Looking Back on Musharraf's Decision to Join "War on Terror"

[Elmo]

First thing that the paks need to do is to get their heads out of where it is too dark----it has been ten years and the world is screwed up----and the prime culprits is pakistan and pakistanis---- a part reason in the deaths of a million and halfmuslims in iraq and a million dead muslims in afghanistan----a lot of blame falls on pakistan for not doing what was needed to be done.

The taliban were stupid---they had no clue what was coming but on the other hand pakistan did----but it was so mad and angry at the americans for deceiving them regarding the F 16 sanctions that it let the americans fall into the trap-----not caring to acknowledge that it would result in the deaths of countless muslims and the feet of christian armies in a muslim land----.

I am torn apart for what you pakistanis have done to my afghan brothers----you wanted to make a vietnam of the americans at the expense of the afghans---and you fooled the afghan taliban----you fooled them again to be murdered by invading armies----you cry about your pains and sufferings----you cry about the few thousand killed----how about close to a million killed and no peace in sight----who is going to cry tears for those innocents---. Those who got crushed in the game playde by the rogue yemeni arab---the superpower and the spiteful ex partner.

You know what----whatever happens---all you pakistanis with all those holier than thou attitudes---history would judge pakistanis very harshly---it will hold you personally responsible for the atrocities committed against the afghans----.

It is not a good enough reason that none of the hijackers were pakistanis----but all the culprits were found hiding in pakistan----hidden by pakistanis.

Pakistan played a nasty game----but it didnot know how nasty the american could get----.

Mastan - look at who thanked you for the post and think hard as to whether you got the message across.

I know what you are talking about, but do you think others think on the same wavelength?

Will they?

Or wait - you became a fundamentalist and I missed out on that?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Mastan
I refuse to accept th responsibility for the 9/11 planning and attacks.
I refuse to accept the responsibility for the deceison by Taliban to host the Al Qaeda leadership
I refuse to accept the responsibility for Taliban refusal to hand over OBL to Saudi or American authorities.

Because at no level any Pakistan was involved in the decision making
I also refuse to accept the responsibly of American decision to Invade Afghanistan and the resulting carnage from the displacement of civilians on either side of the Pak- Afghan border because Americans never asked for such permission, they were smelling blood and wanted revenge.

Blaming Pakistan for Iraq and middle eastern turmoil? Wow you are giving us too much credit and this blame is so absurd that I don’t even want to comment on it.

As far as the rest of the respected members are concerned, yes I am address you guys Zarvan, Hunter_hunted etc. I fail to understand you
Maybe its my limited education or my basic comprehension and logical thinking that is very basic and doesn’t reach the heights you have attained. Therefore I fail to see how you can glorify Taliban who don’t have any respect for their own lives or those unfortunate enough to be near them. Doing so while shamlessly and stubbornly ignoring the Holy Quran and Hadith teaching the Muslims to respect life and view it as a gift but all the Taliban and their clones have managed the opposite.

This ulcer was building up for decades long before WoT, from the discrete wall chalking to not so discrete killing of minorities, hate speeches , pamphlets , booklets and attacks directed against the minority sects and religions in the society. It only reached the boiling point and it burst with the WoT and you have someone else to blame.
Its always somebody else’s fault right? Never yours, its always about you, yourt and yourself only, your way of thinking is the right think, either we agree to that or you will hurt us that’s how you preach. You will always have to think the worse of us. It will always have to be extreme.

Whenever you will talk about anyone who is different to you, you will always have spiteful , venomous and degrading. If you talk about shias then you spread stories of them organising orgies during Moharam, you would state the same about the Sufis and Beralvi Sunnis regarding their religious gatherings at shrienes and sufi festivals. When you will talk about Ahmedi jamat-khanas you will again talk sex. When you will see an independent , educated woman driving and going to work and providing for her family you will blame her for being lewd, vulgar and a prostitute. You always have others to blame but yourself that’s how you work and then you have these Taliban savages that you adore and no matter how many times they slit the throats of your fellow countrymen you will still not blame them but rest of us all

But you know what? This is all unsustainable, unnatural, it defines the logic of existence, it is against the natural flow of evolution and the way human developed . And most importantly this anarchy and terror is against the Islamic teaching therefore this madness will go and vanish in the history. The Only mention of Taliban will be among the savages who caused the chaos but they were swept away in the tides of time and the resulting consequences of their self destruction.

Joining WoT was like taking a distasteful medicine and there are consequently unpleasant reactions. The body has to catch cold for its immune system to learn the cure and destroy germs. Our security forces have gone a long way since 2000 to this day. Its just happens that unlike any other country the magnitude of this madness is so high that it will take time to see the results and reach the calm.

But trust me, we will defeat this violent ideology, and people like you will also change your mind and you will also distance yourself from Taliban ideology and will embrace the Islam of the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH who had place for everyone, where there was no shame in working for a Jew, where non-muslims came with confidence to the court to get justice. where they didn’t have to fear for their lives. They worked lived and practiced with peace without the danger of being abducted and beheaded for the crimes they never committed.

We will live on, Pakistan will exist and progress and Taliban will be history, removed, ignored and forgotten in time with only occasional references like those of the Mongols.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan - look at who thanked you for the post and think hard as to whether you got the message across.

I know what you are talking about, but do you think others think on the same wavelength?

Will they?

Or wait - you became a fundamentalist and I missed out on that?

Hi,

No, they are not on the same wavelength-----as a matter of fact they can't even seem to comprehend what I am saying----. Instead of Gen Mahmood telling Mullah Omar not to give away OBL he should have insisted rather forced him to get rid of OBL----.

Actually the biggest criminal of this scenario is the coward Osama Bin Laden himself----he really loved to save his skin and the skin of his wives and children at the cost of the lives of the afghans----. He was the outsider---he was a foreigner----he was the one who was hiding, if he had but an aota of character built in him----he would have given his life to save the invasion of muslim afghanistan by christian armies----he would have saved the lives of a million muslims just by giving his life away----.



Irfan quote

"Mastan
I refuse to accept th responsibility for the 9/11 planning and attacks.
I refuse to accept the responsibility for the deceison by Taliban to host the Al Qaeda leadership
I refuse to accept the responsibility for Taliban refusal to hand over OBL to Saudi or American authorities".


My brother----what difference does it make that you don't accept it or I don't accept it-------like if you are walking by the old and abandoned railway tracks where no trains have come for years and your five year old son is running in the middle of the tracks---jumping from one tie to the next and to you horror you hear and see a locomotive barreling in blasting its whistle-----warning you to get away-----what are we going to do my friend---are we going to grab your son by the arm and get him away from the tracks to save his life----or are we going to get mad and start yelling at the locomotive for being where it is not supposed to be and just keep on yelling and screaming till the child gets run over as well.

Actually that is what the pakistanis did with pakistan and afghanistan---my problem is with the generals and the visionaries who could not look far----they had vietnam on their minds----they had the revenge of the sanctions on their minds----.

Irfan---my good man---I don't understand what those refusals mean in any manner----they have come and they have done a job on us-----.

We should have found the needle to puncture the inflated balloon of american ignorance----we should have taken out OBL and his partners when they escaped at tora bora---we knew they were coming---the cnn knew---foxnews knew---msnbc knew----.

I am very much in favour of what Musharraf did---agreed to support the u s----but then he should have taken it one step further----he should have made the strike on al qaeda on his own and tried to take them out even before the americans had set foot in afghanistan----and if could not have---then he had all the oppurtunity at tora bora-----and he let it slip away.

That is the moment when the true dark period started in pakistan's history. that letting away was the cardinal sin. That was the failure of the millitary general staff officers in understanding the consequences.

 

[All-Green]

Because US is afraid of dying Taliban are not USA is afraid of many things in the world but Taliban are not their is hell of different when dying is not a problem for someone its a big problem for its enemies and when even getting hurt with minor wounds becomes problem that taking on that nation is a very easy job

That is quite an assumption.
Whereas bravery is not in the domain of any particular nation, in war there are victors and losers though both sides may have brave soldiers.


I think USA is afraid of losing its foot soldiers whereas the Taliban do not care for their foot soldiers. No leader or general is worth his salt if he deliberately puts his troops in harms way and yet tries his best to save his own skin only.

Dying is not a problem for Taliban but then why do all their leaders run and save their lives each and every time?
Why were thousands of clueless pawns left as cannon fodder for the invading forces?
Why was a multitude of teenagers and youngsters urged on by the likes of Sufi Muhammad to crossover the Durand line and help Taliban when Sufi Muhammad himself came back with his tail between his legs and accompanied by few of his sons and close advisers?
Did Fazlullah in Swat fight or flee after butchering innocents and urging his followers to fight?
For a Holy warrior (as they claim themselves to be) this is a disgrace!

I would say that when there is poverty and frustration due to both internal and external policies and there are a lot of youth who are not sure of a secure future...such circumstances are bound to give birth to risk takers who can be easily recruited with promises of glory.
Sad to see that the messengers rarely risk their own neck but send hundreds and thousands to their deaths.

So should we be proud of the desperate youth who are easily misled into suicide bombings and suicide attacks which kill innocent bystanders more than the proclaimed enemy?
Should we not think that this is perhaps a very desperate situation and the Afghan Taliban should avoid getting the innocent Afghan people killed whether pro or anti Taliban?

Why is it so easy to condemn an innocent to his death as an acceptable collateral if he trying to earn his livelihood by working in an area where the enemies of Taliban are present?
Sadly this has happened so many times.

Do you all think that it is easy to see one's family sink deeper and deeper into poverty and desperation?
When the Taliban initially came into being they promised unity, order and welfare.
They were supported by the locals and then they betrayed the trust by passing out orders that were insane to be mildly put.
When the Taliban stopped Afghan women from working it was like passing a death sentence for thousands of families which had lost their men to the wars!
Yet there are many who would still see their actions as Islamic, their was nothing Islamic about it...it was a most ignorant and barbaric order which condemned people to misery and there is nothing more hateful to Allah than a ruler who deliberately makes his wards miserable.

We saw the same in Swat whereby huge signs were posted outside the largest clothes market for women warning women not to enter the market...and we saw a shopkeeper in the same market praising the Taliban; it was ironic and plainly obvious that he was saying this only for fear of his life, otherwise no shopkeeper would praise someone who ensures that his business is doomed and he is left destitute.

These are not the Holy warriors we read about in our books...they were leaders who were first in line when the going was the toughest.
Uqba bin Nafe (RA) was a famous general who conquered all of Africa and then gave leave to most of his troops till only 300-400 Arabs were left and rest were all African newly converted Muslims.
One of the Chiefs of the African Berber Muslims was bearing a grudge against Uqba and was urging on the Africans to get rid of him.
Despite the advice of his troops, Uqba did not retain his thousands of veteran troops except the 300-400 soldiers.
When the Berber Chief rallied thousands and attacked Uqba, he stayed on and fought till he was martyred with his Army standard flying high.
I can give countless examples to prove the point.
After all these militant movements cite the likes of the great Khalid bin Waleed (RA), Saad bin Abi Waqqas (RA) etc. as an inspiration to their Holy Warrior image.
These men were great generals but always risked their own neck in the most dangerous phases of their campaigns.

At present i only see the youth who are being sacrificed on the alter of holiness while their great and brave commanders play hide and seek to live and fight another day.
I have no problem in living and fighting another day as a strategy, but when it only applies to a few hundred leaders and life of the foot soldier is considered dispensable...then they are not Holy Warriors at all.
If they are fighting a guerrilla war then they should save the lives of their men and the locals as well but it is not just survival, they want to retain their brand image and so send their people out to die deliberately and know very well that innocents will also be killed in crossfire.

So are the Taliban still rescuing the people?
Are the Taliban from A to Z not at all afraid of dying?
I am not convinced of this by virtue of their tactics and their ideology.

Certainly i do not welcome US presence in Afghanistan nor the manner in which they went about after 9/11, however the Taliban are not doing any favor to Afghans and have become avengers not rescuers.

 

[RiazHaq]

Had Musharraf said no, would there not have been an even more violent insurgency against foreign occupation and more frequent suicide bombings with even more horrible consequences for the civilian population of Pakistan?

As mightily as Pakistan has suffered at the hands of the Taliban and al Qaeda terrorists and their affiliates since 911, I do believe that Pakistanis would have been much worse off if Musharraf had not sided with the United States when asked after the worst terror attacks on US mainland.

As the only nation in the history of the world to have used nuclear weapons against civilian targets, I have to agree with Stratfor's George Friedman's characterization of America as "barbaric", particularly when it feels threatened by any external force. I believe the United States would not have hesitated one bit in using all of its political, economic and military might against nuclear-armed Pakistan had Musharraf's decision been any different.

Haq's Musings: What if Musharraf Had Said No to US After 911?

 

[third eye]

Had Musharraf said no, would there not have been an even more violent insurgency against foreign occupation and more frequent suicide bombings with even more horrible consequences for the civilian population of Pakistan?

As mightily as Pakistan has suffered at the hands of the Taliban and al Qaeda terrorists and their affiliates since 911, I do believe that Pakistanis would have been much worse off if Musharraf had not sided with the United States when asked after the worst terror attacks on US mainland.

As the only nation in the history of the world to have used nuclear weapons against civilian targets, I have to agree with Stratfor's George Friedman's characterization of America as "barbaric", particularly when it feels threatened by any external force. I believe the United States would not have hesitated one bit in using all of its political, economic and military might against nuclear-armed Pakistan had Musharraf's decision been any different.

Haq's Musings: What if Musharraf Had Said No to US After 911?

Any nation that has the resources & will to act would do the same what US did. The fact that it is the only nation to have used nukes has nothing to do with what it could do in the WOT. If USSR, France, Britan , China, India & Pak had the military & financial courage and leadership they would have / will use this weapon at some time or another when at war .Therefore this point has no relevance.

@ the subject, thanks to the direction the nation took Zia onwards the sufferings of Pak & its people would have been the same with or without having joined the WOT.

Only, now they have someone else to blame.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Mastan bhai thanks for your comments and I agree what you are saying, my refusal relates to the habit and the norm of guilty by association that has been applied on us normal, mere mortal peace loving Muslims.
Whenever there is an atrocity resulting from Islamic terrorism, we are made to feel guilty and explain ourselves. that’s where my objection is

You summed up OBL beautifully, he was nothing but a coward but also a hypocrite, he had all the curses for the west and warning for the “traitor” Muslim that are influenced by the west yet he has not said anything enough times about his own son who married a Spanish girl and has a very much look of a westernised Arab, maybe I missed it but I would have liked to see his fatwa against his son. But no!!! that was only for us.

Tora bora story needs a separate section because I have my misgivings about the way Americans conducted the operation and even gave way to escaping Taliban AQ leadership. Blaming Pakistan for that is unfair. Yes our performance is less than impressive but that only within the confined of Pakistani boundaries.

We are loosing our troops and informers on regular bases, Taliban execute villagers on weekly bases suspected of helping Americans or Pakistanis meaning our love affair is thing of the past. People who call themselves analysts and anchors have no clue about what they are talking about, they quote each other or a speculative article written by student add some more rhetoric from a tough talking American official, repeat it nth time and bingo!!! we have garbage and trash talk turned into evidence. And facts. So these reports blame Pakistani ISI and army of having secret links with Taliban and they base that on the fact that during Soviet invasion Pakistanis helped the mujahideen but they miss out the biggest fact here. TIME
Those officers and Mujahideen are either retired very old or dead now, Taliban are a new phenomenon they have no respect for anyone. They have themselves fought the Burhanudin and Himatyar , this is totally new bunch which is even more outrageous than the one that was et again helped and supported by Benazir and Americans in the beginning but then the Pakistani influence faded out as the Taliban became more ruthless and once they decided to become willing hosts of OBL and his bunch of thugs.

The blame for the failure to tackle and track these rats is mutual, Pakistan , American and Afghan leadership shares it. We all three are fighting and whining about each other and our common enemy and the enemy of the Afghan and Pakistani people is having a laugh. that’s a pity

While Americans themselves secretly are dealing with Taliban, yet they have problems with us having communication links with Taliban. Hell, even during war , the communication links are kept open with enemy because finally it’s the table that resolves the disputes but NO, the bloody mist and Hollywood bravado in so much charged up in some quarters of the American leadership that they just don’t care about the ground realities. Their soldiers have the same and equal contempt for the Pakistani and Afghan civilians like they exhibited for the Iraqis. Their way of winning the war of hearts and mind in their own words in the field is, two in the heart one in the mind and they have done it many times, after the death of civilians they will pat each other and say they are doing world a favour by killing a potential terrorist. Now that’s something Pakistan leadership military or civilian has no control over and seems like neither does Obama. Hence we see collateral damage and hollow threats from the choked Afghan president whenever the Americans discharge their weapons on the Afghan populace.

The real war will be fought at the schools and in the web, helping the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan to dismiss and distance themselves form Taliban and AQ terrorists and their allies. Just like the people of Aljazair and Tunis did. Only if we can dry up their supply lines will these terrorists die out eventually. Imagine like a root canal, the dentist breaks the nerve and blood supply to the tooth where the bacteria is feeding from and thus dies out eventually.

 

[RiazHaq]

Any nation that has the resources & will to act would do the same what US did. The fact that it is the only nation to have used nukes has nothing to do with what it could do in the WOT. If USSR, France, Britan , China, India & Pak had the military & financial courage and leadership they would have / will use this weapon at some time or another when at war .Therefore this point has no relevance.

@ the subject, thanks to the direction the nation took Zia onwards the sufferings of Pak & its people would have been the same with or without having joined the WOT.

Only, now they have someone else to blame.

Apparently the fact that US being the world's sole superpower that also has used WMDs against purely civilian targets seems to be lost on you.

But it wasn't lost on former US Defense Secretary Robert McNamara who acknowledged that the Americans involved in ordering and carrying out Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing and the firebombing of Tokyo would have been tried for war crimes if the US had lost the war.

Haq's Musings: Was McNamara a War Criminal?

 

[somebozo]

Give the Nawaz leverage on Talibans and his past record of handing over Aymel Kasi to CIA without any resistance, it is safe to argue that OBL could have been extradicted in the same manner. However US intentions were neither 9/11 revenge (inside job) nor OBL extradiction as stated. It has a far bigger planning of a permanent base in Asia to control the energy reserves of Central Asia. Remember, the US funded and supported Taliban on the same promise and when they turned away from their commitments of letting America be the sole energy player in post soviet Afghanistan, they were sanctioned and ultimately had to be taken out.

The Afghan savages has the entire Afghanistan field to play their barbarian games however the invasion caused their influxed into Pakistan as refugees and now they are doing the same with out citizens.

Now given the mushraff record of conspiring in Kargil to detablise the Nawaz government, it is obvious that he was a CIA mole.

It took America 10 years to extradit OBL via full scale millitary invasion, the same could have been achieved with lot less destruction and economic drain by conducting surgical operation and political pressurizing of Talibans. Had Pakistan or Afghanistan be a proper Islamic country, OBL would be tried for treason and collabortation with the infidels rather than being awarded a santury. And let not forget the relgious extremism and OBL, both were creating during the tenure of two Americas most favorite dictators aka Zia ul Haq and King Fahad Ibn Saud.

In reality, the goal was neither extradiction of OBL nor WOT, it is just some buzz word made up to fool the world.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I like your post somebozo, you raised some interesting points
what I have learnt so far is never dismiss any possibility no matter how outrageous or unbelievable. Indeed this 9/11 attack only helped the American Empire to give it a moral advantage to go after the “culprits” it decided were responsible for the atrocity.
In the bigger scheme of things loosing few thousand of its own people don’t mean much looking at the word map with the current American bases you can clearly see that USA is effectively surrouding China which it sees as its next potential rival

 

[MastanKhan]

Irfan

When OBL was let to escape at tora bora---the whole of the scenario changed within moments------. The world was looking at it in astonishment with mouths agape----but then there were others like me who were crying out for pak millitary to wake up and take charge-----.

Take out the escaping al qaeda operatives and cull them----time was of the ultimate essence------kill them all in one go and bear the brunt of a minor storm----and everything would die down in due time----.

Where the pak generals failed was being clueless to the severity of the happenings in the future----. They had no vision---. I mean to say that if you pickup any book of history and read about warfare---the first important thing that you notice is that any and every insurgency had been dealt with extremely sever by any monarch or leader right from the gitgo---wherever the control failed---the insurgency went out of control.

Case in point---swat---Musharraf let Mullah Falalullah play the game----what was Musharraf thinking----. Is that how incompetent pakistani generals are.

 

[third eye]

Apparently the fact that US being the world's sole superpower that also has used WMDs against purely civilian targets seems to be lost on you.

But it wasn't lost on former US Defense Secretary Robert McNamara who acknowledged that the Americans involved in ordering and carrying out Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing and the firebombing of Tokyo would have been tried for war crimes if the US had lost the war.

Haq's Musings: Was McNamara a War Criminal?

I think we have an issue about comprehension here.

If read, it would have have been noted that what was said is that the fact that US used nukes has no relevance to the context ( implying thereby that one did note that US is the only country to have used WMD).

What was also said is that if any other nation had the financial & military spunk they too would have done so had the situation so warranted.

 

[Vassnti]

Thank you Ifran, Mastan and All-G for the as usual insightfull posts, just when i start getting depresed about the quality of PDF you guys make me realise how worth while my time here is

 

[MastanKhan]

Apparently the fact that US being the world's sole superpower that also has used WMDs against purely civilian targets seems to be lost on you.

But it wasn't lost on former US Defense Secretary Robert McNamara who acknowledged that the Americans involved in ordering and carrying out Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing and the firebombing of Tokyo would have been tried for war crimes if the US had lost the war.

Haq's Musings: Was McNamara a War Criminal?

Mr Haq,

Sir, please----make some head or tail of what you are writing----. Could you please be a little clearer in what you want to say. Thank you.

 

[RiazHaq]

I think we have an issue about comprehension here.

If read, it would have have been noted that what was said is that the fact that US used nukes has no relevance to the context ( implying thereby that one did note that US is the only country to have used WMD).

What was also said is that if any other nation had the financial & military spunk they too would have done so had the situation so warranted.

What the situation "warranted" is the crux of the matter here....and I don't believe, nor do many others, that the situation warranted the use of nukes on purely civilian targets in not just one but two cities. Japanese military was already on its knees and it was just a matter of time before they folded.