Lockheed Receives Mission Planning Contract for Potential F-16 Sales to India, Pakistan, 21 Other Nations

[surya kiran]

nuclear thresholds

What is the nuclear threshold?

 

[Goritoes]

Well Pak can pay for the F16's but they will get soya beans instead and if you are lucky
they might even make you pay for parking them up in America.

It's all about Lobbying friend, if you lobby with powerful senators/congressmen you will get those shinny new/used F-16's, Pakistan is very important in the region for America, America understands Pakistan worth its Pakistani's who don't.

 

[Goritoes]

This outdated thinking, in my opinion. With China now in the mix, US is no longer interested in creating a “balance in the teguon.” US has targeted India has a strategic partner, tasked to be a bulwar against China.

If US was actually serious about creating a balance in South Asia, Pakistan would have received the F-16s long ago.

Nope, the US knew our militaries better than many within our countries, they know the Indian and Pakistani conventional capabilities, nukes, Airpower and Naval, they keep a sharp eye on everything, and the US for last many years has been lobbied by Indians and also poor Judgements by Pakistani' Military/Political Leadership that keep those F-16's away from Pakistan, but geopolitics change, leadership changes, and mood of countries also change, US saw this new unpredictable/Hostile/Fascists India and its ability to push the region on the brink of war, and it doesn't go well with those in Pentagon/Decision-makers, why you think that American's did nothing when Pakistan used F-16? Why do you think America didn't say a word about F-16's being used against India? why do you think Americans in Pakistan celebrated at PAF bases? If America thinks that India has tilted the power balance way too much in its favor then the US will find a way/excuse to transfer some good stuff to Pakistan, whether Pakistan has fund's or not, for the US a stable/Allied Pakistan is important for their own presence in Afghanistan/region to keep an eye on Rising China.

 

[Vapnope]

What is the nuclear threshold?

Remains undefined till this date. However Gen Kidwai laid out reasons from economic terrorism to critical military installation under attack by adversary as a reason to go red. The actual concern here is that tactical nukes are under the command of corps commander hence the uncertainty.

Sure, but eventually for India; a time will come when actions would have to be punitive

Elaborate further what you call a punitive strike or action against Pakistan.

 

[surya kiran]

Remains undefined till this date. However Gen Kidwai laid out reasons from economic terrorism to critical military installation under attack by adversary as a reason to go red. The actual concern here is that tactical nukes are under the command of corps commander hence the uncertainty.

Exactly. Now, if there were no existential threat to Pakistan and the thrusts happened across the LoC, but not across the IB, will the corps commander use a tactical nuke? With the knowledge, that the Indian response will be a full spectrum assault? Or will the response be to blunt the Indian attack by imposing losses and then trying to negotiate a return to a plausible status quo?

The answer according to the Indian thought process today, is no. And the reason for this is in the belief that the PA remains a professional force. The past actions (without getting into the debate of whether they were successful or not) of India needs to be seen in this perspective.

The Indian view, today, is that the PA will not risk mainland Pakistan for Kashmir.

 

[Vapnope]

Exactly. Now, if there were no existential threat to Pakistan and the thrusts happened across the LoC, but not across the IB, will the corps commander use a tactical nuke? With the knowledge, that the Indian response will be a full spectrum assault? Or will the response be to blunt the Indian attack by imposing losses and then trying to negotiate a return to a plausible status quo?

The answer according to the Indian thought process today, is no. And the reason for this is in the belief that the PA remains a professional force. The past actions (without getting into the debate of whether they were successful or not) of India needs to be seen in this perspective.

The Indian view, today, is that the PA will not risk mainland Pakistan for Kashmir.

I can tell you that the idea that Pakistan thinks Kashmir different than mainland Pakistan is the reason why this makes it very uncertain. Any miscalculation from either side can have disastrous impact on the region.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Exactly. Now, if there were no existential threat to Pakistan and the thrusts happened across the LoC, but not across the IB, will the corps commander use a tactical nuke? With the knowledge, that the Indian response will be a full spectrum assault? Or will the response be to blunt the Indian attack by imposing losses and then trying to negotiate a return to a plausible status quo?

The answer according to the Indian thought process today, is no. And the reason for this is in the belief that the PA remains a professional force. The past actions (without getting into the debate of whether they were successful or not) of India needs to be seen in this perspective.

The Indian view, today, is that the PA will not risk mainland Pakistan for Kashmir.

Pakistan has enough nukes to wipe india of the face of the planet forever. Pakistan doesn't JUST have tactical nukes only. Pakistan even has had thermonuclear capability since at least early 2011:

Pakistan Doubling Rate of Making Nuclear Weapons: Time for Pakistan to Reverse Course | Institute for Science and International Security

ISIS is a non-profit, non-partisan institution providing public knowledge of nuclear proliferation and international security.

isis-online.org

This is the reason india can't mess with Pakistan despite being more than 7× bigger than Pakistan and having the full backing of the West and Russia.

india will not risk being annihilated and wiped off the face of the universe for the sake of annexing Azad Kashmir.

 

[surya kiran]

I can tell you that the idea that Pakistan thinks Kashmir different than mainland Pakistan is the reason why this makes it very uncertain. Any miscalculation from either side can have disastrous impact on the region.

Agreed. But herein lies the problem.

Till date, the nuclear pistol arguement has worked beautifully for Pakistan. The escalation matrix has now been moved up. And this has happened in swipes at the edges, not a deep cut.

For e.g, again without getting into whether true or false and effective or not.

a. Cross border land strike.
Here, India claims to have crossed the line of control with a limited force. Again remember I am not getting into the effectiveness or reality of what happened. This messaging of openly admitting was impossible earlier. The PA could now claim, no such thing happened and everything calmed down. Both sides tom tomed their story line. But, here there was a nudge up the escalation matrix.

Most knowledgeable people will admit these small cross border skirmishes keep happening all the time. The difference was in the scale and admission.

b. Air space strike
Here, India claims to have crossed the LoC and struck across the IB. Pakistan responded the next day. Again, whether it hit target, did not hit target, did anybody die is immaterial. The escalation happened by India. The claims were made by India. Claims were made by Pakistan. Here again, there was a nudge up the escalation matrix.

c. 370.
Abrogation of article 370, basically says we don't care now for what anyone thinks or what the UN wants. This was the deep strike according to me, not the above 2. But, because it happened on this side of the LoC, nothing could be done. If the PA had mobilised for war here, it would have been a sign of intent. Or had the PA made aggressive maneouvering, on the ground not diplomatically, things would have meant something.

The above have already happened. Now let us get out of the Kashmir region. Limited armoured thrust by India into the Rajasthan desert area. India occupies barren desert and takes over few villages and stops the push and consolidates. Will this trigger a nuclear response? India pushes across the Shakargarh bulge and stops. Will this elicit a response? The answers according the Indian strategic planners is no.

Again, I say this. There is a change in the mindset of strategic planners in India. And this has nothing to do with BJP/Congress. If you read Pax Indica by Shashi Tharoor this is more evident. While he does not find faults with Indian intervention in the neighborhood, he makes a case for forwarding multi-alignment.

And I have made this argument before in another forum. India policy makers of today are post 1990 people. They have not seen or experienced the pre liberalization era. They are not chained by the non alignment policies of before. The top bureaucrats of today came in through the Punjab, Assam and Kashmir insurgency period. They have seen the might of the Indian forces in crushing these. The mid level bureaucrats have seen the opportunities of globalization and an aggressive policy in fighting for space. Across all spectrum of life in India.

These crop of policy makers are not going to be driven by idealism but hard facts. And herein lies the conundrum. In this calculation, the mad man is no longer Pakistani Army. PA is a calculating sane man, realising its own drawbacks and making calculating moves.

Pakistan has enough nukes to wipe india of the face of the planet forever. Pakistan doesn't JUST have tactical nukes only. Pakistan even has had thermonuclear capability since at least early 2011:

Pakistan Doubling Rate of Making Nuclear Weapons: Time for Pakistan to Reverse Course | Institute for Science and International Security

ISIS is a non-profit, non-partisan institution providing public knowledge of nuclear proliferation and international security.

isis-online.org

This is the reason india can't mess with Pakistan despite being more than 7× bigger than Pakistan and having the full backing of the West and Russia.

india will not risk being annihilated and wiped off the face of the universe for the sake of annexing Azad Kashmir.

The folly and mistake you make, is to assume we want Pakistan to stop existing. Better the PA deal with the mad mullahs to your west, than our army. Pakistan is our buffer from the nutjobs of the Middle East. More specically the PA.

 

[Areesh]

Again, I say this. There is a change in the mindset of strategic planners in India. And this has nothing to do with BJP/Congress.

Lol it has everything to do with BJP

It was a drama to get votes in elections. Winning elections was the goal

40 CRPF boys and 6 boys of IAF MI17 were just an opportunity cost for BJP and whatever "strategic planners" were behind the aerial attack

No wonder India didn't retaliate after losing 1 aircraft, losing face, 1 MI17 helicopter and 6 men because it got what it achieved. Victory in elections. Modi media was enough to make who balakot strike and abhinandan equivalent to Omaha beach landing

BJP effectively used that media to sell its failed strikes. No need to retaliate to Pakistani strikes when media is doing its job of fooling masses who would in the end vote for BJP

 

[surya kiran]

Lol it has everything to do with BJP

It was a drama to get votes in elections. Winning elections was the goal

40 CRPF boys and 6 boys of IAF MI17 were just an opportunity cost for BJP and whatever "strategic planners" were behind the aerial attack

No wonder India didn't retaliate after losing 1 aircraft, losing face, 1 MI17 helicopter and 6 men because it got what it achieved. Victory in elections. Modi media was enough to make who balakot strike and abhinandan equivalent to Omaha beach landing

BJP effectively used that media to sell its failed strikes. No need to retaliate to Pakistani strikes when media is doing its job of fooling masses who would in the end vote for BJP

You are welcome to your opinion of course and believe what you want. But, you will find the Congress will be no different. They will be more flowery about it. That's all.

I suggest you read Pax Indica. By Shashi Tharoor. Congressman. ex MEA and diplomat. Your misconceptions will be quickly removed. India has been most intrusive with its neighbourhood under the Congress. You do not wish to read history, not my problem.

 

[Areesh]

You are welcome to your opinion of course and believe what you want. But, you will find the Congress will be no different. They will be more flowery about it. That's all.

I suggest you read Pax Indica. By Shashi Tharoor. Congressman. ex MEA and diplomat. Your misconceptions will be quickly removed. India has been most intrusive with its neighbourhood under the Congress. You do not wish the read history, not my problem.

Pakistan owned the escalation ladder at all instances. Whether it was those surgical strike drama of 2016 or Balakot strikes

Pakistan was ahead in escalation at all instances and showed that it won't step back in face of any military aggression

Yeah you can f*ck up your constitution by removing articles from it. We never accepted your constitution or its articles so that doesn't matter for us.


PS: Do a research. Count all the Indian soldiers killed in cross border firing under "soft PM" man mohan singh in 10 years and then compare that to 7 years of Modi. The result would tell you why all the "tough and new India" image is just for domestic consumption

 

[chama]

Answer is in j10c ! Flexibility in choosing and sharing range of weapon packages

Because there is no shame in accepting that F-16 block 70/V is way ahead of JF-17 Block 3 or even 4. F-16 is a proven platform and it's the top reason why IAF was kept on the bay for all these years, and even in swift Retort, it was F-16's that scores the kill. JF's are good for Quantity which comes with decent Quality as well but when it comes to F-16's V or BLK 70's they are no match, and if PAF can get 18-36 of F-16V to create a balance in the region with upcoming Rafale, IAF will think 10 times before using their new French toys against Pakistan.

 

[surya kiran]

Pakistan owned the escalation ladder at all instances. Whether it was those surgical strike drama of 2016 or Balakot strikes

Pakistan was ahead in escalation at all instances and showed that it won't step back in face of any military aggression

Yeah you can f*ck up your constitution by removing articles from it. We never accepted your constitution or its articles so that doesn't matter for us.


PS: Do a research. Count all the Indian soldiers killed in cross border firing under "soft PM" man mohan singh in 10 years and then compare that to 7 years of Modi. The result would tell you why all the "tough and new India" image is just for domestic consumption

Its called missing the forest for the trees and jumping in without understanding what the discssion was about. Have a good time.

 

[Areesh]

Its called missing the forest for the trees and jumping in without understanding what the discssion was about. Have a good time.

Do message me when you capture so called P O K for which Amit Shah was willing to give his life in your parliament

 

[surya kiran]

Do message me when you capture so called P O K for which Amit Shah was willing to give his life in your parliament

Sabse pehle tujhko he bataoonga. dont worry.