Viking 63
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Man, you have smoking crack all weekend Right !!!
Majority of Americans say Afghan war has not been worth fighting
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Khan_patriot
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and to think that I here though that religious and racial bias was present in the East, I cant help but think that your meaning of ''helping'' is bombing, invading, exploiting etc, I can go on and make general assumptions about the Americans etc but I have a higher IQ to resort to this....
Americans are forcing the Middle East/Arabs to sell oil in dollars to make their currency not become a toilet paper, and even after that, they are borrowing money from China, to finance their wars.
Not to mention how they are printing dollars without any regulations......
I guess the Americans desperately want to have a military presence in Middle East to force oil producing countries to sell oil in dollars. This forces the world to trade with USA to get the dollars they need to buy oil. Without US dollar they can not buy oil, and without oil , they do not have the energy to produce anything for themselves.
US Dollar might devalue, if these oil producing countries decide to sell it in any other currency....
Which I doubt the US would let it happen..
Oh no, please help the middle eastern children to become LIBERATED enough to grow up to become homosexuals and pornstars someday, by dropping a bomb over their house and killing their parents! Think about all the gays who want to become pornstars! Their dreams won't come true!
Do Americans really think they are helping Middle East by being there? Middle East is non of USA's concern. They should leave Middle East and mind their own business.
Not to mention how they are printing dollars without any regulations......
I guess the Americans desperately want to have a military presence in Middle East to force oil producing countries to sell oil in dollars. This forces the world to trade with USA to get the dollars they need to buy oil. Without US dollar they can not buy oil, and without oil , they do not have the energy to produce anything for themselves.
US Dollar might devalue, if these oil producing countries decide to sell it in any other currency....
Which I doubt the US would let it happen..
THERE'S MY MAN !! I missed him. We went about that war all wrong. We should have NEVER have tried to drag those people into the 21st century. Armies shouldn't be used to 'nation build'. They're not good at it. Our 'footprint' should have been much smaller. We should have gone in, killed those that needed killing, and there's PLENTY, and left them to wallow in being Afghanistan. Blowing all the American lives and cash that we did was STUPID.
Really ? WOW !! You're smart !!
Oh no, please help the middle eastern children to become LIBERATED enough to grow up to become homosexuals and pornstars someday, by dropping a bomb over their house and killing their parents! Think about all the gays who want to become pornstars! Their dreams won't come true!
Do Americans really think they are helping Middle East by being there? Middle East is non of USA's concern. They should leave Middle East and mind their own business.
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boomslang
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There are MORE than enough homosexuals in the M.E. They don't need our help with that, although I defer to you and your expertise on that subject. You Paks are STILL sore that we found you hiding Bin Laden, aren't you ? Poor fellas'.
I doubt that. US has oil but it barely uses it self because it might run out of it or something. ( I am not talking about shale oil)
US forces the Arab world to sell oil in US dollars. US Dollar = Oil = Energy. If the world wants energy then it has to trade with the US. This forces poorer countries to trade with US to get energy for their own needs. Which they might find difficult. Thus US is not helping the "poor" with this policy. So the "Nobel" Americans aren't helping anyone as they might think, but then again, some Americans might argue the world needs more gay sex than energy. Which is a much urgent issue.
And American gays in the military stationed in M.E are adding more to that? I guess they have plenty of Arab Oil lub to go around there...
And you are still sore because Pakistanis hid Bin Laden for about a decade?
boomslang
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At least your the first Pakistani to admit that you are liars.
That's not you down there in the dark shirt, is it Ranger ?
26 August 2013 Last updated at 19:40 ET
Gay Pakistan: Where sex is available and relationships are difficult
By Mobeen Azhar BBC World Service, Karachi
Pakistan is not the kind of place that most people would associate with gay liberation. But some say the country is a great place to be gay - even describing the port city of Karachi as "a gay man's paradise".
Underground parties, group sex at shrines and "marriages of convenience" to members of the opposite sex are just some of the surprises that gay Pakistan has to offer. Under its veneer of strict social conformity, the country is bustling with same-sex activity.
Danyaal, as he's asked to be known, is a 50-something businessman who lives in an affluent part of Karachi, and uses his smartphone to organise Karachi's gay party scene.
"One of the first things I did online, maybe 12 years ago, was type in G - A - Y and hit search. Back then I found a group and made contact with 12 people in this city," he says.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
After getting married, gay men will treat their wives well but they will continue to have sex with other men”
Qasim Iqbal Researcher
"These days there are smartphone apps that use GPS to tell you how close you are to another gay person with an online profile. There are thousands of gay men online in Pakistan at any one time."
The party scene is big - so big, he jokes, that he rarely gets time to himself.
"If you want sex too, it's a gay man's paradise. If you want a relationship, that may be more difficult."
These invitation-only parties are a rare opportunity for gay men to be open about their sexuality.
Pakistani society is fiercely patriarchal. Pakistanis are expected to marry a member of the opposite sex, and the vast majority do.
Continue reading the main story
Find out more
Hear the full documentary on BBC Radio 4's Crossing Continents, on Thursday, 29 August at 11:00am or on Assignment on the BBC World Service on the same day.
- Listen via the Radio 4 website
- Download the programme
- Explore the best of Crossing Continents
- Listen: The Gay Prince of Rajpipla
"Gay men will make every effort to stop any investment in a same-sex relationship because they know that one day they will have to get married to a woman," he says.
"After getting married they will treat their wives well but they will continue to have sex with other men."
Sex between men occurs in some very public places - including, surprisingly, Karachi's busiest shrine.
Families go to the Abdullah Shah-Ghazi shrine to honour the holy man buried there and to ask for God's blessings, but it is also Karachi's biggest cruising ground.
Every Thursday evening, as the sun sets, men from across the city gather there. A tightly packed circle is formed and those in the centre of the circle are groped by those on the periphery.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
We get important people - police, army officers and ministers too”
Ahmed Masseur
To outsiders it looks like a writhing mass of men huddling around one another. Some even describe it as a "mysterious religious ceremony". For participants, it's anonymous group sex.
This kind of behaviour is, of course, not condoned by Pakistan's religious authorities.
Most Pakistanis view homosexuality as sinful. The vast majority of clerics interpret the Qoranic story of Lot as a clear indication that God condemns homosexual men. Some scholars go even further and recommend Sharia-based punishment for "men who have sex with men".
The shrine is far from the only place in Karachi where gay sex is freely available.
It is, for example, easy to buy from a malchi walah - a masseur who offers massage and "extras" for the equivalent of £5, or $7.80.
"We get important people - police, army officers and ministers too," says one masseur, Ahmed.
He claims to have slept with more than 3,000 men during his working life - despite having two wives and eight children.
One of his wives, Sumera, wears a burka and the niqab, but she has no objection to her husband's chosen profession and wishes more people would keep an open mind.
"I know he has sex. No problem. If he doesn't work how will the kids eat? I get angry when people call them names. People are stuck in their ways."
Sumera's position may appear surprising, but in fact it's not hard to understand, says Qasim Iqbal.
"In Pakistan men are discouraged from having girlfriends and so often, their first sexual experiences will be with male friends or cousins. This is often seen as a part of growing up and it can be overlooked by families - it's the idea that 'boys will be boys'," he says.
"Sex between men will be overlooked as long as no-one feels that tradition or religion are being challenged. At the end of it all, everyone gets married to a member of the opposite sex and nothing is spoken about."
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
At the end of the night Ali's mother goes to her room and Ali and I will retire to our room”
Akbar Ali's partner
Technically, homosexual acts are illegal in Pakistan. The British introduced laws criminalising what is described as sex "against the order of nature" in the colonial era. Sharia-based laws dating from the 1980s also lay down punishments for same-sex sexual activity.
In practice, though, these laws are rarely enforced, and the issue tends to be dealt with inside the family.
"There was an instance where two boys were caught having sex in a field," says Iqbal.
"The family tried to bribe the police with money because they didn't want the story going public. When the police wouldn't back down the family asked for one detail to be changed - they wanted their son to be presented as the active sexual partner. For them, their son being passive would be even more shameful."
In almost all cases charges will be dropped, Iqbal says, but the boys will be forced to get married by their families.
Just occasionally, though, Pakistani parents do reconcile themselves to children entering a long-term gay relationship.
Akbar and Ali are one such couple who have made things work, against the odds.
"Ali's family was run by a matriarch," recalls Akbar.
"His grandmother was the head of the house so I knew that winning her over would mean everything else would fall into place. I took the time to talk to her and convince her that I was a good person. That was first and foremost. It wasn't about 'coming out' in a formal sense. It's more important to convince Ali's family that I'm a good human being.
"She once gave me a hand-embroidered decorative cloth that she had made as a teenager. She said she was giving it to me because she knew I 'take care of things'. It was a kind gesture and a very personal kind of acceptance."
Akbar and Ali have now set up home together with the support of their families. Akbar has a good relationship with Ali's mother.
"She comes to stay with us and I love watching soaps with her. At the end of the night she goes to her room and Ali and I will retire to our room. Two men sleeping in the same bed? Sure she knows what is going on. We don't have to have a big discussion about it."
Stories like this are, however, exceptionally rare. For many gay men in Pakistan, a heterosexual marriage and a life of anonymous groping is the long-term reality.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Akbar Ali's partner
Technically, homosexual acts are illegal in Pakistan. The British introduced laws criminalising what is described as sex "against the order of nature" in the colonial era. Sharia-based laws dating from the 1980s also lay down punishments for same-sex sexual activity.
In practice, though, these laws are rarely enforced, and the issue tends to be dealt with inside the family.
"There was an instance where two boys were caught having sex in a field," says Iqbal.
"The family tried to bribe the police with money because they didn't want the story going public. When the police wouldn't back down the family asked for one detail to be changed - they wanted their son to be presented as the active sexual partner. For them, their son being passive would be even more shameful."
In almost all cases charges will be dropped, Iqbal says, but the boys will be forced to get married by their families.
Just occasionally, though, Pakistani parents do reconcile themselves to children entering a long-term gay relationship.
Akbar and Ali are one such couple who have made things work, against the odds.
"Ali's family was run by a matriarch," recalls Akbar.
"His grandmother was the head of the house so I knew that winning her over would mean everything else would fall into place. I took the time to talk to her and convince her that I was a good person. That was first and foremost. It wasn't about 'coming out' in a formal sense. It's more important to convince Ali's family that I'm a good human being.
"She once gave me a hand-embroidered decorative cloth that she had made as a teenager. She said she was giving it to me because she knew I 'take care of things'. It was a kind gesture and a very personal kind of acceptance."
Akbar and Ali have now set up home together with the support of their families. Akbar has a good relationship with Ali's mother.
"She comes to stay with us and I love watching soaps with her. At the end of the night she goes to her room and Ali and I will retire to our room. Two men sleeping in the same bed? Sure she knows what is going on. We don't have to have a big discussion about it."
Stories like this are, however, exceptionally rare. For many gay men in Pakistan, a heterosexual marriage and a life of anonymous groping is the long-term reality.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
It's selfish for me to come out and campaign for gay rights now - it's selfish to the women in my family who are fighting for education”
Beena Lahore
But life can be even more difficult for gay women. Expressions of female sexuality are shunned in the public sphere, even among heterosexuals. So how do gay women make their lives work?
In Lahore, twenty-something lesbian couple Beena and Fatima have come up with an inventive way to stay together.
Beena, although not publicly "out", says she is optimistic about the future. "I think we'll have a marriage of convenience. I know some gay guys and maybe we'll do a deal so we put in money together and they have one portion of the house and we'll have another portion. We may as well do that."
Fatima, who contributes to an invitation-only online gay support group, believes it's only "a matter of time" before Pakistan begins to debate gay rights openly, and people declare their homosexuality with pride.
"You can't stay in the closet forever. You have to come out. It's inevitable," she says.
Beena is less hopeful.
"Gay rights in America came after women had basic rights. You don't see that in Pakistan. You are not allowed a difference of opinion here. My father is a gentleman but I wouldn't put it past him to put a bullet through my head. I'm all for being 'true to myself' but I don't want to die young," she says.
"I think it's selfish for me to come out and campaign for gay rights now. It's selfish to the women in my family who are fighting for education and the right to marry the man of their dreams, or not to marry at all."
It may take a generation for any real change to occur - even liberal Pakistanis tend to regard sectarian violence and economic instability as more pressing issues. But there will still be private spaces where gay Pakistanis can express their sexuality openly.
Some of the names of the contributors have been changed to protect their identities.
'Group sex at shrines' ? WTF ??!!
Beena Lahore
But life can be even more difficult for gay women. Expressions of female sexuality are shunned in the public sphere, even among heterosexuals. So how do gay women make their lives work?
In Lahore, twenty-something lesbian couple Beena and Fatima have come up with an inventive way to stay together.
Beena, although not publicly "out", says she is optimistic about the future. "I think we'll have a marriage of convenience. I know some gay guys and maybe we'll do a deal so we put in money together and they have one portion of the house and we'll have another portion. We may as well do that."
Fatima, who contributes to an invitation-only online gay support group, believes it's only "a matter of time" before Pakistan begins to debate gay rights openly, and people declare their homosexuality with pride.
"You can't stay in the closet forever. You have to come out. It's inevitable," she says.
Beena is less hopeful.
"Gay rights in America came after women had basic rights. You don't see that in Pakistan. You are not allowed a difference of opinion here. My father is a gentleman but I wouldn't put it past him to put a bullet through my head. I'm all for being 'true to myself' but I don't want to die young," she says.
"I think it's selfish for me to come out and campaign for gay rights now. It's selfish to the women in my family who are fighting for education and the right to marry the man of their dreams, or not to marry at all."
It may take a generation for any real change to occur - even liberal Pakistanis tend to regard sectarian violence and economic instability as more pressing issues. But there will still be private spaces where gay Pakistanis can express their sexuality openly.
Some of the names of the contributors have been changed to protect their identities.
'Group sex at shrines' ? WTF ??!!
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I guess you are a troll. What you said doesn't even make any sense, but then again, I wouldn't expect much from a lady gaga fan.
Pakistan does not have Oil and it barely has enough gas to for its own needs. Thus the Iran-Pakistan Gas-pipeline, to import gas from Iran which the US opposes...
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant and perhaps not very bright either?
Oh yes, the gays! I am not surprised that an American would derail the thread into a homosexual gay sex campaign out of their burning love for gay sex. Americans after all want to "LIBERATE" young boys and girls in the Middle East so they can grow up to be homosexuals and **** stars. To pimp themselves for a living in a **** industry is the freedom Americans enjoy which they want to share with the world.
Especially by sending their world's largest legalized gay army to the middle east. lol. Yes, American army is legally the world's lagest gay Army, Thanks to Obama for homosexualization of US army. Obama can be found lecturing putin on gay sex.. lol
You admitted that Pakistan lied about hiding Bin Laden. Is it THAT hard for you to follow what you yourself writes ? GEEZ !!
I didn't claim anything. I asked you a question.
PS: I think you are an American troll, who apparently tries to derail the thread into a gay sex campaign. lol
boomslang
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Its called sarcasm. You aren't very bright are you? Or just a really bad troll I guess...
boomslang
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You get called on it and now it's 'sarcasm'. Sure. Right.
My God you are dumb... @_@
You know what isn't sarcasm? American military is world's largest legally Gay Military . US Army has been homosexualized. I guess US army want more dildos than guns now. probably made in China ones... lol
boomslang
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HunterKiller
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