Lessons from Saudi Arabia

[Zibago]

Only a knowledgeable scholar with credibility and piousness is allowed to practice ijtihad. The basic teachings of Islam i.e halal and haram though can never be challenged by ijtihad,(pork, homosexuality, fornication, alcohol were haram and cannot be declared halal which that person did), only new problems can be dealt using ijtihad.
An ex-commie liberal drunkard who I was referring to in my post (A.Haider) has no authority to declare halal or haram which has been agreed upon by the Ummah through Ijma for centuries through scholastic debates and validated by evidence from Quran and Sunnah.
A Muslim state is responsible for the enforcement of certain laws as per the Quran and Sunnah and that cannot be changed in order to "fit into" the "modern world". These guiding principles are based on sound logic and are beneficial for the society as a whole. Allowing degeneracy to seep in in the name of "modernism" will do no good to a civilized society, the red line has to be drawn.
I am not defending the KSA of the past, it was the other extreme. But there has to be law and order as per the guidance of Islam if we want to remain a relatively healthy society. There are now many white people who are complaining about the declining white race and the increasing number of Muslims....why complain when you prefer to live with single boyfriends/girlfriends and prefer to not have babies? Once you allow one form of degeneracy in the name of tolerance, the whole society starts to rot.

Give example of a surviving and thriving Muslim 100% theocratic Islamic state outside of conceptual stages which we should emulate or try to as our past experiments failed to create such a state ended up giving us a brutal dictatorship where rights were trampeled

 

[GumNaam]

wait, Ghazali said that?
I thought Ghazali was an intelligent lad

Yes he did...

 

[Zibago]

Yes he did...

Mongols werent the only reason for demise of Muslims

 

[Psychic]

Reference from sahih hadith pls. I also heard that hazrat AyshaRA was 9 when she was married. Although not sure about this!

These people do not believe in sahi hadith, narrated by AyeshaRA herself. These hypocrites only believe what soothes their own desires and preferences. see my post I provided a sahih hadith to back up my claim.
They do not even know what is the criteria which has been fulfilled for a hadith to have it declared as sahih.

Dude, he wont accept books written by these scholars since they don't serve his purpose, so the scholars you mentioned are nothing and the scholars he mentions are everything because they serve his purpose! And besides... you are asking him to do math... ' imam ghazali say that numbers are a work of the devil so don't give him numbers... gives them headaches!

What scholars?
There are narrations by none other than AyeshaRA herself which prove otherwise. But since according to you hadith are less reliable than some scholars, just because in your opinion 9 is too young for marriage even back in those days.
Do you even know what a Sahih hadith means? It means that it has a reliable chain of narrators to back it up, not someone making up numbers out of thin air. There was a strict criterion which was to be fulfilled when those ahadith were written. The ahadith which are dai'f are declared already, you have got no right whatsoever to reject any hadith which doesn't float your boat.
I have a sahih hadith to back up my claim on which there is ijma of Ummah, not some apologist scholars from 1992 or 1933, what is the source of their claims, can they provide a sahih hadith or a reference to back up those claims or is it based on weak narrations? It is evidently not clear in the copy-paste post of your side-kick. Please go to those books mentioned by your friend and go to the bibliography or reference section and provide an evidence in the form of sahih hadith.
What I did was that I brought a sahih hadith, and what you did was brought a book written by someone in 1992. What are the sources of the claims made in those books are unclear.

Give example of a surviving and thriving Muslim 100% theocratic Islamic state outside of conceptual stages which we should emulate or try to as our past experiments failed to create such a state ended up giving us a brutal dictatorship where rights were trampeled

I am not a history teacher. All the great Islamic empires/ Caliphates/Kingdoms were basically Islamic and were governed by the enforcement of Islamic punishments on crimes mentioned in Quran.
The example of Umar, Abu Bakr and Usman RA . Umar bin Abdul Aziz, Abdul Rehman of Cordoba. The cities of Baghdad , Istanbul, Cordoba are some of the examples. (Not all of them were kings).

 

[Zibago]

These people do not believe in sahi hadith, narrated by AyeshaRA herself. These hypocrites only believe what soothes their own desires and preferences. see my post I provided a sahih hadith to back up my claim.
They do not even know what is the criteria which has been fulfilled for a hadith to have it declared as sahih.

What scholars?
There are narrations by none other than AyeshaRA herself which prove otherwise. But since according to you hadith are less reliable than some scholars, just because in your opinion 9 is too young for marriage even back in those days.
Do you even know what a Sahih hadith means? It means that it has a reliable chain of narrators to back it up, not someone making up numbers out of thin air. There was a strict criterion which was to be fulfilled when those ahadith were written. The ahadith which are dai'f are declared already, you have got no right whatsoever to reject any hadith which doesn't float your boat.
I have a sahih hadith to back up my claim on which there is ijma of Ummah, not some apologist scholars from 1992 or 1933, what is the source of their claims, can they provide a sahih hadith or a reference to back up those claims or is it based on weak narrations? It is evidently not clear in the copy-paste post of your side-kick. Please go to those books mentioned by your friend and go to the bibliography or reference section and provide an evidence in the form of sahih hadith.
What I did was that I brought a sahih hadith, and what you did was brought a book written by someone in 1992. What are the sources of the claims made in those books are unclear.

I am not a history teacher. All the great Islamic empires/ Caliphates/Kingdoms were basically Islamic and were governed by the enforcement of Islamic punishments on crimes mentioned in Quran.
The example of Umar, Abu Bakr and Usman RA . Umar bin Abdul Aziz, Abdul Rehman of Cordoba. The cities of Baghdad , Istanbul, Cordoba are some of the examples. (Not all of them were kings).

I am talking about a democratic example from the 21st century that is theocratic yet thriving

 

[Psychic]

Mongols werent the only reason for demise of Muslims

It's the job of generals and rulers to fight and job of scientists to develop weapons. By blaming ulema for that demise, you are only deluding yourself.
For each of the so called ulema who are against scientific development, there are many more who encourage it but do not get any air-time on media.

 

[Zibago]

It's the job of generals and rulers to fight and job of scientists to develop weapons. By blaming ulema for that demise, you are only deluding yourself.
For each of the so called ulema who are against scientific development, there are many more who encourage it but do not get any air-time on media.

I agree ignore opinion of ulemas on all non religious matters and our society will prosper: D

Ulema and science haha most ulema believe moon landing is fake and its kufar to believe it

 

[Psychic]

I am talking about a democratic example from the 21st century that is theocratic yet thriving

There are two major theocratic states in 21st century. Iran and KSA.
All other are either nationalistic, semi-Islamic(like Pakistan) or secular Muslim countries.
The reasons for demise are not in Islam though but other things like corruption, mismanagement, lack of foresight among the leaders and exploitation by outside powers.

I agree ignore opinion of ulemas on all non religious matters and our society will prosper: D

Ulema and science haha most ulema believe moon landing is fake and its kufar to believe it

Those people don't deserve to be called ulema. There are many ulema who encourage scientific developments, but basically it's not their job to invent things as their expertise is else where. In theology and philosophy. Not in science.

 

[Zibago]

There are two major theocratic states in 21st century. Iran and KSA.
All other are either nationalistic, semi-Islamic(like Pakistan) or secular Muslim countries.
The reasons for demise are not in Islam though but other things like corruption, mismanagement, lack of foresight among the leaders and exploitation by outside powers.

And both these countries bend laws to mould their countries in the 21st century canvas

All experiments of Mullahs gave us brutal regimes be it Afghanistan,Nigeria or ISIL a theocratic state just wont work no matter how bad you want it to

There are two major theocratic states in 21st century. Iran and KSA.
All other are either nationalistic, semi-Islamic(like Pakistan) or secular Muslim countries.
The reasons for demise are not in Islam though but other things like corruption, mismanagement, lack of foresight among the leaders and exploitation by outside powers.


Those people don't deserve to be called ulema. There are many ulema who encourage scientific developments, but basically it's not their job to invent things as their expertise is else where. In theology and philosophy. Not in science.

Yeah but those Mullahs are outliers you have no idea how strong the opposition to just introduction of Math and Science in Madrassas was in Pakistan do you really think they could be trusted?

 

[Psychic]

consummation of marriage at 9 with The Holy Prophet pbuh who would never do anything against The Quran!

Yeah whatever you prefer is not in the Quran. When someone reaches puberty, he/she is allowed to marry regardless of the age. period!

 

[Centaur]

^
The above was as senseless as it could go.

I am not someone who clings to his views if he's proven wrong. I am ready to go on backfoot if there's solid evidence that Ayesha's Nikkah wasn't held when she was 6. However , the Rukhsati at 9 or 14 depending on which tradition you accept is something which is undisputed.


I am not going to have a debate with an ignorant like you.
Prophet SAW died in 632. Ayesha was born in 613/14. So Ayesha as per you was married when Muhammad SAW was in his death bed?

@Jf Thunder @GumNaam
https://muflihun.com/bukhari/62/64

Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Classification
Sahih


References
al-Bukhari Book of Marriage #64
al-Bukhari 5133
Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 64
Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 7, Book of Marriage, Hadith 64

Link
Page: https://muflihun.com/bukhari/62/64
Embed Code

@Desert Fox @Nilgiri

Well since this is a reference from sahih AL bukhari, so that's final. No reason to disbelief it for any muslim.
Thank you for this reference .
@Psychic

 

[Psychic]

Yeah but those Mullahs are outliers you have no idea how strong the opposition to just introduction of Math and Science in Madrassas was in Pakistan do you really think they could be trusted?

That was a recent phenomenon, back in earlier days it wasn't the case. Again it depends upon the intensity of those subjects.
Now if I am studying fine arts, you wont be forcing calculus and chemistry on me, will you? The same way the Islamiat taught in schools/colleges is a much diluted version of what is taught in madrassas. A balance has to be maintained I agree and madrassas should also start modernizing.
There are many ulemas who don't oppose such measures but unfortunately, they do not get the lime light because the new fashion is to bash the evil backward molvi for everything including one's own failures.

 

[jamahir]

But its also true that many of those these voluntery burqa wearers have been groomed in such a way from a very tender age that when they get older it becomes almost impossible for them to leave that particular attire.

Exactly !!

 

[El Sidd]

Enndians, Pakistanis and Bongladeshis trying to understand Islam NOW !!

hahaha

 

[Psychic]

And both these countries bend laws to mould their countries in the 21st century canvas

All experiments of Mullahs gave us brutal regimes be it Afghanistan,Nigeria or ISIL a theocratic state just wont work no matter how bad you want it to

Mullah regime or theocratic regime =/= Islamic state.
ISIL has been rejected by vast majority of the ulema themselves. Molvis are not supposed to run a state in any case, a decent honest and foresighted person with a sound knowledge of both deen and duniya is.