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Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

With expose like this coming out just before elections in Pakistan (to defame Musharraf - righly so though) can only come with the blessing from Army. Looks like Kayani doesn't want Musharraf back in Pakistan. I am expecting more skeletons coming out in the run up to the elections.
 
Lieutenant General Shahid Aziz is a
retired Pakistan Army general who
served as the commander of the IV
Corps (Lahore) from December 2003 to
October 2005. After retiring from the
army, he was appointed Chairman of the
National Accountability Bureau, a post
he left in May 2007.
His illustrious military career has placed
him in pivotal posts during critical
periods in Pakistan over the last
decade. In 1998, he found himself
involved in Pakistan’s nuclear tests as
Director of Military Operations. During
the Kargil conflict of 1999, he served as
DG of the ISI’s Analysis Wing. That
same year, he was appointed to the role
of DG Military Operations where he
played a crucial role in the counter-coup
that brought President Musharraf to
power
. After the events of 9/11, he was
serving as Chief of General Staff at GHQ
when the US deployed its forces to
Afghanistan. He finally retired from the
army in 2005 after having held the post
of Lahore Corps Commander for two
years.
Gen. Aziz is married and proud father
and grandfather to four children and four
grandchildren. He resides in Islamab.

Lt. Gen. Shahid Aziz | The Insider Brief

It was Gen. Aziz who Musharraf spoke to from China which was later leaked to US(presumably by China). Most likely China was
concerned that the attack may escalate to full blown war between two nuclear armed nations.
 
It was Gen. Aziz who Musharraf spoke to from China which was later leaked to US(presumably by China). Most likely China was
concerned that the attack may escalate to full blown war between two nuclear armed nations.

Different Gen.Aziz, that was Chief of General Staff Lt GenMohammad Aziz Khan.
 
Different Gen.Aziz, that was Chief of General Staff Lt GenMohammad Aziz Khan.

@Bang Galore,
That is correct.
Lt Gen Mohd Aziz was then the CGS and one of the Cabal of 4 PA officers who mid-wifed and executed the disastrous Kargil Plan.

Here is what Brig Shaukat Kadir says about him:
"Lt Gen Muhammed Aziz (then CGS): More than anyone else, he has been painted the villain, and the “fundo”, which he is not. Deeply religious, but very balanced, he is born Kashmiri, and has served in some of the most rugged reaches of it, at various stages of his career. Strongly patriotic and deeply committed to the cause of Kashmir, but not to the extent that it might jeopardize Pakistan. He is intelligent, sharp, very balanced, progressive and dynamic."

Then here is another view of Lt Gen Mohd Aziz, by Hassan Abbas:
"The third and final operational plan for Kargil was put forward by its inspirational father, Lieutenant General Mohammad Aziz Khan, chief of the general staff (CGS). Himself a Kashmiri, he was fully committed to the cause of Kashmiri freedom, and not the sort of man who held any commitment lightly. He is very religious and not known to be a hypocrite".

The other 3 members of the Gang of Four were: Gen Musharraff, COAS; Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, GOC 10 Corps; Maj Gen Javed Hassan, Commander FCNA.
 
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@Bang Galore,
That is correct.
Lt Gen Mohd Aziz was then the CGS and one of the Cabal of 4 PA officers who mid-wifed and executed the disastrous Kargil Plan.

Here is what Brig Shaukat Kadir says about him:
"Lt Gen Muhammed Aziz (then CGS): More than anyone else, he has been painted the villain, and the “fundo”, which he is not. Deeply religious, but very balanced, he is born Kashmiri, and has served in some of the most rugged reaches of it, at various stages of his career. Strongly patriotic and deeply committed to the cause of Kashmir, but not to the extent that it might jeopardize Pakistan. He is intelligent, sharp, very balanced, progressive and dynamic."

Then here is another view of Lt Gen Mohd Aziz, by Hassan Abbas:
"The third and final operational plan for Kargil was put forward by its inspirational father, Lieutenant General Mohammad Aziz Khan, chief of the general staff (CGS). Himself a Kashmiri, he was fully committed to the cause of Kashmiri freedom, and not the sort of man who held any commitment lightly. He is very religious and not known to be a hypocrite".

The other 3 members of the Gang of Four were: Gen Musharraff, COAS; Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, GOC 10 Corps; Maj Gen Javed Hassan, Commander FCNA.

Other than Gen. Musharraf has anyone of the gang of 4 revealed the details of the operation. We keep hearing Musharraf version that the attack was started by Mujaheddin and later the army joined them.

Now that Lt. Gen. Shahid Aziz has revealed that it was all army operation, what are the chances that Mr. Musharraf will back down from his version of the events.... will definitely put a damper on his chances in the election.
 
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Other than Gen. Musharraf has anyone of the gang of 4 revealed the details of the operation. We keep hearing Musharraf version that the attack was started by Mujaheddin and later the army joined them.

Now that Lt. Gen. Shahid Aziz has revealed that it was all army operation, what are the chances that Mr. Musharraf will back down from his version of the events.... will definitely put a damper on his chances in the election.

That is hard to say, really. I feel that none of the others will open their mouths, considering their complicity in the misadventure. Contrary to what is claimed, not all of the Pakistani Military Estt. esp the non-PA elements saw or sees that operation in a good light. There was definitely a bad-blood among the Pak Mily. Estt. created due to the way that Op was conceived and executed.

About Election prospects of Musharraff: he has been threatening to come back to Pakistan for quite some time now and even dates of return were declared on numerous occasions. But it has not happened yet. Whether it is because Musharraff has not yet found a "cut-price excursion fare" yet or because he is still persona non grata is the question.

Which elements of the Pakistani Political establishment will welcome him back; Zardari, the Sharif Brothers, ANP, MQM? Maybe just the PTI? What about Gen Kiyani welcoming his return? He is still an important factor in Pakistan.

So, the point is: Musharraff has to return first in order to have any meaningful chance to become a worth-while part of the power-play.
 
That is hard to say, really. I feel that none of the others will open their mouths, considering their complicity in the misadventure. Contrary to what is claimed, not all of the Pakistani Military Estt. esp the non-PA elements saw or sees that operation in a good light. There was definitely a bad-blood among the Pak Mily. Estt. created due to the way that Op was conceived and executed.

About Election prospects of Musharraff: he has been threatening to come back to Pakistan for quite some time now and even dates of return were declared on numerous occasions. But it has not happened yet. Whether it is because Musharraff has not yet found a "cut-price excursion fare" yet or because he is still persona non grata is the question.

Which elements of the Pakistani Political establishment will welcome him back; Zardari, the Sharif Brothers, ANP, MQM? Maybe just the PTI? What about Gen Kiyani welcoming his return? He is still an important factor in Pakistan.

So, the point is: Musharraff has to return first in order to have any meaningful chance to become a worth-while part of the power-play.

Mr. Kiyani would provide cover in terms of extra protection for Mr.Musharraf if he were to return to Pakistan. That would amount to undue advantage afforded to Mr. Musharraf over other candidates in the past. But who is to question the motive of Mr.Kiyani?? This lame duck govt. of Mr. Zardari is treading unknown territory by completing full term for the first time in Pakistan history.
 
Well this will be used for our benefit. We can put it as important reference point every time there is border problem to say that Pakistan Army and establishment lied then, and is lying now.

Using it as counter argument will put people who counter blame us on back foot.
 
Well this will be used for our benefit. We can put it as important reference point every time there is border problem to say that Pakistan Army and establishment lied then, and is lying now.

Using it as counter argument will put people who counter blame us on back foot.

That is not new. It has already happened.
The Americans, Russians, Chinese, French and anybody else you can think of had not bought the PA and GoP line then. All of them simply counselled Pakistan to back down. Coming from the Chinese that was a big shock for Musharraff. It actually happened to him when he was in Beijing (when that infamous set of conversations between him and his CGS was tapped). That certainly broke down his resolve and as Strobe Talbot says he then egged Nawaz Sharif to go to Washington and try parleys. Of course Nawaz Sharif and Musharraff have been continuously squabbling about this point since then. Understandably so!
 
Kargil adventure was four-man show: general | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

ISLAMABAD: The men who witnessed the Kargil fiasco continue to spill the beans. Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘misadventure’ was a four-man show the details of which were hidden from the rest of the military commanders initially.

This is the first time someone this senior in the military hierarchy of the time has spoken in such detail and with such frankness about the fiasco that was Kargil.

According to him, initially the Kargil operation was known only to Gen Pervez Musharraf, chief of general staff Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz, FCNA (Force Command Northern Areas) commander Lt Gen Javed Hassan and 10-Corps commander Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad.

The majority of corps commanders and principal staff officers were kept in the dark, says Gen Aziz. “Even the-then director general military operations (DGMO) Lt Gen Tauqir Zia came to know about it later,” says Gen Aziz who at the time was serving as director general of the analysis wing of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

He said that Gen Musharraf worked on a policy of “need to know” throughout his tenure as COAS and later president — in other words, Musharraf would issue orders to only those who were required to implement orders instead of first consulting corps commanders and other military officers.

The Kargil operation began in the summer of 1999 when Pakistani soldiers infiltrated into positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control.

The infiltration, which managed to cut off Indian supply lines, took New Delhi by surprise.

Initially, Islamabad claimed that the infiltrators were mujahideen but it could not maintain this façade for long. The Indian response coupled with international pressure forced the Pakistan military to withdraw.

However, the aftermath of the operation served to heighten tensions between Gen Musharraf and then prime minister Nawaz Sharif which culminated in the October coup when the military removed the elected government and took over.

‘Operation was never planned’

“The Pakistan Army did not plan the operation because Gen Musharraf never saw Kargil as a major operation. Only the FCNA was involved in it and perhaps a section of 10-Corps,” says Aziz, adding that it was a major intelligence failure for India. More details of the operation are expected in Gen Aziz’s book which is hitting the bookshelves next week. [This book will be fun :)

“It was a miscalculated move,” he says when asked about the operation, adding that “its objectives were not clear and its ramifications were not properly evaluated”.

At his picturesque farmhouse in Pind Begwal in the foothills of Murree, about 30km from the capital, Gen Aziz was not averse to speaking frankly about the operation.

“It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives.”

He said he was personally not aware of what information had been shared with then prime minister Nawaz Sharif, but he felt that Mr Sharif “was not fully in the picture”.

He, however, recalls a general telling him that Nawaz Sharif asked “when are you giving us Kashmir?” during an informal discussion. This suggests, says Gen Aziz, that Mr Sharif was not completely in the dark.

Gen Aziz himself first discovered that something was up when he came across wireless communication intercepts from which he could tell that something was making the Indian forces panic.

“The intercepts worried me as I thought we were not aware of whatever was unsettling the Indians. I deputed two officers to figure out what was happening.” The next day’s wireless intercepts were clear enough for Gen Aziz to realise that the Indians’ anxiety stemmed from the fact that someone from Pakistan had captured some areas in Kargil-Drass sector but it was not clear if they were mujahideen or regular troops. “I took these intercepts to then ISI director general Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt and asked what was happening.”

It was then that Gen Aziz was finally told by Gen Butt that the army had captured some area in Kargil.

This, says Gen Aziz, was not right. In his opinion, he should have been told about the proposed operation in advance so that he could have provided his analysis in advance.

A day after this conversation between Aziz and Butt, the latter called Gen Aziz and told him that he had been invited to the General Headquarters for a briefing on Kargil.

The briefing

During the briefing, which was also attended by all the principal staff officers, Director General Military Operations Lt Gen Tauqir Zia explained that units of NLI (Northern Light Infantry) and regular troops had captured areas in the Drass-Kargil sector.

Aziz feels that even though the briefing was conducted by DGMO Tauqir Zia, it was clear that he had not been aware of the operation from the beginning.

The day after the DGMO briefing, the friction at Kargil operation was reported in the Pakistani media; interestingly, the Indian media had carried stories a day earlier.

This shows that the military leadership was informed about such a critical operation only after it began and by that time information was trickling down to the media.

At the briefing, Gen Zia did explain the ‘objectives’ of the operation — it had cut off India’s supply lines to Siachen because of the closure of Zojila Pass on Srinagar-Drass-Kargil-Leh road.

This, said Gen Zia, would block India from supplying its troops in Siachen and subsequently, India would evacuate Siachen. That this did not happen is now history.

Gen Aziz says this was because the planners “miscalculated the Indian response and overall repercussions”.

At the briefing, Gen Tauqir Zia talked about airing pre-recorded Pashto messages that he hoped would be intercepted by the Indian forces.
His objective was that these intercepts would fool India into thinking that the Afghan mujahideen had occupied areas in Kargil.

Gen Aziz says he objected to this plan as “these would get exposed very shortly”. He adds that this led to lengthy discussions and finally Tauqir Zia conceded that the truth could not be hidden for long.

In retrospect, Gen Aziz feels that “even if only NLI men were up there, it would be wrong to suggest that the operation was carried out by paramilitary forces because NLI falls under the military chain of command unlike the Rangers that are headed by a military officer but technically they fall under the control of the ministry of interior”.

The study that never was

But for Gen Aziz the end of the operation did not mean the end of the matter.

After he was promoted as chief of general staff, he says that in 2004 he ordered a small study to inquire into what miscalculations had led to
such a huge loss of men and money. He also asked each battalion concerned for details.

But the reaction was swift.

An angry Gen Musharraf called him and asked what the objectives of the study were. “I told him it would provide a professional understanding of our mistakes and losses but Gen Musharraf insisted that this was not the time for such a study and ordered that it be stopped.
 
Watch this, Indians can feel little mirchi

 
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So all this bull Sh*t because his book is coming out, nice way to start popularity with lies. I don’t know why this Kargil topic keeps coming up & I know Indians will not admit any thing.

I had spoken to those who were involved in Kargil war, they say they were winning the war & they had pushed Indian Army way back, two of Indian Air force Migs were also shoot down who had entered in Pakistani Air space. The Kargil was going a success for Pakistan until this kuta Nawaz went to US & GOD knows how much money he accepted to keep his mouth shut & loose the table talks, it was because of this cowardly move Pakistan Army had suffered heavily & it was during the withdrawal.

All Indians should know this that it was your Govt. who went crying to the US & begged them, this is a clear proof that India was losing Kargil war & they stood no chance against Pak Army & the Mujhaideans. Even India media at that time started pointing fingers at Indian army & their Military equipments (I remember this well).

Gen. Musharraf wanted to meet kuta Nawaz before his departure to US but kuta Nawaz did not meet Gen. Musharraf & he left. Most of my sources say he left early without informing most of the people. This was all planned & US had ordered him to come as soon as he can. Kuta Nawaz didn’t go to US to defend Pakistan, he went there to keep his mouth shut, surrender & accept money.

This article is a complete bull sh*t, promoting only lies & showing the corrupt as heroes.

These gang of four are responsible for lost of many young pakistani soldiers.......

Here we go, the supporters of lies have come out & they will just keep coming.
 
Anything that does not suit the psyche of the poster is wrong.
 

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