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Losing My Religion?

.......................................an argument on per-destine


By definition, Allaah created time and thus Allaah is outside time. When an entity goes
outside the sphere of time, that entity by definition instantly experiences everything that what happened, what has
happened and what will happen. Not my idea. It is Einstein’s.

-Suppose, you are living in a world of two dimension, one dimension is length, and another dimension is width.
-Now, suppose there is an object inside a circle, and you are told to pull out that object from the circle to the out side of the circles without cutting the circle. Possible? No. Because since you are living in a world of two dimension, you have no idea of the third dimension which is height. If you were lived in a world of third dimension, then you could pull that object outside the circle using the third dimension which is the height. Like that, Allah exists in somewhere beyond this world's four dimensions, so Allah can see the future.

Allaah knows the past, present and future

Another helpful following argument on Who created Allah, which is Quoted from other sources:

Sometimes it does not need a better explanation, it needs better understanding. The arguments presented here are presented by Great philosophers for many centuries. I suggest you get some professional training in Philosophy and Logic of Language and it will become easier to comprehend the argument. Let us clear the definitions.

Creator, by definition is ‘The uncreated who creates’. Those who do not fully comprehend the definition says ‘Creator is someone who creates’ and thus needs another creator.

For a novice, this explanation should suffice:

1. There are created beings in the universe.
2. Created being needs a Creator.
3. Created being cannot create, only transform.
3. Therefore, there is an uncreated being who created the first created being.

For a trained mind, the cosmological argument would suffice:

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

Thus my first statement isn’t contradictory. Again you are not aware of the definition of ‘contradiction’. The argument I have presented is based on ’cause and effect’. As per definition of cause and effect, there must be a first cause, the uncaused cause. The argument of the ‘uncreated’ follows the same principle.

Human have ‘defined’ the idea of Creator as ‘The uncaused who caused the first cause’, ‘The uncreated who creates’ etc. Once you understand the definition clearly, you can follow the argument easily as well.
 
Another question related to my previous post#21:

10. Allah knows which is best for us, so if we do not get something that we pray for, we say it was to not good for us, so Allah has not given that to us. But Allah can do everything, it means Allah can also convert a bad thing for me into good thing.

suppose, someone is blind, the believers say that is good for him, if he had eye sight, he could have been a terrorist, so whatever Allah has done to him, was good for time. But my question is Allah can do everything, so he can still give him eye sight, and prevent him form being terrorist in other way. Why making him blind by born?
 
- I am an atheist.
- I am not 100% sure that god does not exist, but I never seen any proof of his existence therefore by default I accept that he does not exist.
- I am 100% sure that all major religions are wrong.
 
If God exists, it's claimed that Islam is the true religion, then why it's the one that always takes the hardest way at anything, at least most of them?

Sorry, i dont understand? Hardest on what?

I know the reason of fasting and ramazan but it's not healthy for we humans other than loosing weight. It says us to encourage little kids to fast. But especially for them; it's harmful. Why stopping eating and become hungry to feel others instead of buying a meal for a poor person to make him/her feel better and healthy.

We don't fast to feel like poor people. If you've ever felt hunger you know how hard it is. God wants to see if you will stay firm in the face of hunger and thirst so HE can reward you even more for it.

Why Arabic why? Every social, family laws of Islam is based at Arabic culture and arabic nationalism. Honestly I don't wanna learn sth religious with Arabic. Why would I learn Arabic to find out my religion?

That's wrong bro if it was really arabic culture, the quraysh wouldn't have opposed the prophet(pbuh) as much as they did. Islam removed female infanticide, arabs used to marry as many women as they wanted, no one cared about the poor and there used to be alot of fighting between tribes.

If our fate's already written, why God wants to examine it's people. Why there is a need for "a Quiz" as every soul's fate is
written?

If God just threw you into hell, would that be fair? You haven't done anything he just throws you into hell. That would be unjust, and God is not unjust. You have to do the action before God can punish you for it. God isn't going to throw you into heaven and hell without you doing the actions that caused you to be put there.

I read some parts. It says to kill those who reject Islam. What's goin on there. Is this comin from the "religion of peace".

That is just flat out wrong. There is nothing about killing those who reject islam in the quran.: “Let there be no compulsion in religion...[Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256] and there is nothing about killing apostates in Quran. Judge islam on Quran not muslims.

I've never seen a race/country who accepted Islam without having a war with the Arabic, or a bloody civil war under the name of "revolution". EX: I'm Circassian, we were christian (ortodox) actually., when the arabs came to caucasus to spread their view, we've resisted for dozens of years. then We've been broken up. And accepted Islam. Ok.

Those wars were justified, the Caliph would send messengers to them and they would kill the messengers. It was an act of war. Here is something i don't get, if someone forced you to convert, would you really believe in that religion? would you let your kids believe in that religion? if people were forced to convert, you would only find islam in arabia today.

If Islamic rules are the best (it has to be if it's the true religion). Why all of the muslim nations we know are either in a civil war or there's a dictatorship or people uprise or HDI and GDP is very very low?

:laughcry: I gurantee you there is not 1 muslim country on earth that follows islam purely on the quran. Quran does not support dictatorship. Your supposed to fight tyrants even if the oppressed are non muslims. and about hdgdp, and civil war I would say resources and western powers. If i talk about that this thread will go a whole other way.

I get that; cigarettes and alcohol (count alcohol out IMO) are forbidden because they are harmful. But why there's a restrict for sexual relationship. At least it starts to become a human need even at the middle of the teenage period according to researchs.

:what: Have you seen jerry springer or maury?

Anyways, for my logic, Of course there's a God. But Islam? I'm not sure about it ???

What do you say? I'd like to hear opinions from muslim/jewish/christian/hindu/atheist members.

(I was gonna open that thread in somewhere else. But then either there'd be a religion war or people trying to act like clerics/saints, i do want to hear some serious facts, assistance, replies with logic)[/QUOTE]

Well this took me a while to write. I'm sure you have questions and I'll be more than happy to answer bro.
 
Well the title is right. And a question to be shoot through.

well actually, since my academy years till the previous month. I was an atheist. But before that i was always and still asking questions to myself about is there a God really? Today I'm the guy who has learned Quran. But especially lately this week, i was kind of a Einstein. yes, today I do believe that there's God but I am not sure about Islam, like;

If God exists, it's claimed that Islam is the true religion, then why it's the one that always takes the hardest way at anything, at least most of them?

I know the reason of fasting and ramazan but it's not healthy for we humans other than loosing weight. It says us to encourage little kids to fast. But especially for them; it's harmful. Why stopping eating and become hungry to feel others instead of buying a meal for a poor person to make him/her feel better and healthy.

Why Arabic why? Every social, family laws of Islam is based at Arabic culture and arabic nationalism. Honestly I don't wanna learn sth religious with Arabic. Why would I learn Arabic to find out my religion?

If our fate's already written, why God wants to examine it's people. Why there is a need for "a Quiz" as every soul's fate is written?

I read some parts. It says to kill those who reject Islam. What's goin on there. Is this comin from the "religion of peace".

I've never seen a race/country who accepted Islam without having a war with the Arabic, or a bloody civil war under the name of "revolution". EX: I'm Circassian, we were christian (ortodox) actually., when the arabs came to caucasus to spread their view, we've resisted for dozens of years. then We've been broken up. And accepted Islam. Ok.

If Islamic rules are the best (it has to be if it's the true religion). Why all of the muslim nations we know are either in a civil war or there's a dictatorship or people uprise or HDI and GDP is very very low?

I get that; cigarettes and alcohol (count alcohol out IMO) are forbidden because they are harmful. But why there's a restrict for sexual relationship. At least it starts to become a human need even at the middle of the teenage period according to researchs.

Anyways, for my logic, Of course there's a God. But Islam? I'm not sure about it ???

What do you say? I'd like to hear opinions from muslim/jewish/christian/hindu/atheist members.

(I was gonna open that thread in somewhere else. But then either there'd be a religion war or people trying to act like clerics/saints, i do want to hear some serious facts, assistance, replies with logic)

Hi bro!!

Well, @Aeronaut has answered really well.....
But if you have more questions feel free to ask!!
If you need
 
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Well you ask the wrong one. I am a Lutheran but mainly because my parents are. Actually I do not believe in God and fasting. I do not know much about religious. Sorry :( @Neptune

So it can be considered that I am an atheist with my own belief since my parents let me free to do what I want. I believe in reincarnation and incarnation. I believe that good people will have a better life in the next life :D However I behave nicely to every people not because I want to have a better life in my next life, it is because I want to have good relation with people. In addition, I do not want to have premarital sex although in my culture and religious it is very normal (people need to know their partner well in order to have a good decision before too late). I dont want to have premaritual sex because I think that true love waits :).

Some of my friends do fasting. Not because they think that it is religious. It is because they want to refresh their bodies and good for their health.

So after all, what is religious? It is just what you believe and follow.

One fun fact: Lutheran countries (North Europe, Scandiavia and Baltic region) have the lowest rate of criminal. Do you think that it is because of religious?
I live near Helsinki, I let my gate opens everyday, and my car key is inside the car all the time but nothing stolen :D. My answer is that religious do not make people being better. It is education. (Well, religious does educate people so it is still consider as one part of education but it is only one part :D)
 
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I am an agnostic of sorts,i think i believe in a higher power.But what i believe is that this higher power is not really monitoring us as such.Consider the vast universe,and we are insignificant speck before it,like bacteria.You think a higher power would have time to sit and monitor each of us?Do we keep track of millions of miscroscopic insects that co habit this earth with us?In relative to the scope of the universe we are even less.
So i believe in a higher power,but what i don't believe in is organized religion.It seems to be to be clearly manmade.The bias towards women in most religions[an ideal religion wouldn't even have to utter the word 'woman' it would simply lay guidelines applicable to all human beings] and here the very existence of 'guidelines' seems totally contradictary to me..to provide a strict list of do's and don'ts like religious scriptures is to negate our inherent free will....they contradict each other and seem to be to be human interpretations of morality and attempts to impose their particular worldview on its followers.
 
Well the title is right. And a question to be shoot through.

well actually, since my academy years till the previous month. I was an atheist. But before that i was always and still asking questions to myself about is there a God really?
Asking questions! First step to learning. Bro I research on Islam extensively and often in very great detail. Even I was extremely confused because of the sectarian diffrence it seemed like islam is diffrent for everyone. I was dissapointed and disgusted to the extent that I became agnostic and then even an Atheist (I admit) for sometime But I gradualy talked which broadened my view a lot, and I learned that we should concentrate on the Basics instead of pondering in minute details So let me warn you don't get into the Sectarian diffrences If you want to learn about Islam.

Today I'm the guy who has learned Quran.
Reading is diffrent then learning! It is the most wonderfull book ever
But especially lately this week, i was kind of a Einstein. yes, today I do believe that there's God but I am not sure about Islam, like;

If God exists, it's claimed that Islam is the true religion, then why it's the one that always takes the hardest way at anything, at least most of them?

I know the reason of fasting and ramazan but it's not healthy for we humans other than loosing weight.
actualy it is quite healthy (read the link aero gave) and the most Important thing you learn is Self control!
It says us to encourage little kids to fast. But especially for them; it's harmful. Why stopping eating and become hungry to feel others instead of buying a meal for a poor person to make him/her feel better and healthy.
Fasting as little as 7 is Ok
Why Arabic why? Every social, family laws of Islam is based at Arabic culture and arabic nationalism.
Nope. There is a huge diffrence between Pre-Islamic Arab culture which gave no dignity to women and had countless social ills
Honestly I don't wanna learn sth religious with Arabic. Why would I learn Arabic to find out my religion?
Who told you it's cumpulsory?
If our fate's already written, why God wants to examine it's people. Why there is a need for "a Quiz" as every soul's fate is written?
The only things written are place you are going to be born , your parents etc
Rest
THERE IS NO FATE, BUT WHAT WE MAKE
[/B]
I read some parts. It says to kill those who reject Islam. What's goin on there. Is this comin from the "religion of peace".
Islam values life greatly! According to Islam killing 1 innocent is like killing whole of humanity!
I've never seen a race/country who accepted Islam without having a war with the Arabic, or a bloody civil war under the name of "revolution". EX: I'm Circassian, we were christian (ortodox) actually., when the arabs came to caucasus to spread their view, we've resisted for dozens of years. then We've been broken up. And accepted Islam. Ok.

If Islamic rules are the best (it has to be if it's the true religion). Why all of the muslim nations we know are either in a civil war or there's a dictatorship or people uprise or HDI and GDP is very very low?
NO muslim country is following Islam truly in this Age. If we follow Islam truely Muslims will dominate the world again
I get that; cigarettes and alcohol (count alcohol out IMO) are forbidden because they are harmful. But why there's a restrict for sexual relationship. At least it starts to become a human need even at the middle of the teenage period according to researchs.
Islam caters for all our needs. That is the reason Islam encourages early marriage :)
Anyways, for my logic, Of course there's a God. But Islam? I'm not sure about it ???
Islam is a complete code of Life. I am sure if you will get out of the confusion. Hold on tight to the Rope of Allah i.e. Quran
What do you say? I'd like to hear opinions from muslim/jewish/christian/hindu/atheist members.
This is from an all weather Friend!
 
- I am an atheist.
- I am not 100% sure that god does not exist, but I never seen any proof of his existence therefore by default I accept that he does not exist.
- I am 100% sure that all major religions are wrong.

There is a soul in your body.which is like a electro force , which control your body's every activity and which is actually you or I. But can you see the soul of you ? or simply The sound. what we see is actually it's pathway but can we see the sound in our own eye ? Can you see the air ? Ans is - No , we can't.

SO is that mean that these things don't exist ? In dream we saw us . we can talk with dreamy bodies etc. Question is,how it is possible.

We say, to speech a word you need to do movement of your mouth etc. but when we speech in mind, we can hear our though, we can speech to our self . but nobody can guess what we're thinking. So how it is possible?

So, before saying research. sudden decision leads to great error
 
One thing I noticed in all Semitic religions is god loves the Semites over all other people. Where are the Korean, Chinese, Mexican prophets etc? In the end the Arabs benefit - due to being revered by the muslims all over the world and gain tremendous amounts of cash in annual pilgrimage. Same goes for the Christians who consider Jews "gods chosen" and are willing to act as their Shabbos goy.
 
I am an agnostic of sorts,i think i believe in a higher power.But what i believe is that this higher power is not really monitoring us as such.Consider the vast universe,and we are insignificant speck before it,like bacteria.You think a higher power would have time to sit and monitor each of us?Do we keep track of millions of miscroscopic insects that co habit this earth with us?In relative to the scope of the universe we are even less.
So i believe in a higher power,but what i don't believe in is organized religion.It seems to be to be clearly manmade.The bias towards women in most religions[an ideal religion wouldn't even have to utter the word 'woman' it would simply lay guidelines applicable to all human beings] and here the very existence of 'guidelines' seems totally contradictary to me..to provide a strict list of do's and don'ts like religious scriptures is to negate our inherent free will....they contradict each other and seem to be to be human interpretations of morality and attempts to impose their particular worldview on its followers.

You are not agnostic...You are a deist....or something like that!An agnostic is by definition an atheist!
 
One thing I noticed in all Semitic religions is god loves the Semites over all other people. Where are the Korean, Chinese, Mexican prophets etc? In the end the Arabs benefit - due to being revered by the muslims all over the world and gain tremendous amounts of cash in annual pilgrimage. Same goes for the Christians who consider Jews "gods chosen" and are willing to act as their Shabbos goy.

Actually no, if you read the last sermon of the Prophet(S.A.W) it is mentioned that no Arab has precedence over a non Arab and no non Arab has precedence on an Arab, same for a White over Black and vice versa, except for piety. As for prophets it is also mentioned that there has been prophets sent to all nations, it's just that they are so numerous in number that they are not all mentioned.
 
I have found it very easy to understand these concepts, by concentrating on "Death"

If there is ONE truth, one fate determined to happen, than it is death.

Can you imagine society / life without death ? can you guess what all will change in life if there was no death ?

the more you thing about it, the more you will understand that each and every thing you do, obeys the above principle.
 
1.One thing I noticed in all Semitic religions is god loves the Semites over all other people. 2. Where are the Korean, Chinese, Mexican prophets etc? 3. In the end the Arabs benefit - due to being revered by the muslims all over the world and gain tremendous amounts of cash in annual pilgrimage. 4.Same goes for the Christians who consider Jews "gods chosen" and are willing to act as their Shabbos goy.

1. In Islam, there is no one is dearer to God, but the most pious one whatever his/her race is.
2. There were prophets in every nation according to the Quran: a proof of this is that moral values all around the world are almost same- people changed their teachings, especially about worshiping one God.
3. a. you are thinking in present economic terms, Arab is geographically the most difficult part to live in.
b. Arabs have been given A Holy place in barren mountains- but most part of the world has been given tremendous resources to earn and live a good life.
4. Does not relate to Islam.
 
Well the title is right. And a question to be shoot through.

well actually, since my academy years till the previous month. I was an atheist. But before that i was always and still asking questions to myself about is there a God really? Today I'm the guy who has learned Quran. But especially lately this week, i was kind of a Einstein. yes, today I do believe that there's God but I am not sure about Islam, like;

If God exists, it's claimed that Islam is the true religion, then why it's the one that always takes the hardest way at anything, at least most of them?

I know the reason of fasting and ramazan but it's not healthy for we humans other than loosing weight. It says us to encourage little kids to fast. But especially for them; it's harmful. Why stopping eating and become hungry to feel others instead of buying a meal for a poor person to make him/her feel better and healthy.

Why Arabic why? Every social, family laws of Islam is based at Arabic culture and arabic nationalism. Honestly I don't wanna learn sth religious with Arabic. Why would I learn Arabic to find out my religion?

If our fate's already written, why God wants to examine it's people. Why there is a need for "a Quiz" as every soul's fate is written?

I read some parts. It says to kill those who reject Islam. What's goin on there. Is this comin from the "religion of peace".

I've never seen a race/country who accepted Islam without having a war with the Arabic, or a bloody civil war under the name of "revolution". EX: I'm Circassian, we were christian (ortodox) actually., when the arabs came to caucasus to spread their view, we've resisted for dozens of years. then We've been broken up. And accepted Islam. Ok.

If Islamic rules are the best (it has to be if it's the true religion). Why all of the muslim nations we know are either in a civil war or there's a dictatorship or people uprise or HDI and GDP is very very low?

I get that; cigarettes and alcohol (count alcohol out IMO) are forbidden because they are harmful. But why there's a restrict for sexual relationship. At least it starts to become a human need even at the middle of the teenage period according to researchs.

Anyways, for my logic, Of course there's a God. But Islam? I'm not sure about it ???

What do you say? I'd like to hear opinions from muslim/jewish/christian/hindu/atheist members.

(I was gonna open that thread in somewhere else. But then either there'd be a religion war or people trying to act like clerics/saints, i do want to hear some serious facts, assistance, replies with logic)

Before talking about the logical proofs, it is better the have in mind that not every commandment has to be for the sake of your physical or spiritual benefit in this life. some may only be there as a test for which the person will be rewarded in the next life. Different religions were forbidden different things and allowed different things. The Jews were forbidden what was allowed in Islam and vice versa. why so? Because Allah wanted to test different nations with different commands. In Quran Allah says that it is not Allah Who will be questioned for what He does but it is you who will be questioned for your deeds.

Having said that, Allah does not do anything in vain. Islam was sent to perfect earlier religions. In some cases it allowed what was not allowed before and in other cases it disallowed what was allowed to previous nations. For example in Quran Allah says that He forbid one of the previous nations from a certain things as a punishment for their transgressions. Note that this thing was not prohibited because of the bad within it but as a consequence. With Islam these prohibitions were removed while other prohibitions such as with respect to consuming alcohol etc were imposed.

Coming to logical proof, let me avoid the specific questions to start with. Firstly, if God, The Creator, exists then it logically follows that He sends down some form of guidance to His creation to follow. And this must be send in a language which that community can understand and through a person with whom that community can interact. If this is not the case then it implies that God created the creation in sport and without any purpose and will one day destroy it in sport without any end. Now this is very ungodly and makes the god imperfect and deficient. Given that you believe in God, i think this is a good enuf logical proof for the religion to exist.

Secondly, 'fate' which is already written is the prior knowledge of Allah about your actions written down in a book before everything was created. Now my prior knowledge of my friend going to X restaurant and buying the Y item on the menu and then eating it is not a constraint for him. My knowing does not stop him from buying Z item on the menu rather than the Y item. But if my knowledge of him is perfect, he will definitely buy the Y item from the X restaurant. Now how is God's prior knowledge of every action, which is perfect in itself, a limitation to anyone's actions? So it logically follows that fate, which is a prior knowledge of Allah about everything to occur in the creation, is not a limitation to your free will.

So broadly speaking, if God exists then religion must exist and if religion exists then commandments must exist and if commandments exist then judgement must exist and if judgement exists then reward and punishment must exist. nothing of this is beyond logic as far as i can see.

Now come to the nature of commandments. again broadly speaking, you suggesting with certainty - rather than possibility - that a certain commandment has more evil in it than good must meet the prior condition of you knowing EVERYTHING about its good and bad. if that condition was ever met, scientific research would never be open to changing its conclusions. Less than 4 percent of the universe is matter which is what physics is roughly concerned with. Everything else is put into 'dark matter' and 'dark energy.' Now we dont even know the exact nature of the little amount of matter which exists in this universe. With so much uncertainty around our knowledge of the reality, it is irrational to conclude, with significant likelihood, something contrary to what God tell us to be more beneficial than harmful for us. To be more specific, I read an article in New Scientist (if i remember correctly) few weeks back which suggested the health benefits of fasting. Now you are suggesting to the contrary. I do not know your source of knowledge but each of them is a scientific possibility with different probabilities. Given the uncertainty around the underlying assumptions in these studies and also the uncertainty surrounding the specific methodologies, neither of these scientific possibilities can logically become our belief or contradict what was revealed by God.

which religion still retains most of its form it was revealed in? this can judged by going through its core text and comparing it with our scientific knowledge in which we have achieved certainty. like the earth is round etc etc. however, comparing core religious text/commandments against your speculative knowledge surrounded with all sorts of uncertainty is absurdity.

lastly, about prohibition of premarital sex. every action has a consequence and someone must have the ownership of that consequence for some sort of justice to be enforced. now the most obvious consequence of sex is child birth. no amount of contraception can assure with certainty that the lady wont get pregnant unless you get rid of your internal reproductive system medically. Anyways, apart from this, carelessness also results in hundreds of premarital teenage pregnancies all over the world. now who is to be held responsible for taking care of this child? If it is the state then it is a social burden! And also it is unjust to deny the child his right to proper parenting while it is unjust to let the lady bear the social and economic burden of the consequence for which she was not alone responsible. Moreover, there is a consensus in the social sciences about all sorts of negative effects of poor parenting on child development.
Now unfortunately in defiance to religion, 'modern' world has moved from rather than stopping the spread of the first social evil to legalizing another social evil of killing fetuses - abortions. Share the responsibility of your actions by signing the social contract - called marriage - and have as much sexual relation as you want. how is doing so not more beneficial at social, economic and emotional level?
 

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