"Made in China" vs "Make in India": a Glimpse from Their Auto Industries

[Han Patriot]

The export gap is there. I fully agree with. The good news is the Chinese automobile industry export is growing very rapidly.

The auto exports of China in Q1 to Q3 2017 reaches 623k units, yoy growth 26.3%.
http://www.caam.org.cn/xiehuidongtai/20171012/1505212259.html

汽车出口同比呈现高速增长
　　9月汽车企业出口8.3万辆，比上月增长13%，比上年同期增长38.9%，同比呈现高速增长态势。分车型情况看，当月乘用车出口6.1万辆，比上年同期增长45.5%；商用车出口2.2万辆，比上年同期增长4.2%。
　　1-9月，汽车企业出口62.3万辆，比同期增长26.3%，增速比1-8月提高1.7个百分点。分车型看，乘用车出口43.4万辆，比上年同期增长35.6%；商用车出口18.8辆，比上年同期增长9%。

Regarding the Chinese cars, how about take a read at the article from Mckinsey, the best consulting company on the world.

Mckinsey says:
- Chinese domestic brands as a group increased their share of the passenger-vehicle market to 38 percent in 2016, from 32 percent in 2014, a huge feat when the market itself was undergoing double-digit yearly growth.

- What’s more, they (the Chinese domestic brands) captured this growth from global automakers of nearly every nationality, not from a single segment of weak players.

- The increasing competence of local brands constitutes an urgent warning to Western OEMs.

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries...hts/riding-chinas-huge-high-flying-car-market

Indian car exports are done by foreign companies selling cheap unsafe cars to turd world countries.

oppps... this is 2017, not 1987 or 1997. Why the new car today still have the window up and low be manually-controlled??

BYD F0, ~$5,500 in price, is the lowest-priced Chinese car. But even BYD F0 has the power windows for both front and rear row.
http://www.bydauto.com.cn/car-param-f0.html

Nooooo, India has the cheapest bestest car on earth, how can China compare. Yet they buy 50 bil$ worth of stuff from us when they can produce the cheapest bestest goods.

Now you believe me when I say they are delusional/

 

[MULUBJA]

Don't be fooled by this indian troll. What they have exported are virtually all foreign brand little crappy midget so-called "cars". Their indigenous brand are nothing.. 90% of our exports are from our own brand.. I will add the data.

View attachment 435699
http://chinaautoweb.com/2013/02/top-15-chinese-auto-exporters-in-2012/

View attachment 435700
https://auto.economictimes.indiatim...nd-suvs-exporters-from-india-in-2016/56584637


BTW, indian troll, what the hell do you think auto exports are related to car quality? Prove it. And you haven't answer my inquiry yet, how many "costly" cars are sold in your country?? As BMW, BENZ, AUDI sold 1.6 million here in China. Our people are so thirsty to buy cars including the most luxury ones, why should we export? Be logic, think about it!

Now the problem with Chinese trolls is that when the cars are exported from India, thy will say that they are foreign companies. Now when TATA exports Land rovers and Jaguar, they will say that it is exported from outside india. They will choose whatever is convenient to them at that point of time. Now tell me whatever is exported

Now Maruti has grown bigger than suziki two time is size and they are doing all designs and development in India. Infact Indian developed technology is exported to Japan and US. Chinese car manufacturers list shows all multinationals on top . It is very surprising that inspite of having so many car manufacturers, CHina has very poor export of cars from china. May be because the workers are chinese who do not believe in quality. Even such multinationals in spite of having such big manufacturing in china are unable to export cars from china while the same manufacturers exports cars from India, they are unable export the cars from CHina.

2016 passenger car sales by brand
Rank Brand Manufacturers Sales in 2016
1 Volkswagen FAW, Shanghai 3.006.215
2 Buick Shanghai GM 1.229.804
3 Honda GAC, Dongfeng 1.196.664
4 Changan Changan 1.149.820
5 Hyundai Beijing 1.142.016
6 Toyota FAW, GAC 1.064.704
7 Nissan Dongfeng, Zhengzhou 1.015.605
8 Ford Changan 951.396
9 Haval Great Wall 938.019
10 Geely Geely 778.896
11 Baojun SAIC-GM-Wuling 760.292
12 BAIC BAIC 711.246
13 Dongfeng Dongfeng 680.617
14 Wuling SAIC-GM-Wuling 667.629
15 Kia Dongfeng Yueda 650.001
16 Chevrolet Shanghai 538.671
17 Audi FAW 536.289
18 Chery Chery 505.452
19 BYD BYD 494.116
20 GAC GAC 371.006

 

[TaiShang]

Even such multinationals in spite of having such big manufacturing in china are unable to export cars from china while the same manufacturers exports cars from India

In China, domestic makers control about 45% of the market. It is growing, but still far from satisfactory. I want a 75% share. But, the rest of the market is shared by joint ventures: either 50-50 or Chinese majority. A foreign company cannot have total ownership in China. They need to share technology and patents.

Thus, in China, foreign manufacturers can only produce cars through joint ventures. Hence, their productions are mostly tailored for home market. China's market is so big, almost twice that of the US. Perhaps nearly eight times that of India.

In India, they come, they build, and they make cars. Nothing much to share. That's why China auto sector is better positioned to go global. They are learning from the best (dominant) in the business: The Japanese, Germany, and the US.

By the way, for India's indigenous exports, your manufacturers still source more than 20% of spare parts from China.

Where is innovation? Where is the chance to go overseas and be competitive? How could one possibly be so optimist?

China definitely has miles to go (less than a decade, I believe) to achieve parity. But India is not only left behind so badly, but also offers no hope for future. You will never be a player in global auto market.

You are stuck with either foreign makes with complete ownership, or with sub-par Indian-quality makes that rely on foreign contractors for basic components (while most of them lack the standard safety features).

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

In China, domestic makers control about 45% of the market. It is growing, but still far from satisfactory. I want a 75% share. But, the rest of the market is shared by joint ventures: either 50-50 or Chinese majority. A foreign company cannot have total ownership in China. They need to share technology and patents.

Thus, in China, foreign manufacturers can only produce cars through joint ventures. Hence, their productions are mostly tailored for home market. China's market is so big, almost twice that of the US. Perhaps nearly eight times that of India.

In India, they come, they build, and they make cars. Nothing much to share. That's why China auto sector is better positioned to go global. They are learning from the best (dominant) in the business: The Japanese, Germany, and the US.

By the way, for India's indigenous exports, your manufacturers still source more than 20% of spare parts from China.

Where is innovation? Where is the chance to go overseas and be competitive.

China definitely has miles to go (a decade, I believe) to achieve parity. But India is not only left behind so badly, but also offers no hope for future.

You are stuck with either foreign makes with complete ownership, or with sub-par Indian quality junks that rely on foreign contractors for basic components (while most of them lack the standard safety technologies).

My Friend,

Rather pointless discussion really. Two different planets, two different Dialectics... China and India have nothing in common apart from population size.

This is not to put our Indian friends down. They are as human as I am. They have good things unique to them.

I rather have a dicussion, a discourse about how China established the industrial base and how systematically, relatively quickly, China is climbing the Value Chain... now about to enter massive Innovation lead products and services globally.

When I have time I shall do a write up on this and put it here on PDF.

Each and everything has its fundamental nature, its Ethos.

This also goes for people, nations and states. This the Way. The Rise of Great and the Rise of Small are but the conitnuation of the Eternal Tao.

Just look at I Ching.... it is not an Oracle... all we need to know is encoded in that Master Piece of Wisdom...and just like the Art of War... I Ching is but one application of the Way.

China is truly a blessed state with such eternal heritage and wisdom.

My Chinese freinds must show compassion and understanding towards our Indian friends... and refrain from comparisons...

But you know that already!

Have wonderful day.

Regards,

Mangus

 

[MULUBJA]

In China, domestic makers control about 45% of the market. It is growing, but still far from satisfactory. I want a 75% share. But, the rest of the market is shared by joint ventures: either 50-50 or Chinese majority. A foreign company cannot have total ownership in China. They need to share technology and patents.

Thus, in China, foreign manufacturers can only produce cars through joint ventures. Hence, their productions are mostly tailored for home market. China's market is so big, almost twice that of the US. Perhaps nearly eight times that of India.

In India, they come, they build, and they make cars. Nothing much to share. That's why China auto sector is better positioned to go global. They are learning from the best (dominant) in the business: The Japanese, Germany, and the US.

By the way, for India's indigenous exports, your manufacturers still source more than 20% of spare parts from China.

Where is innovation? Where is the chance to go overseas and be competitive? How could one possibly be so optimist?

China definitely has miles to go (less than a decade, I believe) to achieve parity. But India is not only left behind so badly, but also offers no hope for future. You will never be a player in global auto market.

You are stuck with either foreign makes with complete ownership, or with sub-par Indian-quality makes that rely on foreign contractors for basic components (while most of them lack the standard safety features).

You did not give me a simple answer. Inspite of higher car production than US, why are you unable to do any export. Why your export is even lesser than that of India.

The biggest surprise of china is that inspite of presence of so many multinationals in china, None of the company is able to make china as their export hub and able to export their cars from china. Even robust quality control mechanism of Multinationals is unable to make chinese car export worthy.

 

[TaiShang]

My Friend,

Rather pointless discussion really. Two different planets, two different Dialectics... China and India have nothing in common apart from population size.

This is not to put our Indian friends down. They are as human as I am. They have good things unique to them.

I rather have a dicussion, a discourse about how China established the industrial base and how systematically, relatively quickly, China is climbing the Value Chain... now about to enter massive Innovation lead products and services globally.

When I have time I shall do a write up on this and put it here on PDF.

Each and everything has its fundamental nature, its Ethos.

This also goes for people, nations and states. This the Way. The Rise of Great and the Rise of Small are but the conitnuation of the Eternal Tao.

Just look at I Ching.... it is not an Oracle... all we need to know is encoded in that Master Piece of Wisdom...and just like the Art of War... I Ching is but one application of the Way.

China is truly a blessed state with such eternal heritage and wisdom.

My Chinese freinds must show compassion and understanding towards our Indian friends... and refrain from comparisons...

But you know that already!

Have wonderful day.

Regards,

Mangus

Thank you, my friend, for deep and thoughtful response. In fact I did not participate up until today because I also thought it would be pointless because we are talking about two different dialectics. It seems, although the world has a history, each culture/nation area also has their own histories, hence, comparison may not produce any value because the differences are so big and there is no vantage point we can make a comparative analysis.

You did not give me a simple answer. Inspite of higher car production than US, why are you unable to do any export. Why your export is even lesser than that of India.

My understanding:

1. China's market is big, hence domestic makers are comfortable and profitable. They take time to consolidate home market share. It is not the 1990s anymore, China cannot only compete on price advantage. Of course, having one of the best logistics and manufacturing value chain in the world (and now with robotics), China will always have price advantage, but, for the high shots at the top of the companies, it is not enough anymore.

2. One step at a time. Before venturing out, the technology and quality must mature. Because, once the image is tarnished, difficult to build one anew. Major producers like BYD, Changan, Great Wall, SAIC, FAW etc. are currently building up patents, indigenous technologies, strong line-ups to meet demand for every segments.

It is just not the right time to aggressively push for expansion.

3. The ultimate target is mature Western markets.

4. The ongoing EV transition. China wants to act on its strength, which would be EV and autonomous-smart drive. Hence we have, for instance, Baidu Auto, whcih provides vehicle software and autonomous driving technologies. China plans to capture larger share in the new energy vehicle segment. In fact, for example, Changan plans to end all conventional engine car production by 2025.

The biggest surprise of china is that inspite of presence of so many multinationals in china

They are JVs, not necessarily multinationals with complete independent decision making capacity. They have to comply with their partner and the partner's government's policies.

Also, for those multinationals, too, having a decent market share in China is more important than capturing markets in third world countries.

 

[MULUBJA]

1. China's market is big, hence domestic makers are comfortable and profitable. They take time to consolidate home market share. It is not the 1990s anymore, China cannot only compete on price advantage. Of course, having one of the best logistics and manufacturing value chain in the world (and now with robotics), China will always have price advantage, but, for the high shots at the top of the companies, it is not enough anymore.

Why this does not apply in case of other products?

2. One step at a time. Before venturing out, the technology and quality must mature. Because, once the image is tarnished, difficult to build one anew. Major producers like BYD, Changan, Great Wall, SAIC, FAW etc. are currently building up patents, indigenous technologies, strong line-ups to meet demand for every segments.

Thank you for accepting that chinese quality is not at par yet. and hence it is not exportable.

The ongoing EV transition. China wants to act on its strength, which would be EV and autonomous-smart drive. Hence we have, for instance, Baidu Auto, whcih provides vehicle software and autonomous driving technologies. China plans to capture larger share in the new energy vehicle segment. In fact, for example, Changan plans to end all conventional engine car production by 2025.

Than why so many traditional cars are produced in CHina?

They are JVs, not necessarily multinationals with complete independent decision making capacity. They have to comply with their partner and the partner's government's policies.

Also, for those multinationals, too, having a decent market share in China is more important than capturing markets in third world countries.

This means that If even multinationals makes JV with chinese firms, their product becomes non exportable because of chinese involvement. And that is what I want to say. We agree here.

 

[TaiShang]

Why this does not apply in case of other products?

Perhaps because automobile industry is a very big and major one. It is also more challenging to put out a strong car brand than, say, a smartphone brand.

Thank you for accepting that chinese quality is not at par yet. and hence it is not exportable.

Of course. There are many others that make good quality cars, have brand recognition and reputation, and accumulated knowledge pool/patent. China domestic car quality is not good enough to satisfy the manufacturers ambitions.

So, most of them are taking the cautious road, building brand and quality image slowly.

Than why so many traditional cars are produced in CHina?

Because EV requires a complete new ecosystem and even a different set of regulations. Everything has to be reconfigured. China is the largest EV producer and market. But, for many years to come, conventional engine will continue to dominate. Also, the rest of the world won't be easily catching up with the ongoing EV transition.

This means that If even multinationals makes JV with chinese firms, their product becomes non exportable because of chinese involvement. And that is what I want to say. We agree here.

I do not know. We have to ask the CEO or the board of executives on their decision to export or not to export.

 

[MULUBJA]

Of course. There are many others that make good quality cars, have brand recognition and reputation, and accumulated knowledge pool/patent. China domestic car quality is not good enough to satisfy the manufacturers ambitions.

So, most of them are taking the cautious road, building brand and quality image slowly.

This is a great admission I see very rare from any chinese. You deserve complement for that.

 

[empirefighter]

This is a great admission I see very rare from any chinese. You deserve complement for that.

Before your praise, I think you should know what TaiShang exactly meant: the quality of our tradictional cars is still behind the Germany/American/Japan, and we admitted it. In fact ,we are catching up very quickly. BUT, our quality is FAR FAR better than India, and you should admit this reality.

 

[Kai Liu]

Now the problem with Chinese trolls is that when the cars are exported from India, thy will say that they are foreign companies. Now when TATA exports Land rovers and Jaguar, they will say that it is exported from outside india. They will choose whatever is convenient to them at that point of time. Now tell me whatever is exported

Now Maruti has grown bigger than suziki two time is size and they are doing all designs and development in India. Infact Indian developed technology is exported to Japan and US. Chinese car manufacturers list shows all multinationals on top . It is very surprising that inspite of having so many car manufacturers, CHina has very poor export of cars from china. May be because the workers are chinese who do not believe in quality. Even such multinationals in spite of having such big manufacturing in china are unable to export cars from china while the same manufacturers exports cars from India, they are unable export the cars from CHina.

2016 passenger car sales by brand
Rank Brand Manufacturers Sales in 2016
1 Volkswagen FAW, Shanghai 3.006.215
2 Buick Shanghai GM 1.229.804
3 Honda GAC, Dongfeng 1.196.664
4 Changan Changan 1.149.820
5 Hyundai Beijing 1.142.016
6 Toyota FAW, GAC 1.064.704
7 Nissan Dongfeng, Zhengzhou 1.015.605
8 Ford Changan 951.396
9 Haval Great Wall 938.019
10 Geely Geely 778.896
11 Baojun SAIC-GM-Wuling 760.292
12 BAIC BAIC 711.246
13 Dongfeng Dongfeng 680.617
14 Wuling SAIC-GM-Wuling 667.629
15 Kia Dongfeng Yueda 650.001
16 Chevrolet Shanghai 538.671
17 Audi FAW 536.289
18 Chery Chery 505.452
19 BYD BYD 494.116
20 GAC GAC 371.006

A rather pale argument!
Firstly, you can count how many Chinese brands are in your list, and how many cars they sold, then compare them to your domestic brands' sales figures..
Secondly, you still have not given any proof about your theory: the number of foreign brand cars assembled and exported are related to the quality of cars (For example: Mexico export far more cars than France and Italy, so according to your logic, Mexico produce better cars than France and Italy, right?)
Thirdly, doing some R&D for some low-end product of a foreign company is not something to show off. SAIC are far far larger than your maruti, it ranks 41st in Fortune 500 world's largest companies. It also does a lot of R&D with GM and VW, its developed technology have been exported to USA as well; It also has its own brands, but we don't see any "Maruti" brand cars with a Maruti logo..
Fourthly, we don't count Volvo as a Chinese company, same as your Land rover.
and Lastly, you still have to give me the number of "costly' cars sold in your country as you claimed it will be a lot...

 

[Han Patriot]

JLR are not made in India, if they were made in India, nobody would buy them. There is only a CKD plant for the Indian market. Funny the only engine plant outside of UK is in China.

India exports cars assembled from foreign CKDs by foreign companies to turd world countries, China exports mostly local brands to turd world countries. Until recently, joint ventures in China had special clauses that only allow them to sell to the domestic market for fear of Chinese competition since JVs are mostly Chinese controlled due to state law. Most Car exporters in India are mostly controlled by foreigners and hence they do not fear competition.
Due to the huge CHinese markets, the local JVs had been concentrating on the domestic market but things are changing now, it was only this year BMW was allowed by CHinese government to export cars.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170531/COPY01/305319974/bmw-wins-license-to-export-from-china

BMW Group has been granted a license by Chinese authorities to export vehicles manufactured by its local joint venture BMW Brilliance, opening up the possibility of China-built BMWs being sold to customers in Europe or the U.S.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/02/gm-is-producing-popular-car-in-china-exporting-to-us/

China’s hottest auto export to the US is a Buick, and that may not sit well with the Trump administration.

General Motors produces the Buick Envision exclusively at a factory in Shanghai, mainly for the Chinese market. About 32,000 of the vehicles, which sell at a base price of $34,065, have been sold in the US since the company introduced the compact SUV to the US market last summer.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/21/business/ford-china-export-focus-mexico.html

Ford Motor’s plans to build its popular Focus compact cars in China, rather than Michigan or Mexico, is a milestone in China’s automotive rise. Chinese auto industry leaders praised the move as long-awaited confirmation that the country’s factories have become as efficient and high-quality as those in the United States and Europe.

 

[Kai Liu]

These cars india has none to match the CP value, if you do, welcome to post:

Changan A800 7 seater MPV.
Start from 9,061 USD, ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features.

BYD SONG MAX 7 seater MPV.
1.5L turbo charged engine (154ps, 240Nm), start from 12,069 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features.

Chery Tiggo 5x SUV.
1.5L turbo charged engine (147ps, 210Nm), start from 12,069 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features, independent rear suspension.

To be Con't




These cars india has none to match the CP value, if you do, welcome to post:
Con't

Chery Arrizo 5
start from 8,897 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features.

BAIC Bisu T5 7-seat suv
4715*1870*1780 in dimension, 1.5L turbo charged engine (150ps, 215Nm, start from 11,012 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features

Zotye T300
start from 8,580 USD; ABS, airbags as standard features

 

[Han Patriot]

These cars india has none to match the CP value, if you do, welcome to post:

Changan A800 7 seater MPV.
Start from 9,061 USD, ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features.

BYD SONG MAX 7 seater MPV.
1.5L turbo charged engine (154ps, 240Nm), start from 12,069 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features.

Chery Tiggo 5x SUV.
1.5L turbo charged engine (147ps, 210Nm), start from 12,069 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features, independent rear suspension.

To be Con't




These cars india has none to match the CP value, if you do, welcome to post:
Con't

Chery Arrizo 5
start from 8,897 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features.

BAIC Bisu T5 7-seat suv
4715*1870*1780 in dimension, 1.5L turbo charged engine (150ps, 215Nm, start from 11,012 USD; ABS, ESP, airbags as standard features

Zotye T300
start from 8,580 USD; ABS, airbags as standard features

I told you, if they open up the Indian market, their car market would be dominated by Chinese. These people are price sensitive but they also want features.

 

[MULUBJA]

Before your praise, I think you should know what TaiShang exactly meant: the quality of our tradictional cars is still behind the Germany/American/Japan, and we admitted it. In fact ,we are catching up very quickly. BUT, our quality is FAR FAR better than India, and you should admit this reality. But if not, I can understand that because you are an Indian.

What our quality is is eveident from the fact that we export cars to UK, US, Japan and whole Europe. Inspite of very low car production compared to China, We export lot more cars than you people and it is all set to take a huge jump in days to come. Now you can praise your cars as much you can. You always do that so it is immaterial what you say. What is important is how world perceive it. Your maal is perceived as substandard and nobody would like to put their money stuff like car.

A rather pale argument!
Firstly, you can count how many Chinese brands are in your list, and how many cars they sold, then compare them to your domestic brands' sales figures..
Secondly, you still have not given any proof about your theory: the number of foreign brand cars assembled and exported are related to the quality of cars (For example: Mexico export far more cars than France and Italy, so according to your logic, Mexico produce better cars than France and Italy, right?)
Thirdly, doing some R&D for some low-end product of a foreign company is not something to show off. SAIC are far far larger than your maruti, it ranks 41st in Fortune 500 world's largest companies. It also does a lot of R&D with GM and VW, its developed technology have been exported to USA as well; It also has its own brands, but we don't see any "Maruti" brand cars with a Maruti logo..
Fourthly, we don't count Volvo as a Chinese company, same as your Land rover.
and Lastly, you still have to give me the number of "costly' cars sold in your country as you claimed it will be a lot...

When cars are exported to UK, Japan and US, there is no need to say that those cars meet all technological parameters such as emission, safety standard and other attribute. So your argument falls flat when you say that export is not a testimony to quality than it is nothing but the face saving of poor chinese quality.

We too do not count Land rover and Jaguar as our car as the ownership is ours but it is manufactured in UK. It is your chinese who argue that cars exported from India is multinational brand so I gave an counter example.

So far as R & D is concern, India has emerged as R & D and development hub in IT and it is happening in other sectors as well.