Manmohan Singh blames US NGOs for anti-nuclear demonstrations

[Neuro]

Tsunamis are not common in that area & earthquakes of the magnitude that happened in Japan are never heard of. If an earthquake of that magnitude hit TN, the nuclear plant is the last thing that anyone needs to be worried about. No building in India will survive that earthquake. There won't be many people living to worry themselves about the nuclear plant. The arguments against this plant that base it w.r.t what happened in Japan are pretty much stupid. India is not in a similar seismic zone as Japan & faces no similar threat. In any case what exactly did happen in Fukushima? Even with such an old plant the Japanese were able to contain it with almost no major fallout. In India, chemical factories could be far more dangerous than a nuclear plant. An earthquake could possibly destroy dams & kill millions living downstream. Does that mean that all dams must be scrapped so that people can start dying now without access to water?

The arguments against this plant are not based on facts. An NGO & a bunch of fishermen & women protesting does not make them experts on the matter. Yesterday I watched one of the guys from the NGO on TV & he was suggesting that this "nuclear plant" be converted into a thermal plant. Yeah, brilliant expert that!

Wat you blabbering have u completed schooling at least. First nature is uncertain second dams , chemical factories more prone to kill or create somatic cell mutation not germinal mutation which nuclear does.

on topic:I am supporting nuclear plant in Koodankulam.

 

[pmukherjee]

Tidal wave, solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen fuel cells, bio gas etc etc. Why are we even talking of all these options now when it is only the nuclear power generation which is currently on the table. That too after expenditure of huge sums of taxpayer's money, the work on the plant has been brought to a halt, thanks to funds flowing in from the US. Isn't it time for the govt to say, OK, Tamil Nadu does not want this, so lets scrap the entire heap, write off the losses and move to another state which is serious about improving its power availability situation? I think it is time to shut the entire sorry chapter and move on.

 

[trinity]

I'm sorry but the Japanese diaster point is a non-starter only used by ignorant people (not you, in general). The Fikushima incident has been blown so out of proportion all around the world. This incident needs to be looked at and properly understood, the proximity of the plant to a active tectonic zone was a real concern which India does not need to have. What happened at Fukushima was tragic but a culmination of unique circumstances. Every single Nuclear power plant in India is more technologically advanced with more safety and back up systems than the Fukushima plant. Because of VERY strict rules by the Indian atomic agency all nuclear power plants are made with more back-up systems than the industry norm (including present at Fukushima) so a repeat of what happened at Fukushima- all back up generators failing leading to the stopping of water pumps is almost impossible in any Indian nuclear power plant. Additionally according to rules from the India atomic agency all nuclear power plants must also have passive cooling systems free from all electrical input, so if power did go down the reactor could still be cooled. All the measures would prevent an Indian Fukushima-FACT. Not to mention post Fukushima, MMS ordered a review of all nuclear power plants regarding a similar incident in India and all power plants were found to have easily passed the tests because they are all state of the art and more technologically advanced than Fukushima.


It is no exaggeration to say, because of the rules imposed by the Indian atomic agency, the Indian atomic energy sector is the most advanced and safe in the world, bar NONE.

Thank you for replying with valid points and a mature attitude. I also agree that the Nuclear plant should be built. I was concerned with safety thats all. I brought the other sources as ways to diversify our energy sources so we are not dependent on particular method. Its a win win if we diversify and meet the demand for electricity in India by doing so because we would gain expertise and create an industry for our domestic needs


In partcular I looked for the safety features, which I could source. I tried looking at AED website but no luck. Thanks to you I have some more insight. I think what needs to be done is to simly clam ppl fears over there.

Like someone else stated, proof should be provided by making such accusation. MMS looks like a fool without doing so. I think the main concern for the fisherman is their livelihood, where the reactor will source its water, etc. I gave a link from Wiki stating the last para states the fishermen's issues which seem to not be answered. If the politicans answered, then there should be no problem right?




There is a simple solution to this problem. The Uday Kumar group says their livelihood and the future of their children will be affected. The government says nothing like that will happen. I saw a program in a television channel about a Korean King who used to eat food made out of agricultural and animal produce in turns from every region of his country thus knowing about the welfare of his country. Now let the prime minister and his cabinet along with the parliament, the state assembly and chief minister and everybody in Koodankulam village come together one day in a year and drink water from its wells, and eat animal( marine and land based) and agricultural produce from that village. This will restore confidence in the villagers and we can also be sure that everything is okay with the plant, since the top leadership themselves will be partaking in the feast every year. I hope Koodankulam problem will resolve soon and we get power continuously.

---------- Post added at 01:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

Tidal wave, solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen fuel cells, bio gas etc etc. Why are we even talking of all these options now when it is only the nuclear power generation which is currently on the table. That too after expenditure of huge sums of taxpayer's money, the work on the plant has been brought to a halt, thanks to funds flowing in from the US. Isn't it time for the govt to say, OK, Tamil Nadu does not want this, so lets scrap the entire heap, write off the losses and move to another state which is serious about improving its power availability situation? I think it is time to shut the entire sorry chapter and move on.

Simply we need to diverisfy our sources of energy. You think all of India;s probems will be solved when electircity is provided?NO sir. The problems will be there unless we change. The issue with the plant is safety. When gov;t scientists are stating more checks should be done, then how do you defend it? The last statement was from the TOI....

 

[trinity]

Answer for green in green.

Dude I don't know how many times I can repeat this. I really think you are pretending to be blind now. I told you I never made the point that the data from TVM power plant was used to conclude in favour of nuclear power. WHen you made that point, I told you it was a simplistic misunderstanding on your part, and not the reality. And you still continue to accuse me of saying that, in your supposedly sarcastic sentence. I cannot keep repeating this. For the last time. Data from that plant was NOT used to favour nuclear power. The only point I made by bringing that was to say it can only produce 150 kilowatts, and not gigawatts of energy. The rest is - and I'm telling you for the fifth and last time - your own misunderstanding of the point.


Also - you keep saying that it was built in 1991, and accuse me of foolishness for thinking that the samw will apply today. Can you tell me what has changed between 1991 and 2012, that changes things now? What new developments have come in that field now to make it orders of magnitude more productive?

I answered your point about safety several times. You are going on asking. I told you these reactors are a generation ahead on safety issues from the ones in fukushima. If you want to know, here is why. First of all, do you know what caused the safety concerns at Fukushima? Because the flooding wiped out the power supply for cooling the reactor core. The design at koodankulam has FOUR REDUNDANT AND INDEPENDENT emergency cooling systems, for such an eventuality. Unless four tusnamis from four different sides wipe them all out, power will not be lost.

This newspaper report gives you the number of institutions that have inspected the reactors and declared them to be safe. These include the atomic energy commission of India, the International atomic energy agency (IAEA), the Bhaba atomic reseach center (BARC), and IITs.

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article2612339.ece

The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Fukushima no yardstick to oppose Kudankulam project: IGCAR chief

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/kudankulam-plant-very-well-protected-aerb

In addition, here is APJ Abdul Kalam saying it too:
Kudankulam plant safe: APJ Abdul Kalam - The Times of India



And again you are accusing me of fibbing. I'm sure you remember that I did not fib, you had misread the sentence. I said "one of the largest" and you thought I said "largest". You admitted it yourself then. It shows a certain fundamental dishonesty that after a few posts you again say I fibbed, because it may go unnoticed. Underhanded tricks.

You said that you "read in a report" that China is going to make 1500 GW of green energy. Could you please tell us which "report" that was? Because the reality is that they are aiming for something like one by thousandth of that. Maybe you might want to stop exaggerating by a factor of thousand to prove a wild claim.

So here is the long and short of it. You brought up two points only as far as I can see. One, safety. I have explained several times, including in this post. Two, you brought up green energy. As I said several times, green energy can never produce anywhere near what we want. So both these points don't hold water, and I don't think you have made any other arguments.

It is kind of sad that you have to self declare yourself as the "winner". Usually participants let the viewers judge that for themselves. In this case, the readers can see who is making cogent arguments, and when you have to tell everyone that you won, it kind of sets one thinking, doesn't it? On the internet, this is called Danth's law or Parker's law. It says that:

If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly.

Danth's Law - RationalWiki
Internet rules and laws: the top 10, from Godwin to Poe - Telegraph
(See number 6).

Bullshit....fundamnetal liar? You do realize how many posts I put forth yet you up BS sources and a nuclear scientist. You realize folks made mistakes and I have the balls to admit so. Yet, you dont; even address any points I made. Why? Coz you cannot find an answer to it right?

Read the link I sent you about china.....They are committed to making renewable energy give 500 GW out of a proposed 25oo GW by 2020. Does 500 GW seem like one of thouandth to you? NOW who is the fundamental liar? I suggest you read the link I sent you.

The Hindu as a source...come on guy?


As for the points....you lost again. First, safety you point out one feature in particular thats it? What about the problem with radiation leakage? Do the local authorities supply KI pills? Do they have an abundant supply? What is the state of preparedness of the police, emergency personnel, and military in such an event?

Two, I said green tech should complement Nuclear energy so again you lost. You make up your own points and as I have consistently pointed out loser in numerous posts that you fail to comprehend. Yes, reader will realize what a turd you are. You cannot address properly what I have put forth. So put up or shut up. YOu understand that.

 

[pmukherjee]

Simply we need to diverisfy our sources of energy. You think all of India;s probems will be solved when electircity is provided?NO sir. The problems will be there unless we change. The issue with the plant is safety. When gov;t scientists are stating more checks should be done, then how do you defend it? The last statement was from the TOI....

No one should disagree with the proposal of additional security or safety measures. But there should be stop to this agitation when the additional measures are put in place. The question is whether the US funding of the agitation ever allow it to stop.

 

[trinity]

No one should disagree with the proposal of additional security or safety measures. But there should be stop to this agitation when the additional measures are put in place. The question is whether the US funding of the agitation ever allow it to stop.

Thank you a sane man in the room finally! It only took a 100 posts lol. 110% the agitiations should be stopped if and when the these measures are in place. Do not ever blindly follow any gov;t, always question the merits and look at the whole picture. The question of foreign unded NGO's meddling in affairs should be addresses and right fully so. But should not MMS provide solid proof if he is going to make wild claims? Where is the proof? Whatever happened to the law and justice? Are we a Banana Republic? I posted a link of the fishermens concerns which are mainly dealing with water sourcing and their livelihood which are resonble concerns. The gov;t say one thing, the scientists involved more testing should be done, etc. Whom Do I believe?

Let me make one important point, If I believe the politicans, well I would be believe that Mullaperiyar Dam will last 1000 yrs right?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Bullshit....fundamnetal liar? You do realize how many posts I put forth yet you up BS sources and a nuclear scientist. You realize folks made mistakes and I have the balls to admit so. Yet, you dont; even address any points I made. Why? Coz you cannot find an answer to it right?

Read the link I sent you about china.....They are committed to making renewable energy give 500 GW out of a proposed 25oo GW by 2020. Does 500 GW seem like one of thouandth to you? NOW who is the fundamental liar? I suggest you read the link I sent you.

The Hindu as a source...come on guy?


As for the points....you lost again. First, safety you point out one feature in particular thats it? What about the problem with radiation leakage? Do the local authorities supply KI pills? Do they have an abundant supply? What is the state of preparedness of the police, emergency personnel, and military in such an event?

Two, I said green tech should complement Nuclear energy so again you lost. You make up your own points and as I have consistently pointed out loser in numerous posts that you fail to comprehend. Yes, reader will realize what a turd you are. You cannot address properly what I have put forth. So put up or shut up. YOu understand that.

what problem u have with the hindu?
Regarding politics it is one of the best papers in india....
Ask any IAS officer how did he prepare for his exams...
The Hindu will defenitely would be a part of his curriculum....
And there is a possibility of Funding of NGO by foreign sources..
Look all people protesting are middle income families, so if they stay out of work for a few days, their means of earning gets lost in a month...
Then how can they sustain it for 6 months?
They need to answer many questions to the media....
and kudankulam plants are best in our country.... APJ kalam sir has testified.... so what nore assurance we want?

 

[lynx]

@ trinity: We are a developing country with very little cash to spare. So we want the biggest bang for the buck and currently only thermal, hydel and nuke can fulfill our energy needs. Due to environmental and pollution concerns, nobody likes big dams and thermal power stations..so that leaves only nuclear. We don't have the time or luxury to experiment with alternate power sources. Let the developed countries like US do that and if they are successful we will look into it.

 

[trinity]

@ trinity: We are a developing country with very little cash to spare. So we want the biggest bang for the buck and currently only thermal, hydel and nuke can fulfill our energy needs. Due to environmental and pollution concerns, nobody likes big dams and thermal power stations..so that leaves only nuclear. We don't have the time or luxury to experiment with alternate power sources. Let the developed countries like US do that and if they are successful we will look into it.

Ok lynx..I hear where you are coming....my intentions were meant well. Hopefully, India will address the issue of safety and move on with the project. I know India needs it.

 

[lynx]

Ok lynx..I hear where you are coming....my intentions were meant well. Hopefully, India will address the issue of safety and move on with the project. I know India needs it.

We are operating more than 20 nuclear reactors and till now we have no major accidents like the 'Three Mile Island' in US..same goes to our nuke bombs.

 

[trinity]

what problem u have with the hindu?
Regarding politics it is one of the best papers in india....
Ask any IAS officer how did he prepare for his exams...
The Hindu will defenitely would be a part of his curriculum....
And there is a possibility of Funding of NGO by foreign sources..
Look all people protesting are middle income families, so if they stay out of work for a few days, their means of earning gets lost in a month...
Then how can they sustain it for 6 months?
They need to answer many questions to the media....
and kudankulam plants are best in our country.... APJ kalam sir has testified.... so what nore assurance we want?

I understand. I did not know the Hindu was used by the IAS to prepare. I trust Kalam and I have heard him vouch for the plant. MMS making the accustion of foreign funded NGO;s, I am asking where is the proof?

A particular distressing point is that the gov;t and politicans count on protesters to just get up and leave so they can continue on. That is an issue, because like you mentioned the average family cannot live more than 6 months without working. So, tht means the gov;t didnt answer the questions posed to them by these protesters all this time? Whats up with that? So, they have to protest 6 months and they still cannot get an answer. What would Gandhi do?

i know we need nuclear energy but this comes full circle to my previous arguement, what has happened to the Ana Hazare movement? The gov;t is doing the same tactics, by wasting time and not giving answers...

At the end of the day, Its up to you. Remember, those ppl are like you. They may be fishermen but they are human beings with families to look after. More importantly, they are your brothers. Remember that, if you don;t care about your own ppl, I ask who will?

 

[Bang Galore]

Wat you blabbering have u completed schooling at least. First nature is uncertain second dams , chemical factories more prone to kill or create somatic cell mutation not germinal mutation which nuclear does.

Err... what exactly is your point here? Nature is uncertain? So, what do you propose? To prepare for volcanic eruptions even if there is no active volcano on mainland India? You other point is simply a display of the cussedness that inhabits some who are quibbling over what sort of death is preferable. I'm sure you think that all victims of road accidents & their families would be delighted that they didn't die from a "somatic cell mutation" & instead died from something more mundane. I refrain from commenting on your schooling, common sense is not something that they can necessarily do anything about. "Blabbering" would be be a more apt description for the kind of post referred above.

on topic:I am supporting nuclear plant in Koodankulam.

Really?? what was all the babble about "somatic cell mutation" then? Maybe you were proudly informing us about your schooling & your knowledge of terms like "somatic cell mutation"? Bring your arguments here, if you can muster one up. Leave the certificate issuing at home.

 

[trinity]

We are operating more than 20 nuclear reactors and till now we have no major accidents like the 'Three Mile Island' in US..same goes to our nuke bombs.

I beg to differ lynx. I have to look for it, but there are numerous reports but accidents in India;s nuclear plants. YOu are right though, I think none were at the magnitude or scale of 3 miles Island but groundwater contamination is still a huge problem. Indian Point, NY is leaked toxic chemicals in the groundwater and the NY Governor has gone a record to announce he will work to close the plant, even though costs would go up. The issue is what number determies safety and non safety. That is completely up to numeous sources but each can be different.

A lot of details were released when India was trying to get US support at the NSG.

 

[Bang Galore]

MMS making the accustion of foreign funded NGO;s, I am asking where is the proof?

I believe the government has given the NGO's a chance to challenge that assertion. The government has cancelled the licenses of three NGO's who are accused of diverting funds to fuel the protests. If they want to/can, I believe the NGO's can knock on the court's doors & see how they fare against the governments "proof".


Kudankulam protests: 3 NGOs lose licence for diverting fund

The Union Home Ministry has cancelled the licences of three non-govermental organisations operating in southern Tamil Nadu on the charge that they diverted funds for the protests against the Kudankula Nuclear Power Plant.

The action follows Prime Minister Manmohan Singh‘s comments to Science magazine that suggested that US non-governmental organisations were behind the agitation, which has stalled work on the nuclear plant in power-starved Tamil Nadu. The first of the two 1000-MW reactors, being built with Russian help, was to have been decommissioned in December 2011, but work on the project has been suspended since August 2011 after the protests intesified.

Singh’s comments had whipped up a controversy, with the leader of the protest movement SP Udayakamar challenging the Prime Minister to prove his charge – or resign.

Minister of State in the Prime Minister’s Office V Narayanasamy on Friday confirmed the action against the three NGOs, but did not disclose their names. But earlier this month, Narayanasamy had alleged that NGOs administered by Tuticorin church leader, Bishop Yvon Ambroise, had received foreign funds to the tune of Rs 54 crore. Ambroise has been active in mobilising popular support for the anti-nuclear protests.

Narayanasamy also alleged then that a third NGO run by Udayakumar, who heads the People’s Movement Against Nuclear Energy, had received Rs 1.5 crore in foreign funds. He had said then that if the NGOs were not shown to have maintained proper accounts for the expenditure on these amounts, the Home Ministry would initiate stringent action against them for violation of the Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act (FCRA).

The NGOs associated with Ambroise are the Tuticorin Diocese Association (TDA) and the Tuticorin Multipurpose Social Service Society (TMSSS). Indian Express reports that both these NGOs had FCRA clearance until last year, but their names have now been removed from the home ministry website listing over 42,000 NGOs having FCRA clearance.

The Home Ministry notes on its website that TMSSS received Rs 42 crore from abroad in the last five years (details here) for rural development work, and that TDA received Rs 23 crore.

Many other Christian organistions, including People’s Education for Action and Liberation (PEAL) and Good Vision, are also under the Home Ministry scanner for alleged funding of the anti-nuclear protest movement.

Udayakumar told CNN-IBN that his organisation had not received even a single rupee from abroad. “I am willing to undergo capital punishment if the allegation that I received foreign funding is proved,” he said.

In his interview to Science magazine (report here), Singh had said that that foreign NGOs did not appreciate India’s need to make use of high-technology like nuclear energy or genetically-engineered crops for the sake of development.

“You know… what is happening in Kudankulam,” he told Pallava Bagla. “The atomic energy programme has got into difficulties because these NGOs, mostly I think based in the United States, don’t appreciate our country to increase the energy supply,” Singh said.

Singh also noted that NGOs based in the US and in Scandinavia had effectively blocked the commercialisation of Bt brinjal in 2010. “There are NGOs, often funded from the United States and the Scandinavian countries, which are not fully appreciative of the development challenges that our country faces,” Singh said.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/kuda...-lose-licence-for-diverting-funds-224821.html

 

[janon]

Bullshit....fundamnetal liar? You do realize how many posts I put forth yet you up BS sources and a nuclear scientist. You realize folks made mistakes and I have the balls to admit so. Yet, you dont; even address any points I made. Why? Coz you cannot find an answer to it right?

Read the link I sent you about china.....They are committed to making renewable energy give 500 GW out of a proposed 25oo GW by 2020. Does 500 GW seem like one of thouandth to you? NOW who is the fundamental liar? I suggest you read the link I sent you.

The Hindu as a source...come on guy?


As for the points....you lost again. First, safety you point out one feature in particular thats it? What about the problem with radiation leakage? Do the local authorities supply KI pills? Do they have an abundant supply? What is the state of preparedness of the police, emergency personnel, and military in such an event?

Two, I said green tech should complement Nuclear energy so again you lost. You make up your own points and as I have consistently pointed out loser in numerous posts that you fail to comprehend. Yes, reader will realize what a turd you are. You cannot address properly what I have put forth. So put up or shut up. YOu understand that.

Yes, the hindu as a source. It is one of the most reliable media sources on the planet, and the most objective. You calling the hindu a BS source kind of tells everyone how desperate you are becoming. Anybody on this forum will tell you it is one of the best sources from India possible. You really don't know much, do you? Ask anybody on this forum if there is a more reliable news source than the hindu for pure news.

You can search any other news source for the same reports, by the way. You can find statements by the chairmen of the IAEA, the NERA, BARC and the atomic energy commission. On the one hand we have personalities like these, and Anil Kakodkar, and Abdul Kalam stating unambigously that the plant is safe, and giving reasons for it. On the other hand we have you and a hundred and twenty fishermen saying it is not safe. Gee, I wonder which side to believe.

I mentioned the one safety feature that makes this plant safer than fukushima in the event of a tsunami, when you kept on saying that I couldn't address that. Several other new safety features common to 3+ generation reactors are mentioned in the sources I put up. Go through them.

So when you questioned the safety, and went on about how I can't answer that point, I explained the particular safety feature that was relevant, and I showed you reports of all the relevant and eminent people in the field agreeing. I have put up what you asked. Time to end your verbal diarrhea and personal insults, which you started off with, continued, and cant seem to stop.

If the relevant authorities have decided that having double layered concrete walls capable of withstranding nuclear explosions, earthquakes or tsunamis, and having quadruple redundant safety features are more important than your demand for magic KI pills, I tend to give more weight to that.

Again...I know you have been claiming that green tech should complement nuclear. In which case, I said pointedly that it is irrelevant to the question of shutting down nuclear plants.

I think it is time to agree that you don't really have a point, other than your charming tactic of hurling insults in tortous sentences. The green tech issue is irrelevant, the safety features you didn't know about do exist. As confirmed by all the necessary authorities who's opinion matters. End of story. Stop these endless posts full of sound and fury and little substance, because it just shows your desperation and juvenility. Grow up.

And in future, never forget Danth's law.