LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata

[PARIKRAMA]

In this whole scenario you have considered the barak 8 speed to be 2 mach and radar at 250 km........which is also a deciding factor in distance of engagement from ship

If you have time considering speed of Barak 8 and rader at higher post the result here

Sure,
Based on what you ask I am assuming :LO detection at 250km (previously 150km) and due to higher mast, Sea skimming detection at 60 km (previously 40km)

So now it looks like this below

The longer range of detection for LO hostile aircraft creates a case for Extended Range need sureshot. The Barak 8 standard version will not be able to meet the systems early detection benefits as system is more advanced. One thing is such a detection does provide us a much bigger window of communication and taking the final authorization to shoot down to missile launch for intercept. (presently its 60 secs in my assumption but i feel we can get it to comfortable 90-100 seconds window a almost 50+% increase in decision making and communication of trespass and path change for incoming hostile)

The detection of sea skimming at 60 km gives us a comfort for firing double salvo for Barak 8 speeds greater than Mach 2 engaging hostile missiles with Speed greater than Mach 3. This provides us with an additional protection in case the first Barak 8 is not able to hit the incoming missile and the second launch can engage to intercept.

 

[#hydra#]

Hope in future IN will try this against harppoon & exocet missile. Both are used by India & Pakistan I think. Hence we should test it against these two missiles.

 

[ni8mare]

Sure,
Based on what you ask I am assuming :LO detection at 250km (previously 150km) and due to higher mast, Sea skimming detection at 60 km (previously 40km)

So now it looks like this below
View attachment 283750

The longer range of detection for LO hostile aircraft creates a case for Extended Range need sureshot. The Barak 8 standard version will not be able to meet the systems early detection benefits as system is more advanced. One thing is such a detection does provide us a much bigger window of communication and taking the final authorization to shoot down to missile launch for intercept. (presently its 60 secs in my assumption but i feel we can get it to comfortable 90-100 seconds window a almost 50+% increase in decision making and communication of trespass and path change for incoming hostile)

View attachment 283751

The detection of sea skimming at 60 km gives us a comfort for firing double salvo for Barak 8 speeds greater than Mach 2 engaging hostile missiles with Speed greater than Mach 3. This provides us with an additional protection in case the first Barak 8 is not able to hit the incoming missile and the second launch can engage to intercept.

Good work

The Barak 8 standard version will not be able to meet the systems early detection benefits as system is more advanced.

here system means you are saying radar

I think land version will have more powerful radar to give early detection which why they making land version of 150 + KM

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Good work

here system means you are saying radar

I think land version will have more powerful radar to give early detection which why they making land version of 150 + KM

Yes sir, system means 2248 radar detecting LO bird at 250km or Missile sea skimming @60km


Land version radar could be the key if we do get extended range for land version. But if we do get that our FCRs have to detect LO targets again at 250km.. With new AESA radar like 2070 types, satellite detection and perhaps AWACS this may be possible.

Personally I feel we should have a mix of barak 8 and 8ER in ships as well as land versions... That gives us a much better armaments especially if we consider economics and financial part..

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @WAJsal @SpArK
Made another attempt with the numbers considering LO detection by 2248 at 250km and sea skimming at60km from previous 150km and 40km respectively
This is as per what @ni8mare had asked...
Such a case does provide us with a need of ER version and also a longer response/ decision making window

 

[ni8mare]

Yes sir, system means 2248 radar detecting LO bird at 250km or Missile sea skimming @60km


Land version radar could be the key if we do get extended range for land version. But if we do get that our FCRs have to detect LO targets again at 250km.. With new AESA radar like 2070 types, satellite detection and perhaps AWACS this may be possible.

Personally I feel we should have a mix of barak 8 and 8ER in ships as well as land versions... That gives us a much better armaments especially if we consider economics and financial part..

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @WAJsal @SpArK
Made another attempt with the numbers considering LO detection by 2248 at 250km and sea skimming at60km from previous 150km and 40km respectively
This is as per what @ni8mare had asked...
Such a case does provide us with a need of ER version and also a longer response/ decision making window

please don't call me sir it's weird

Personally I feel we should have a mix of barak 8 and 8ER in ships as well as land versions... That gives us a much better armaments especially if we consider economics and financial part..

Indeed there is....because most of the aircraft will not be LO here where Barak 8 ER comes into play
while for AShm standard Barak 8 missile will be more effective provided even with early detection

 

[Donatello]

@SpokespersonMoD 4h4 hours ago
Indian Navy achieves a significant milestone in enhancing its anti missile defence capability.(1/4)
‏@SpokespersonMoD 4h4 hours ago
Successfully test fires long range surface to air missiles from INS Kolkata. Aerial targets destroyed at extended ranges. (2/4)
@SpokespersonMoD 4h4 hours ago
Quantum jump in air defence capability of Indian Navy. LRSAMs being fitted in capital warships progressively. (3/4)
@SpokespersonMoD 4h4 hours ago
Joint effort of Indian Navy, DRDO & M/s IAI, Israel.(4/4)


- All capital ships getting barak 8
- Extended range implies closer to 70-100 Km

Source :Indian Navy successfully test fires Long Range Barak 8 missile from INS Kolkata - The Economic Times

Excerpts
These Surface to Air Missiles are fitted onboard the Kolkata Class Destroyers and would also be fitted on all future major warships of the Indian Navy. This missile along with the MF STAR would provide these ships the capability to neutralize aerial threats at extended ranges.



++ My opinion on barak 8 challenges (pls bear its a maxi post)

Next would be the Barak 8 ER version or extended range with one more stage probably a booster stage.. I am expecting it perhaps to reach 150 km minimum with outer peripheral reach or max reach of 170 odd kms

It would be interesting to see how soon the ER version comes out and whats the length of the extended section. Significantly, if they limit the speed to present levels of Barak 8, the fuel burn out per second and requisite thrust may optimally boost it to 150-170 km range over flightpath.

In case, they increase the fuel burnout and use the higher thrust momentum to accelerate the missile forward and increase its speed of interception then the new extended range may fall between 130-150 km

The greatest challenge now will be to see that new ER does not get too big in length, weight and can replace 8 Barak 8s with say 6 Barak 8 ER cells. This makes me to believe, they would choose the first option of not increasing speed but rather the flight time for the optimum 150-170 km range

Interestingly MFSTAR 2248 AESA may be be insufficient for Barak 8 ER for aircraft engagement but the low flying sea skimming missile characteristics needs a bit upgrade IMHO
From IAI
www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/0/30310.pdf
View attachment 283642


A stealth fighter or a LO fighter carrying a sea skimmed AshM will create detection issues and perhaps will be more reasonable to assume detection at around 150-180 km and thus the barak 8 ER engagement will be closer to 60-100 kms (same as Barak 8 present model). Similarly, a sea skimming missile detection range at 25 kms will again force a more judicious use of Barak 8 over Barak 8 ER. BTW the mast of Kolkata is higher and hence the radar detection of sea skimming is more in the range of 35-40km.

However, the present 2248 is optimized for Barak 8 but IMHO, the AESA radar itself will limit the optimum potential of the system with both tracking of LO jets at low altitude and sea skimming missile detection

Now consider a hypothetical scenario

• An AESA radar which enables our ships to detect LO aircraft at low altitude around 150 km (assuming to be flying at say Mach 2 (2450 km/hr or 40.833~41 km/minute). (150km being 60% of high flying aircraft detection and due to higher mast).
• The assumption is that detection to authorisation of hostile intent shootdown is assumed to be minimum of 1 minute
• In that 1 minute the LO aircraft flies further towards IN ship to ~ 110 km range
• At the end of 1 minute Barak 8 is fired (standard/ER anyone)
• Assuming Barak 8 speed as 2 mach same as incoming aircraft so it travels 41 km per minute
• after 1 minute Barak 8 has travel 41 km from the ship and hostile aircraft has travelled further 41 km from previous 110 km and is now at 68 km approx. The distance between the two now is 27 km
• With each travelling around 0.68 km per second, the engagement will happen in approx 21 seconds about 41+14=55 km from the ship (41km already traveled and 14km traveled in 21 second)
• End to end calculation is as under
  • Detection at T0 = 150 km
  • Detection, Warning, Authorization of shoot down and firing = 1 minute, hostile at 110 km
  • Engagement in 1 minute 20 seconds from T0 or 80 seconds at 55 km from the ship
• Assume further a sea skimming missile is fired just before the hostile is destroyed.
  • Detection of sea skimmed missile at 40km the new T0 (assuming the missile is already now in its supersonic speed when detected)
  • Immediately Barak 8 is fired time lapsed 15 seconds
  • Sea skimmer assume again Mach 3 (Brahmos is mach 2.8) travelling at 3375 km/hr or 56.25 km per min or 0.9375km/sec
  • So in 15 seconds before barak 8 is fired, the sea skimmer missile travels 14 km inwards and is now 26km away from the ship
  • Barak 8 engages the hostile in approx 15 seconds where barak 8 travels 10.88 km whereas the hostile at mach 3 travels inwards by approx 15 km and is shot down
  • Implies the barak8 shot down the missile at ~11km from the ship
• End to end calculation
  • Detection at new To = 40km
  • Detection, Warning, Authorization of shoot down and firing = 15 seconds and hostile is now at 26km from ship
  • Engagement in 15+15 = 30 seconds from T0 at 11 km from the ship

The above is a hypothetical example and variables may change the reaction time smaller.
In the scenario mentioned, the efficacy of Barak8 itself for supersonic targets is enough and even Barak8 standard type is not using the full extent of its range. It can use the same if the hostile aircraft and missiles travels at speed mentioned below

View attachment 283726

I am not even considering that aircraft and hostile missile may exhibit high G turns and try to avoid interception making reaction time smaller and more closer to ship


Thus, here based on the above approximate guesstimation, the 2248 radar detection for LO targets will limits the performance to the Barak 8 standard version for higher speed hostiles (aircraft LO types lower altitude and engagement distance). The same is also seen for sea skimming missiles detection (i considered upto hypersonic 5 mach)

The extended version or Barak 8 ER will need LO aircraft at low altitude detection in much excess of present assumed 150 km but rather the 250km for standard LO birds and other higher altitude detection at more of 350-400km range

@Vauban @Abingdonboy @anant_s @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec and others
Pls correct me if i am wrong in concluding the limitation of 2248 for LO aircraft low altitude flying interception for barak 8 standard version and for detecting sea skimming missiles at 40 km implying the Barak8 is never used to its full potential.
The pinpoint interception is fine but design for longer range and effectively not able to due to limitation of system detection is what i am trying to point out.

BTW i dont know what other option we have other than perhaps getting IAI help in increasing 2248 range for LO detection

Now recalculate for a Mach 4 + 200km+ range CM400AKG or YJ-12.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Now recalculate for a Mach 4 + 200km+ range CM400AKG or YJ-12.

Done that sir in the ss.. Detection at 40km at mach 4 with 15 seconds used for detection authorisation to fire and launch leaves approximately 5 seconds of flight time for barak8 to intercept about3.4 km from the ship.
From the time of detection its an overall window of detection launch and intercept of 20 seconds total.
That is precisely why I said the ability of our AESA radar to detect sea skimming must be increased from present 40km in Kolkata class.

In this page I had posted the reworked numbers with detection at 60km for sea skimming missiles. At mach 4 detection at 60km , launch authorisation and launch in 15 seconds leave the barak8 to travel for 14 seconds and engage at around 20km from the ship with overall time from detection to interception at 29 seconds.
This is enough for a second launch initiated for another attempt to intercept albeit it will be far far closer to the ship post first attempt failure.
A better way could be increasing barak8 speed upwards of Mach2 to more of Mach3/4 which gives additional time frame of multiple attempts to intercept.

Interestingly, both these missiles carrying platforms will be detected even with LO abilities much earlier implying the higher probability of engagement factor minimising the decision making to launch time frame to perhaps full automation. This could turn out to be the ideal choice between annihilation by the incoming Missile to successful interception

Again this is my analysis. The real battle scenario may be far more complex and will have multiple variables including other detection means and counters which can effectively change the course of all this..

 

[Fandingo]

Under joint testing of Barak 8 Israel will test for small ranges from its warships whereas India will conduct for long ranges (i.e. upto 70 km currently), this way both are sharing cost for testing New weapon .

Now recalculate for a Mach 4 + 200km+ range CM400AKG or YJ-12.

The missile has 120 km range. It is guided by a radar with eyes up to 250 km. Most chances the enemy fighter gets sniped out of sky.

If by miracle it survives and launches missile then salvo fire of Barak 8 can stop missile. (cm 400 akj attains speed of mach ~ 3.5 - 4 ish some 20 km away from ship).

Besides that's assuming whatever the enemy throes at us survives mig 29k cordon and multi tiered air supremacy.

 

[AtiF Malang]

Every time India comes with some new weapon , Pakistan always introduces a counter .
Hope this joy of Indians will not lost long like Nuclear Blast, Cold start and AWACS etc

 

[Fandingo]

Every time India comes with some new weapon , Pakistan always introduces a counter .
Hope this joy of Indians will not lost long like Nuclear Blast, Cold start and AWACS etc

Except we are outpacing you technologically as well as financially. Rather than being a sore butt go to the Chinese defence forum threads and gander there. These statements are kiddish.

 

[AtiF Malang]

Except we are outpacing you technologically as well as financially. Rather than being a sore butt go to the Chinese defence forum threads and gander there. These statements are kiddish.

How you are out pacing us?
We have all means what we need to secure our country
Look at your size resources and population and compare yourself to any country with the same figures you are far behind .
i gurentee you not an yea but within months your joy of Barak will be nowhere
Just wait n see

 

[Zek]

How you are out pacing us?
We have all means what we need to secure our country
Look at your size resources and population and compare yourself to any country with the same figures you are far behind .
i gurentee you not an yea but within months your joy of Barak will be nowhere
Just wait n see

And where is Pakistan compared to the Israelies?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Every time India comes with some new weapon , Pakistan always introduces a counter .

Really? More like you conduct another Nasr "test".

 

[ni8mare]

AWACS

 

[desimorty]

Every time India comes with some new weapon , Pakistan always introduces a counter .
Hope this joy of Indians will not lost long like Nuclear Blast, Cold start and AWACS etc

Source: LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6

You really think Indians are building Agni missiles, supersonic and hypersonic missiles because of Pakistan?
There is nothing to counter.