declared to lift the level of our education across the entire country.

DISCLAIMER: My experience of Sindh Textbook Board dates almost a quarter of a century in the past. I have no idea if things have become even worse since then.

 

[lightoftruth]

For IIT 's students prepare for at least 2 years sometimes 4 ,brightest of India write this exam and it is supposed to be difficult otherwise you won't be able to eliminate.

Even CBSE have also introduced HOTS, higher order thinking skills, to make it intresting in board exams.

 

[Goenitz]

While we fret over closing schools, and syllabus being too difficult for children, the world is recognizing India and China for the difficulty of their maths tests

We have our entry test exams too. Difficult and critical as it can be. However, I did O/A level, which are as critical as these questions are. Nothing, fancy I can say about that above question. In my experience, I always had good teacher of Math/Chem in O/A level in DPS Lahore, even in BSc, but not good teachers of Physics. It extends later to dynamics, then thermodynamics, turbo-machinery, and then fluid dynamics.

The math was always there, like Calculus, Differential equation, Liner algebra,, numerical methods but its application (Physics) was missing in my experience.
Whats your say in it. @khansaheeb @JamD

 

[Vapnope]

But, those concepts are not combined in complicated ways like in Chinese/Indian tests. Instead, questions from the textbook are replicated verbatim during final exams. We are not challenging our students into applying the concepts they learn in new and complicated scenarios. And thus, we are creating generation upon generation of mental slaves. This needs to be dealt with on a crisis basis. A national emergency needs to declared to lift the level of our education across the entire country

Correct. Our education system checks the ability to write things from the memory and less about analytically solving problems. There is a reason why the percentages in exam marks are increasing and overall quality is declining. One more thing is presence of private sector (Arose due to negligence in govt institutions) which is problematic.

I studied advanced mathematics but never wanted to adopt mathematical modeling as my career.

 

[CriticalThought]

We have our entry test exams too. Difficult and critical as it can be. However, I did O/A level, which are as critical as these questions are. Nothing, fancy I can say about that above question. In my experience, I always had good teacher of Math/Chem in O/A level in DPS Lahore, even in BSc, but not good teachers of Physics. It extends later to dynamics, then thermodynamics, turbo-machinery, and then fluid dynamics.

The math was always there, like Calculus, Differential equation, Liner algebra,, numerical methods but its application (Physics) was missing in my experience.
Whats your say in it. @khansaheeb @JamD

We are a highly segregated society. On the one hand, you have O/A level students, on the other hand you have government and private schools for provincial education boards.

The cream of A levels is given scholarships by top universities in England and America. I have had the opportunity to speak one on one with such a student and suggested he could take up his studies in Pakistan's topmost liberal university, the creme de la creme. He laughed at my face, saying there is nothing that university can teach him. Our own young generation considers the best opportunities in Pakistan to be unworthy. On the other hand, the best minds in India and China consider local options as extremely promising. We have both a mentality issue and a capability issue. On the one hand, O/A level students end up being intellectual slaves to Western greatness, on the other hand we also lack in world class teaching options. We don't have any universities that rank amongst the topmost in the world.

I know some who has sat in two different scholarship exams, achieving topmost marks across Pakistan in one of them. The questions in these local exams are nothing compared to what is shown in the video. And these are just one question each. There are many more questions on these exams. Youtube is full of difficult questions given to children in Singapore, China, and India. Can you find similar videos for Pakistan?

 

[jaybird]

The difficulty of math tests does not correlate with how successful and the competence of country is though. Plus the Indian members in this forum must've all failed the exam to be this delusional. They should be more intelligent than what they've shown here if they are smart enough to pass those math exams?

The most important thing for Pakistan right now is good leadership from the top and unity as a nation with the same goal in mind.

 

[CriticalThought]

The difficulty of math tests does not correlate with how successful and the competence of country is though. Plus the Indian members in this forum must've all failed the exam to be this delusional. They should be more intelligent than what they've shown here if they are smart enough to pass those math exams?

The most important thing for Pakistan right now is good leadership from the top and unity as a nation with the same goal in mind.

Having worked with Russian and Chinese programmers, I can say they are a cut above the rest. They tend to have analytical minds and look at problems in a completely different manner. They are also very, very quick in picking up new concepts. Training in mathematics is not just about being a mathematician. Consider lifting weights in the gym. In real life, you don't need to lift a barbell 8 times in 3 consecutive sets. But the muscles you build make you fitter, healthier, and more capable in everyday life. Same goes with mathematical training. It is an exercise for the mind which conditions it better for all sorts of challenges in life. Anyone who tries to de-emphasize the importance of good mathematical education cannot be a friend of Pakistan.

 

[Goenitz]

On the one hand, you have O/A level students, on the other hand you have government and private schools for provincial education boards

That is why I said DPS (Divisional public school), also I know there are few good govt school like that. However, I agree, our metric/Fsc level was designed for clerical and office jobs. Some argue we need to completely get rid of such system and focus on vocational training and some key subjects with emphasis on problem solving.

At the moment we have a general decline, be it medical, social science, sciences, literature, religious studies etc. You can hardly find any good poet, novelists, scientists., economists, lawyer, movie maker, producer, scholars, Ulema, who only studied in Pakistan (now). I don't even see orators like Zia muhayyudin/Tariq Aziz, Naeem Bukhari etc.. And lets don't talk about politicians. A complete dive from the skies.

It is due to, you may, "R&D". We just copy paste in every thing. Even our bureaucrats .. they copy paste the foreign law w/o tailoring it to our need. Our politicians copy/paste metro from what they see in west, w/o proper urban planing. I don't like even our Uni (due to HEC) trend in this regard. They just copy US semester system, w/o realising that it may/may not be detrimental to our students learning.

 

[CriticalThought]

That is why I said DPS (Divisional public school), also I know there are few good govt school like that. However, I agree, our metric/Fsc level was designed for clerical and office jobs. Some argue we need to completely get rid of such system and focus on vocational training and some key subjects with emphasis on problem solving.

At the moment we have a general decline, be it medical, social science, sciences, literature, religious studies etc. You can hardly find any good poet, novelists, scientists., economists, lawyer, movie maker, producer, scholars, Ulema, who only studied in Pakistan (now). I don't even see orators like Zia muhayyudin/Tariq Aziz, Naeem Bukhari etc.. And lets don't talk about politicians. A complete five from the skies.

It is due to, you may, "R&D". We just copy paste in every thing. Even our bureaucrats .. they copy paste the foreign law w/o tailoring it to our need. Our politicians copy/paste metro from what they see in west, w/o proper urban planing. I don't like even our Uni (due to HEC) trend in this regard. They just copy US semester system, w/o realising that it may/may not be detrimental to our students learning.

I can testify that rote learning is followed even at the university level in come cases. And this rote learning system is the root cause of all the problems you pointed out above. When students are made dependent on spoon fed knowledge from an early age, this is what happens. In my private school, 'learning' comprised of reading a chapter - either by the teacher or one of the pet students - and then the teacher dictating answers to end of chapter questions. This happens until 10th grade. Questions in 10th grade mathematics exam are replicated from the textbook. At the intermediate level, 'learning' in English, Urdu, Pak Studies and Islamiat comprises memorizing notes from a tuition centre or a well known college teacher. Questions in final exams of mathematics, physics, and chemistry are already known and are again memorized to a large extent. There are of course exceptions to this. Supposedly, there is paper 'A', 'B', and 'C' each with increasing difficulty. A few nights before my grade 12 physics exam, one of my friends arrived at my house asking the solution to a question. He said that paper 'C' has been selected and it is going to be extremely tough. A few days later, the final exam had the exact same question he wanted me to solve a few nights before. This is what's going on.

 

[Chhatrapati]

When I wrote IIT entrance (there was no mains or Prelims), the cut-off mark to pass was 5. Now more people write these exams and higher the cut offs. These exams are not measuring one's intelligence or ability but who can solve math, Phy, Chem in the easiest way possible. Because there is a lot of training institutes where they teach how to quickly solve problems, the exams got tougher and tougher.

This system should be abolished and replaced with something that favours critical thinking, a complete revamp is necessary for India, where we need to find the individual capacity of students, that involves interviewing, instead of just relying on tests.

 

[Splurgenxs]

When I wrote IIT entrance (there was no mains or Prelims), the cut-off mark to pass was 5. Now more people write these exams and higher the cut offs. These exams are not measuring one's intelligence or ability but who can solve math, Phy, Chem in the easiest way possible. Because there is a lot of training institutes where they teach how to quickly solve problems, the exams got tougher and tougher.

This system should be abolished and replaced with something that favors critical thinking, a complete revamp is necessary for India, where we need to find the individual capacity of students, that involves interviewing, instead of just relying on tests.

Correct , I have had the displeasure of training and lording over IIT freshers and unfortunately
the way they attack problems was shocking. (Not for all but many i encountered)

There arrogance was through the roof and ability was lacking. Tendency to talk a lot of jargon heavy gibberish, that had nothing to do with the problem at hand was also very common. Maybe they though people will be impressed .

But left a bad taste in mouth,

IIT ans are preferred when teams are scaling up just for the justification and marketability factor when securing finances.

 

[Goenitz]

Correct , I have had the displeasure of training and lording over IIT freshers and unfortunately
the way they attack problems was shocking. (Not for all but many i encountered)

There arrogance was through the roof and ability was lacking. Tendency to talk a lot of jargon heavy gibberish, that had nothing to do with the problem at hand was also very common. Maybe they though people will be impressed .

But left a bad taste in mouth,

IIT ans are preferred when teams are scaling up just for the justification and marketability factor when securing finances.

Technically, we are a nation of jugards (so gibberish/jargon). Also, we don't know how to handle fame/power/authority, due to our short-slightness. The moment we learn a little extra, we become arrogant, and look down others to prove our worth in front of others. When we do doctorate, with 1-2 papers, we think ourselves as gods.

The more we look outwards, the more humble we get. Overall, it is a lack of exposure that makes us rude in our little well, thinking it the entire world.

 

[CriticalThought]

When I wrote IIT entrance (there was no mains or Prelims), the cut-off mark to pass was 5. Now more people write these exams and higher the cut offs. These exams are not measuring one's intelligence or ability but who can solve math, Phy, Chem in the easiest way possible. Because there is a lot of training institutes where they teach how to quickly solve problems, the exams got tougher and tougher.

This system should be abolished and replaced with something that favours critical thinking, a complete revamp is necessary for India, where we need to find the individual capacity of students, that involves interviewing, instead of just relying on tests.

Sounds like jealousy to me. We don't have an actual IITian to counter your claims, and in general the Indians on PDF are lowlife scumbags anyway. So I will take whatever you say with a whole bag of salt. In any case, this is not about the merits of IIT, it is about maths education in Pakistan. Kindly stay on topic.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Sounds like jealousy to me. We don't have an actual IITian to counter your claims, and in general the Indians on PDF are lowlife scumbags anyway. So I will take whatever you say with a whole bag of salt. In any case, this is not about the merits of IIT, it is about maths education in Pakistan. Kindly stay on topic.

I'm old and well paid to be jealous of IITians. You misread what I said, and is now insulting me for what you perceive is 'disagreeing with you'. And you fall right under the category you used to describe PDF Indians, where even a normal discussion takes a turn for the worst throwing names and insults. I am on the topic, being OP, I hope you know what you're talking about.

 

[magra]

We have our entry test exams too. Difficult and critical as it can be. However, I did O/A level, which are as critical as these questions are. Nothing, fancy I can say about that above question. In my experience, I always had good teacher of Math/Chem in O/A level in DPS Lahore, even in BSc, but not good teachers of Physics. It extends later to dynamics, then thermodynamics, turbo-machinery, and then fluid dynamics.

The math was always there, like Calculus, Differential equation, Liner algebra,, numerical methods but its application (Physics) was missing in my experience.
Whats your say in it. @khansaheeb @JamD

Do people studying for engineering entrance in Pakistan also refer to 'Irodov' as gold standard for Physics?