Makkah and the hajj in the 1880's, photos of pilgrims from across the world

[al-Hasani]

Arabic - the Lingua Franca of the Islamic World ?

We Ajmis (non-Arabs) out number you guys by something like 5 to 1 !

So its our languages that are the dominant Languages of the Muslim World !

We are still nearly 450 million and growing at a fast speed. You can't escape from us.

It's unfair to make a comparison where one party has like 200 languages and the other just 1.

My point is that Arabic is a very rich language that has influenced nearly all if not all languages spoken in the Islamic world - some more than others, (let alone some of the "Western languages" in particular greatly Spanish and Portuguese) and that it was and still is the lingua franca of the Islamic world for obvious reasons such as religious, historical, in terms of influence etc.

Another of my silent points is that many clerics can tend to have a bad understanding of Islam due to them not even understanding what they are reading/reciting due to them not knowing Classical Arabic (Quranic Arabic) well enough. Hence the sometimes idiotic "fatwas" we hear from time to time. Sometimes they cannot even pronounce the words right!

Anyway let us try to stick to the topic.

I think the gentleman in the video at 1:28 is the Shaibi I met.

Yes, those are Shaybis. Nice video. Well-respected family that has served Islam greatly.

 

[SQ8]

Arabic is the lingua franca of the Islamic world. Always was and always will be.

It is the language of the Quran which is why it will ALWAYS hold a special place regardless of Arabs or Persians or any of gods beings.

 

[al-Hasani]

It is the language of the Quran which is why it will ALWAYS hold a special place regardless of Arabs or Persians or any of gods beings.

Well hence Arabic (Classical Arabic) being the lingua franca of the Islamic world from the birth of Islam until now. And due to other factors as well.

But at the end of the day it is "just" a language. Everybody can learn a language. My point is just that Arabic is a world language and a very rich one that has influenced languages spoken in the Muslim world and in the non-Muslim world to a great extent. With or without Islam. But also greatly because of it. Clerics all over the world should improve their Arabic in order not to misguide the Muslims.

 

[al-Hasani]

Old photos of Makkah:















Old photos of Madinah and Al-Masjid an-Nabawi

 

[airmarshal]

Amazing @al-Hasani . Super thread. Great job

 

[al-Hasani]

Makkah in 1889



Makkah in 1934



Makkah in 1850



No date on this photo but looks like the 1940's or 1950's



Makkah in 1910



Makkah again







Makkah in 1910



Makkah during flooding - no date

 

[xenon54 out]

Ajyad Fortress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ajyad Fortress (Turkish: Ecyad Kalesi) was an Ottoman citadel which stood on a hill overlooking the Grand Mosque of Mecca, in what is now Saudi Arabia. Built in the late 18th century, it was destroyed by the Saudi government in 2002 for commercial development of the Mecca Royal Hotel Clock Tower, sparking global outcry.

Its a shame how this historic and one of the last Ottoman heritages got destroyed for commercial interests.


The Ajyad Fortress on the left in 1889

 

[al-Hasani]

@xenon54

Well a lot has been lost down the years. From the early Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) etc. Or all the local architecture and heritage. Some is still left but due to the obligations of enlarging the Al-Masjid Al-Haram this was a necessary evil. This is not really about commercial interests but about serving the pilgrims. 100 years ago or just 50 years ago there were many, many fewer pilgrims that arrived so there was not really a need for expanding the Al-Masjid Al-Haram but in the recent many years this situation has changed drastically and a expansion was the only solution. Many of the old buildings were also dangerous and in need of demolishment and they hindered the development of the area.

There is still significant heritage in the villages around Makkah and outskirts of the city but most pilgrims do not see this.

I suggest looking at this thread for more information:

Inspirational hajj pilgrimages to Makkah (and Madinah) | Pakistan Defence

 

[xenon54 out]

@xenon54

Well a lot has been lost down the years. From the early Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) etc. Or all the local architecture and heritage. Some is still left but due to the obligations of enlarging the Al-Masjid Al-Haram this was a necessary evil. This is not really about commercial interests but about serving the pilgrims. 100 years ago or just 50 years ago there were many, many fewer pilgrims that arrived so there was not really a need for expanding the Al-Masjid Al-Haram but in the recent many years this situation has changed drastically and a expansion was the only solution. Many of the old buildings were also dangerous and in need of demolishment and they hindered the development of the area.

There is still significant heritage in the villages around Makkah and outskirts of the city but most pilgrims do not see this.

I suggest looking at this thread for more information:

Inspirational hajj pilgrimages to Makkah (and Madinah) | Pakistan Defence

There is allways a way to protect historic buildings, we are not talking about a small house, its a historic fortress.
They could have built the hotels away from historic city center, thats how all developed countrys do it, almost all european cities have a historic city center where new building are strictly forbidden.

I cant imagine the uprising if Turkish goverment would decide to demolish the Anadolu Hisari to built a hotel.

Anadoluhisarı - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same happened in Gezi park, goverment wanted to demolish the park to build a shopping centre, but they got their anwer from Turkish people in a very uncomfortable way.

 

[KingMamba]

@xenon54

Well a lot has been lost down the years. From the early Caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid) etc. Or all the local architecture and heritage. Some is still left but due to the obligations of enlarging the Al-Masjid Al-Haram this was a necessary evil. This is not really about commercial interests but about serving the pilgrims. 100 years ago or just 50 years ago there were many, many fewer pilgrims that arrived so there was not really a need for expanding the Al-Masjid Al-Haram but in the recent many years this situation has changed drastically and a expansion was the only solution. Many of the old buildings were also dangerous and in need of demolishment and they hindered the development of the area.

There is still significant heritage in the villages around Makkah and outskirts of the city but most pilgrims do not see this.

I suggest looking at this thread for more information:

Inspirational hajj pilgrimages to Makkah (and Madinah) | Pakistan Defence

What is the average price for lodge in this complex?

 

[Arabian Legend]

 

[al-Hasani]

@xenon54

It is just a fortress. Built 250 years ago or so. It has no Islamic importance whatsoever.

It was necessary because it was done in order to expand the Al-Masjid Al-Haram and you can't just move the mosque or Kaaba to the outskirts of the city.

It was a necessary evil. Artifacts from the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates were also impacted. Let alone the local heritage and buildings as I explained. I would have loved nothing more as a Makkawi for that to have remained (some of it do and a lot in the outskirts of Makkah) but serving the pilgrims and the need for expanding Al-Masjid Al-Haram is above historical artifacts.

I really suggest that you take a look at the link I gave to you.

@KingMamba

But I have heard some rumors about this complex getting demolished in the future sometime in 2030 depending on whether further expansions will be made. You can be sure that it will not be their forever unlike Al-Masjid Al-Haram.

Makkah Hotels: Makkah Hotel at Fairmont

 

[xenon54 out]

It is just a fortress. Built 250 years ago or so. It has no Islamic importance whatsoever.

It was one of the last Ottoman Heritages in Mecca, Ottomans was one of the biggest Islamic empires, it may have no Religious importance but it has a historic importance.

In 1781 (or 1777 or 1780, according to some sources), the fortress was built in order to protect the Kaaba and Islamic shrines in Mecca from bandits and invaders. The fort covered some 23,000 m2 (250,000 sq ft) on Bulbul Mountain[1] (a spur of Jebel Kuda) overlooking the Masjid al-Haram from the south.

Ajyad Fortress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is from wiki article, do you still think it was a unimportant building?

It was necessary because it was done in order to expand the Al-Masjid Al-Haram and you can't just move the mosque or Kaaba to the outskirts of the city.

Actually they didnt really expand Al-Masjid Al-Haram, they just built a huge hotel next to it, i think they could just built hotels away from Kaaba.

Im not wiriting all this because im a Turk and this fortress was a Ottoman one, you may remember that we allready had a discussions about this a couple months ago, i said to you that i dont like it how these monstrous building are next to Kaaba back then.
At that time i didnt even know that they demolished Ajyad Fortress to built these hotels.

Syr dude but i have to say that they did a really bad job by building these hotels there, they could have solve the problem in a better way by protecting the old buildings.

I really suggest that you take a look at the link I gave to you.

I did it when you posted it the first day, beautyful pictures btw.

 

[al-Hasani]

It was one of the last Ottoman Heritages in Mecca, Ottomans was one of the biggest Islamic empires, it may have no Religious importance but it has a historic importance.


Ajyad Fortress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is from wiki article, do you still think it was a unimportant building?




Actually they didnt really expand Al-Masjid Al-Haram, they just built a huge hotel next to it, i think they could just built hotels away from Kaaba.

Im not wiriting all this because im a Turk and this fortress was a Ottoman one, you may remember that we allready had a discussions about this a couple months ago, i said to you that i dont like it how these monstrous building are next to Kaaba back then.
At that time i didnt even know that they demolished Ajyad Fortress to built these hotels.

Syr dude but i have to say that they did a really bad job by building these hotels there, they could have solve the problem in a better way by protecting the old buildings.


I did it when you posted it the first day, beautyful pictures btw.

Everything has somewhat of a historical importance. I agree with that. But at the end of the day it was just a fortress built 230 years ago or so. Older historical artifacts and actual Islamic heritage sites have been lost as I mentioned from different periods and caliphates.

The expansion project is far from finished and in the middle of being implemented and in the upcoming decades it will only expand because each year a growing number of pilgrims arrive. All the old areas around Al-Masjid Al-Haram have been or will be demolished. They might get rebuilt elsewhere in the future. Nobody knows.

There are probably things that could have been done better. Time will judge that.

Yes, but I mean the posts in that thread that deal with our discussion and the future plans of expanding not only Al-Masjid Al-Haram but also Al-Masjid an-Nabawi in Madinah.

Anyway the discussion should be taken in another thread. You are welcome to dig up that old thread and we can discuss it there instead.

 

[xenon54 out]

Everything has somewhat of a historical importance. I agree with that. But at the end of the day it was just a fortress built 230 years ago or so. Older historical artifacts and actual Islamic heritage sites have been lost as I mentioned from different periods and caliphates.

And thats what im judging, they shouldnt destroy historic sites, a hotel can be built everywhere but these historic sites are gone forever.

The expansion project is far from finished and in the middle of being implemented and in the upcoming decades it will only expand because each year a growing number of pilgrims arrive. All the old areas around Al-Masjid Al-Haram have been or will be destroyed. They might get rebuilt elsewhere in the future. Nobody knows.

Rebuilding what? Whats so historic about these rebuilded sites then?

I have read that also many saudis are againt the destruction of history, they know what the price is, someday KSA will not have any historic buildings left if they continue like that, and then whats left are billion dolar buildings far away from the aesthetics of the old ones.

I just think that the saudi goverment is destroying invaluable history.

Anyways, lets agree on disagree.