Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880- 1930)

[M. Sarmad]

I understand that a lot of low caste Hindus & Sikhs also converted at the time of partition to save their lives and avoid the looting of what little property they had. The converted Muslims were called Massali and those who converted to Christianity were called Chuhra or Karanta.

With all due respect, sir, what you are stating is incorrect. The Chuhras had converted to Christianity long before partition. And 'Deendars' were not the low caste Chuhra converts only . Please read through this thread
Regards

Don't you think that it is far beyond that and it is not limited only to the "Churhas" and like. A large part of our society still considers "Kammi" (Worker), a "Kameen" (Low Life), and this compound phrase " Kammi Kameen" is very commonly used, to represent these unfortunate people.

You are right.. This discrimination is not limited to Chuhras only, but the scale and magnitude of the suffering of Chuhras in Punjab is not comparable to that of others ..

 

[SIPRA]

You are right.. This discrimination is not limited to Chuhras only, but the scale and magnitude of the suffering of Chuhras in Punjab is not comparable to that of others (i.e Non Muslim Kammis)

Agree.

 

[B.K.N]

You are right.. This discrimination is not limited to Chuhras only, but the scale and magnitude of the suffering of Chuhras in Punjab is not comparable to that of others ..

Sir ji I think this descrimination has more to do with their profession than ancestry
as a lot of them work as sweepers and this profession is considered low
the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it

I was very young at the time of partition

Sir how old are you

 

[niaz]

Sir ji I think this descrimination has more to do with their profession than ancestry
as a lot of them work as sweepers and this profession is considered low
the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it



Sir how old are you

I was born in 1943

 

[B.K.N]

I was born in 1943

76 years old
I was born in 1997

 

[M. Sarmad]

the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it

Chuhra is a caste name that has been recorded as such in the official documents of British India. The first regular census of British India was carried out in 1881 and Denzil Ibbetson has recorded that Chuhras prefer to be called 'Chuhras' as they consider other names for their castes such as 'Bhangi' to be derogatory.

 

[B.K.N]

Chuhra is a caste name that has been recorded as such in the official documents of British India. The first regular census of British India carried out in 1881 and Denzil Ibbetson has recorded that Chuhras prefer to be called Chuhras as they consider other names for their castes such as 'Bhangi' to be derogatory.

But here if I call a mussali a chuhra he would feel offended
In childhood days in fight with a mussali boy he said to me
Apni aukat main raho ham musali Hain chohray nhi

 

[SIPRA]

Sir ji I think this descrimination has more to do with their profession than ancestry
as a lot of them work as sweepers and this profession is considered low
the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it

In an iconic book, entitled "Dabastan e Mazahib", which was written by an Indian Parsi, in about 1650, and which documents all the religions of India, in an impartial manner, "Churha" is mentioned as one of lowest castes of Hinduism, who are associated with the janitorial profession. Their dietary norms include killing and eating virtually all types of animals.

 

[M. Sarmad]

But here if I call a mussali a chuhra he would feel offended
In childhood days in fight with a mussali boy he said to me
Apni aukat main raho ham musali Hain chohray nhi

Almost all the Chuhras west of Lahore are Musalmans, and they are very commonly called Musalli or Kutana, the two terms being apparently- almost synonymous, but Kutana being chiefly used in the south- west and Musalli in the north-west. In Sirsa the converted Chuhra Is called Dindar or faithful as a term of respect, or Khojab, a euimch, in satirical allusion to his circumcision, or, as sometimes interpreted, Khoja, one who has found salvation. But it appears that in many parts The Musalman Chuhra continues to be called Chuhra so long as he eats carrion or removes night-soil, and is only promoted to the title of Musalli on his relinquishing those habits, the Musalli being considered distinctly a higher class than the Chuhra. On the other hand the Musalli of the frontier towns does remove night-soil. On the Peshawar frontier the Musalli Is the grave-digger as well as the sweeper, and is said to be some times called Shahi Khel, though this latter title would seem to be more generally used for Chuhras who have settled on the upper Indus and taken to working in grass and reeds ....

(p. 319, Panjab Census Report, 17 Feb 1881 by Denzil Ibbetson, published 1883)

 

[Crusher]

People use there qoum like sial bhatti etc
There are different titles of these qoums or tribes like
Mahr M.Sarmad Sial or Rai M.Sarmad Bhatti
No one calls himself rajput or jat etc don't know what is rajput but jat means kisan
And I am from Pakistan

Both jat and rajput were originally non-punjabi titles which got associated with the local farmer and small ruling clans over the time due to non-punjabi non-local influences. The word "jat" was first mentioned in arab chronicles of Sindh invasions in 8th century, the word "rajput" originated in what is now Rajasthan of india. How these two non-punjabi titles landed in modern punjab and got integrated with various local castes/clans in punjab is really a mystery. But I have noticed that these Jat/Rajput titles have more of an eastern punjab origin rather than a western punjab origin in historical sense. Historical discourse is a funny phenomenon where various titles of non-local origins get associated with the local clans over the time, for example "khan" is originally a mongolian/turkic title but it is also freely used by many clans as a symbol of respect, same applies to "malik" which is originally an "arabic" title for landlords/military commanders/noble men etc but in punjab it got associated with big landlords of south punjab for example or in erstwhile FATA with the clan head chiefs who were all called "Malik".

Don't you think that it is far beyond that and it is not limited only to the "Churhas" and like. A large part of our society still considers "Kammi" (Worker), a "Kameen" (Low Life), and this compound phrase " Kammi Kameen" is very commonly used, to represent these unfortunate people.

There has indeed been a bias towards people who actually worked with hands in punjab society, for example useful craftsment like carpenters, lohars, potters, weavers, water carriers, peasants etc. were all called "kammi" because they had to work really hard to make their ends meet. But a landlord chaudhry sahab or malik sahab who only used to sit on his charpai with huqqa and had peasants working on his fields was the noble man.

This mindset still persists among pakistanis that is why we are "unfit" to run a modern economy where everyone is supposed to "work" and not "sit" on his bed or chair with a sense of entitlement while smoking cigarettes day in and day out. All the successful economies in the world like USA, Germany, Japan etc. are economically strong because they "honor" the dignity of work and the worker, work is kind of "god" for them so one who works is the noble man for them and not the one who sits on his bed or chair all day along with the sense of "entitlement" because he owns a big chunk of land.

 

[SIPRA]

There has indeed been a bias towards people who actually worked with hands in punjab society, for example useful craftsment like carpenters, lohars, potters, weavers, water carriers, peasants etc. were all called "kammi" because they had to work really hard to make there ends meet. But a landlord chaudhry sahab or malik sahab who only used to sit on his charpai with huqqa and had peasants working on his fields was the noble man.

This mindset still persists among pakistanis that is why we are "unfit" to run a modern economy where everyone is supposed to "work" and not "sit" on his bed or chair while smoking cigarettes day in and day out. All the successful economies in the world like USA, Germany, Japan etc. are economically strong because they "honor" the dignity of work and the worker, work is kind of "god" for them so one who works is the noble man for them and not the one who sits on his bed or chair all day along because he owns a big chunk of land.

Well said.

 

[Rusty]

@Taimur Khurram
You sir are amazing. I have never seen such a beautiful take down of a science denying hindutva scum as you just showed.

Hindutva hateful ideology is based on "Hinduism is indigenous"
The whole world knows that Hinduism came from the Indo-European invaders and so destroys Hindutva hateful ideology.

These Hindutva scum don't believe in science, remember how they brought up "vedic science" at an actual science conference?

 

[B.K.N]

titles

Every qaum or tribe uses there own title
like here in my area sials and braches of sial like bharwana sargana chuchkana and a lot of other tribes use mahr as title bhattis use Rai as title this title thing is similar to balochs like bugtis and marris use Mir as title

weavers

People usually make fun of Weavers they are called pawli
and there are a lot of punjabi jokes on them but don't know why

 

[M. Sarmad]

There has indeed been a bias towards people who actually worked with hands in punjab society, for example useful craftsment like carpenters, lohars, potters, weavers, water carriers, peasants etc. were all called "kammi" because they had to work really hard to make their ends meet. But a landlord chaudhry sahab or malik sahab who only used to sit on his charpai with huqqa and had peasants working on his fields was the noble man.

This mindset still persists among pakistanis that is why we are "unfit" to run a modern economy where everyone is supposed to "work" and not "sit" on his bed or chair with a sense of entitlement while smoking cigarettes day in and day out. All the successful economies in the world like USA, Germany, Japan etc. are economically strong because they "honor" the dignity of work and the worker, work is kind of "god" for them so one who works is the noble man for them and not the one who sits on his bed or chair all day along with the sense of "entitlement" because he owns a big chunk of land.

This bias in Punjab society has more to do with the 3500 years long influence of the Vedic Varna (class/caste) System that categorized certain professions and people as 'impure' and 'polluted'. 'Working with one's hands' or 'hard work' itself was not looked down upon as the Jats of Punjab (with their women and children alike) had been historically engaged in manual agriculture; a very challenging task physically. Only the big landlords (they were far and few between) who were too proud to cultivate with their own hands used to employ Barwalas, Chamars, Chuhras etc. as ploughmen and field laborers.

The laborers (or Shudras) were not included in the Varna System originally and after a millennia-long segregation they were finally allowed into the folds of Hindu society (partly because of the mixing of Foreigner 'higher' class with the local 'lower' class over centuries) as the Fourth Varna, at the foot of the social ladder which they of course were not allowed to 'climb'. But the pure aboriginal communities were never accepted in the society, they remained 'outcasts' and eventually became the Fifth class; the Dalits or untouchables.

The landless and poverty-stricken vagrant, menial and artisan castes fell within the 4th and 5th classes. In the Muslim dominated western parts of the Punjab, the discrimination against Shudras was significantly less compared to the eastern parts (and the rest of Hindu dominated India). However, the lowest of the low, i.e. Dalits, were not accepted into the folds of the society even in the Muslim dominated areas. They were caused to be segregated and will continue to be caused to remain segregated by us until and unless we completely remove the unwholesome influence of the Vedic Varna System from our society.

 

[Crusher]

People usually make fun of Weavers they are called pawli
and there are a lot of punjabi jokes on them but don't know why

There is a reason behind it, many people in pakistani punjab don't know but both "mochi" (shoe maker) and "julaha" (weaver) were the relatively "clean professions" adopted mainly by people who were originally leather workers "chammars". The bias against "julaha" weavers in punjab is due to their predominantly "chammar" origins just like mochis.