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Mazagon Dock Ltd likely to get fresh orders after Scorpene

Type 216 or an upgraded Type 214 will be the preference of Indian Navy.

A26 will also be a good one, provided SAAB participates.
 
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In many sense, the kilo class or Project 877EKM have very low noise levels and are considered extremely dangerous by US Navy.They have very low Noise levels and are dubbed as black holes in the ocean bcz they are nearly undetectable once submerged.

Kilo%2BDiagram%2B877ekm.jpg

Note Missiles: The vessels can be fitted with the Novator Club-S (SS-N-27) cruise missile system which fires the 3M-54E1 anti-ship missile. Range is 220km with 450kg high-explosive warhead. or Kilo can be fitted with similar weaponry as the Exocet SM39 Block II


With Pipavav signing JV with Zvyozdochkasubmarine for overhauling all kilo subs making it a regional MRO outside Russia in july 2015 augurs well for all of Indian Kilo subs
What we need to see is beyond refit how many years it can operate as it has to be classified as either a minor refit or a deeper medium refit and life certitication done every 15 years for a total life of 30 years. It is this which may provide us with extensive new sensors, weapons and communication upgradations.It will also help in inspecting, replacing and repairing both the worn out parts of the hulls (inner "pressure hull" and outer hull)
What is unclear is whether GOI will agree in giving Pipavav all he upgradation of Kilos in Indian Navy.

Interestingly, This JV may enable Pipavav to also manufacture Kilo subs in India but not P75I which has distinct need of UVLS and AIP. So we may still get new Kilos outside P75I/P76 too - thats an option GOI has on table and should exercise if the price is good. That may give a tremendous boost to pvt sector.

The Kilos upgraded in numbers if deployed around western sea then its enough i guess for Area Denial operations or Anti Piracy operations too. But these subs are no match to more capable subs of PLAN. This is where i dont feel comfortable with them even with their upgrades. The mainstream media may paint any color but these are good subs in littoral waters. But i do presume we need deeper ocean depth subs which can do longer patrolling at open oceans and quietly sneak in around hostile territories as part of becoming a proper blue ocean navy. This is known as "extended dive endurance" (clearly because of AIP)

Now if i further break it down and say we need subs which can do
  • anti-surface warfare
  • anti-submarine warfare
  • special operations
  • intelligence gathering
  • offensive minelaying
  • area surveillance and blockade
  • land strikes against land-based objectives
etc

The Kilo main trump card is its cost effectivemess which gave developing nation a chance to procure strategic under sea capabilities with a fraction of a price but in greater quantity and this is important. So our procurement of yesteryears and its upgrades does make sense. But going forward with more capable submarines and far more complex operations in hand with advancement in ASW capabilities, they dont pack the same punch what they may have 15 years back.


So for next 15 years, i do believe that a legacy system like Kilo class subs may not be effective for Indian navy needs. IF we do want a credible sub fleet, we need many subs beyond Kilos to be there by 2025-30 timelines an dof course beyond 2030 timelines, the maturity of N sub program should come online.
Upgraded kilos are still formidable for the foreseeable future considering russia is still producing it and chinese SSKs are not good enough to match them. After 2022 P75I and P76 will start coming to fill in. We know nothing more about Pipavav partnership to make assumptions about future chances.(based on the current data we can make same assumptions about L&T and MDL).
I think, It is unreasonable to ask for brahmos VL in P75I. when no country currently operates such a heavy missile in VL in a SSK, on top of that you want AIP too? I strongly believe RFP will not insist for VLS. (Only chance is introduction of brahmos NG)

@Penguin is there any navy currently operates SSK with VL and AIP ?
(AFAIK Type 32 is not operational)
 
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Well the Navy is clear that it wants land attack capabilities with P75I, so I think that VLS will be insisted upon.
Else, can an enlarged torpedo tube work?
 
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@Penguin is there any navy currently operates SSK with VL and AIP ?
(AFAIK Type 32 is not operational)
There are SSN and SSGNs with 12 cell Mk-45 VLS in US Navy service.
Mk-45 vertical launching system VLS submarine

THere is also something called VPM (Virginia class Payload module) which could help transform SSBNs into 'arsenal ships'
http://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/issues/archives/issue_47/virginia.html

Russia has offered a hull plug with vls tubes for Yahont and Club missiles for its Amur line of subs.
Amur-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Afaik that's the state of affairs regarding VLS on subs.

There are SSKs with AIP. There currently aren't any SSK with VLS systems
 
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Great news...Keep the production line at MDL up and running.....Scorpeans wont become obsolete even after 20 years considering the quality of enemies we have to face....so lets build them in numbers, add AIP and more advance features as the time passes!
 
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Great news...Keep the production line at MDL up and running.....Scorpeans wont become obsolete even after 20 years considering the quality of enemies we have to face....so lets build them in numbers, add AIP and more advance features as the time passes!
Scorpenes have first entered service in 2005. They have lots of life left (30 years) and if modernized along the way will remain effective for a long time. The quality of potential foes has no bearing or relevance on this.
 
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Scorpenes have first entered service in 2005. They have lots of life left (30 years) and if modernized along the way will remain effective for a long time. The quality of potential foes has no bearing or relevance on this.
dude, the quality of enemy country's defense hardware does make relevance when we augment our hardware..
 
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If this news turns out to be true, this probably would be the best decision by this government to date.
 
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VPM is a classic case. But i dont think India can get her hand on this. The latest i heard is TKMS and Saab developing HMPL (Horizotnal Multi Purpose Locks) enabling it to carry extra torpedoes, , missiles and undertake special missions.
Submarine Matters: TKMS and Saab developing Horizontal Multi-Purpose Locks (HMPLs)


The Amur VLS module as hull plug was first offerred in 2013 when Russia started courting India strongly for its subs under P75I. Initial proposal for such a plug was in 2007. Since the Brahmos itself has 3 variants as of now with the block 1/2 makes many including PSK states that its range is around 500km+ (550km). The block 3 test which was declined by MOD few months ago stated the lo-lo flightpath around 190-200km range giving it an impression that this missile also has similar 500-550 km plus range. "he Army's statement also said that the test, conducted at 'extended range' " and was withdrawn. This was widely discussed in this forum itself..Thus whether its Land attack mode or Anti Ship mode, this has has enabled Russians to provide a very lucrative option to IN and make the commonality among its platform soundbyte as motto.

If i recall correctly, Brahmos was also suppose to come to Kilo subs as plug module..But Russians could not do that for some reasons best known to them
Navy wants Brahmos in submarines | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
excerpts
The Navy, too, on its part has started the process of incorporating the weapon in its own systems. Designers are drawing up plans to mount the missile on a Kilo Class submarine. A kilo class submarine is a conventional diesel submarine that was first inducted into the Army two decades ago. “If this project works out, we will fit the missile in other Kilo class submarines

At first, Brahmos Corporation had suggested that it mount the missile on an Amur Class Russian submarine — a new line of conventional submarines for the Navy. But when the Navy showed its unwillingness to accept Amour as the second line of conventional submarines (French-made Scorpenes are the first of the two lines the Navy wants to develop), the firm had to refit the missile on one of the 10 Kilo Class submarines owned by the Navy.

Again the whole discussion is based on ifs and buts as we dont have rfp with us and we are all guesstimating. We may end up with just AIP only and move on with Brahmos integration to bigger subs in N program could with Cruise Missiles.
 
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@INDIAISM

Sweden has less experience?

Well they are at par if not better than any onther western nation when it comes at making SSKs.
They have manufactured Gotland class and also supplied submarines to Singapore. The AIP system of Sweden is used by Japan and China too. If anything, they are experienced and very good at submarine building.
 
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