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Lessons for Pakistanis - Brazilians want military takeover & Americans civil war

It provides you and your family a home, security, it provides you the freedom to express yourself, it has provided you with a nation.

Please Judge yourself based on reality, not perceptions. Go and look at other Muslims in South Asia, I know you are better off in every way.
Your taxes do not stand alone, they are part of the collection that came before you,
That country of yours had nothing in 1947.
Please, for a moment think what is a country, it doesn't exist in thin air, there are requirements that need to be fulfilled to have a functioning state, which can provide essential security and services to it's citizens.

In 1947, India had everything intact, they literally just swapped chairs.
they had a mature industrial base,
their first steel plant was built around 1900,
they had over a dozen modern armament factories from the 1800's onwards,
they had a modern ship building industry started in early 1800's,
their nuclear program was started around 1945 I think, by 1947 even their nuclear program had an existing basis,
India was in the top 10 economies in the world in 1947, possible number 11 but it was in the top ranks even then,
They had research institutions,
No refugee problem as such, the refugees they received amounted to about 2% of the population, that's nothing. The Afghans we received in the 1980s were 4% of Pakistan's population.
I could go on but my point is made, it was a fully functioning state, ready to go, combine that with large numbers of effective national leaders, and the father of the nation Nehru lived for 17 years to guide their nation.

In contrast, Pakistan had this,
Two equal sized units separated by 3000kms of hostile territory,
virtually no national leadership, Jinnah sahib died after the first year and the only other capable Liaqat sahib murdered within 4 years, by an Afghan, possibly with foreign support, my personal believe is India and Afghanistan collusion because they had the most to gain.

No industrial base at all, except few small light industrial units,
refugees that amounted to almost 25% of the population, think for a moment, 25%, that amounts to today India accepting 300 million refugees at once, America accepting almost 80 million refugees at once, Germany accepting almost 20 million, these countries would collapse overnight.
But your nation, your country, your people managed without any resources, that's what your taxes, your energy and your love has achieved, tell me that's nothing.
Pakistan had only half a university, university of Punjab had two campuses, one in Lahore, the other in East Punjab, so only half a university in the entire country with around 700 total enrolled university students in the whole of Pakistan, today you have well over 2 million I think, that's what your taxes have achieved, you are part of that overall system, you can cry, but it has delivered.
Pakistan today has a nascent industrial base, which only requires a period of peace to flourish, it cannot flourish if you continue infighting and crying about everything under the sun.

You are a developing nation, still on a journey, it's not suppose to be easy, it is not going to be easy, but you have to carry that burden, you can do that by crying all the time, or accept the fact things are not perfect, but I will play my part.
You had no banks, no central bank, it is important,
you had no capital city
no organised civil service,
no organised armed forces to defend you, can you imagine how difficult that is?
America the most powerful nation in history and the richest, together with NATO the most powerful military alliance in history spent tens of billions building and training an Afghan army, they were supremely confident they had done a good job. it did not last a week without their active support.

Your military defended you from day one,
without their share of the weapons, without an organised command structure, without high number of top tier officers, without defined borders, your country did not even know where the border was till I think 17th of August, but they fought a war within months of formation and defended YOUR nation, holding on to 1/3 of Kashmir without weapons and money, just jazba, where is yours? don't insult their sacrifices.

The first address to the nation by Jinnah sahib could not be recorded till we had the required radio equipment, it had to be bought from Delhi, that's how less you had, the original recording was taken back to Delhi, only after numerous request it was given many decades later.

I could go on and on
the civil servants we complaint about, use to write with pens made out of thorns, yaar if only you guys knew the sacrifices, the efforts put into giving you this beautiful nation, if only you knew how much has been achieved.

Sadly this country has fallen into the habit of being constantly ungrateful,
bas hum he gunaghar hein, only we are the sinners, and the world is in heavenly peace, the biggest bullcrap I've heard in my life but every Pakistani is stuck in that mindset.

Your taxes, and all that came before has achieved far far more then you recognise, please don't be ungrateful.
Fight your fight, the country belongs to you, hate individuals if they follow the wrong policies, be it in the government, army or whoever, but take care before you blame institutions, because you throw stones at your own house, at your own family.
Absolutely true. Thank you ! for summing up. :smitten: :smitten: :pakistan:
 
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Since you have made ur opinion you cannot make other also agree with you by showing urself a privileged. Or by giving example from ur life does not mean it applies to everyone.

I am not making you agree to anything, you are being stubbornly arrogant. You think anything that comes out of you has value even if you provide no justifications, that's arrogance.

I gave reasons for my opinions, you provided nothing but complaints, no reasons, no justifications, no nothing, there's a difference.

My life examples were not part my arguments, I provided that at the end of nearly a dozen replies, during which I provided justified reasons multiple times, all you gave multiple times are new complaints without reasons, without basis.

You are arrogant if you think both have the same value, you cannot utter stuff without justifications, and expect people to take you seriously.
I couldn't care less what you believe, believe what you want, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to provide justifications, the world doesn't revolve around inside your head.

Go bother someone else, I don't want to deal with the likes of you. I tried to be civil multiple times, but you refuse to accept a conclusion to this discussion.

The only lessons Pakistanis need now more than ever can be found in this little book:

View attachment 898239
View attachment 898240

One morning, when Nanji Jafar was playing in the street, Jinnah, then aged about fourteen, came up to him and said, "Don't play marbles in the dust; it spoils your clothes and dirties your hands. We must stand up and play cricket."

The boys in Newnham Road were obedient: they gave up playing marbles and allowed Jinnah to lead them from the dusty street to a bright field where he brought his bat and stumps for them to use. When he sailed for England at the age of sixteen, he gave Nanji Jafar his bat and said, "You will go on teaching the boys to play cricket while I am away."

All Jinnah's story is in the boyhood dictum—'Stand up from the dust so that your clothes are unspoiled and your hands clean for the tasks that fall to them.'

- Hector Bolitho - Jinnah: Creator of Pakistan 1954

I tried to look for this book many years ago, it is hard to trace, and extremely expensive nowadays, I suppose there are no recent prints any more.
 
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The only lessons Pakistanis need now more than ever can be found in this little book:

View attachment 898239
View attachment 898240

One morning, when Nanji Jafar was playing in the street, Jinnah, then aged about fourteen, came up to him and said, "Don't play marbles in the dust; it spoils your clothes and dirties your hands. We must stand up and play cricket."

The boys in Newnham Road were obedient: they gave up playing marbles and allowed Jinnah to lead them from the dusty street to a bright field where he brought his bat and stumps for them to use. When he sailed for England at the age of sixteen, he gave Nanji Jafar his bat and said, "You will go on teaching the boys to play cricket while I am away."

All Jinnah's story is in the boyhood dictum—'Stand up from the dust so that your clothes are unspoiled and your hands clean for the tasks that fall to them.'

- Hector Bolitho - Jinnah: Creator of Pakistan 1954
@RescueRanger @ghazi52

An update:
I've noticed this pdf has 187 pages, but on Amazon it shows as 244 pages, I do not know the reason, but I thought I'll mention it, or if anyone else reading this message knows, please reply.
I have purchased books on amazon before which showed incorrect page count, so it could just be an error, but I thought I'll mention it.




Just looked for this book again, still hard to find and very expensive, it's around £80 in Amazon, crazy pricing.
Anyway, found a pdf copy, posting a link in case you guys are interested.

http://sanipanhwar.com/Jinnah - Creator of Pakistan by Hector Bolitho.pdf

@waz If forum rules disallow it, please let me know and I shall delete the link.


@ghazi52
 
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Can you please stick with English, your roman Urdu rubbish is barely comprehensible. I really did not understand clearly.

I get a feeling that you're an idiot, but I cannot decide until I have some clarity, so if you wouldn't mind translating then I can decide if you are an idiot or not, and respond accordingly, thank you very much.
And, please don't suck too hard, it might get stuck.

Stay blessed.
I mean there's an ignore button on my profile pic, please use it rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks.
 
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I am not making you agree to anything, you are being stubbornly arrogant. You think anything that comes out of you has value even if you provide no justifications, that's arrogance.

I gave reasons for my opinions, you provided nothing but complaints, no reasons, no justifications, no nothing, there's a difference.

My life examples were not part my arguments, I provided that at the end of nearly a dozen replies, during which I provided justified reasons multiple times, all you gave multiple times are new complaints without reasons, without basis.

You are arrogant if you think both have the same value, you cannot utter stuff without justifications, and expect people to take you seriously.
I couldn't care less what you believe, believe what you want, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to provide justifications, the world doesn't revolve around inside your head.

Go bother someone else, I don't want to deal with the likes of you. I tried to be civil multiple times, but you refuse to accept a conclusion to this discussion.



I tried to look for this book many years ago, it is hard to trace, and extremely expensive nowadays, I suppose there are no recent prints any more.

If I am sticking to my view is arrogant so are you. I never said anything to you that was uncivil. Whereas you are continously being triggered. Respect others opinions it would help u in learning. Its just an advice.
 
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I mean there's an ignore button on my profile pic, please use it rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks.

I think you meant to say, this a public forum for discussion, not useless statements that have no meaning in reality, and you will try to do better next time.

If you do not want replies, then don't reply in the first place, it's basic common sense. Engage in discussion, don't behave like a child.
Only an arrogant fool would grant himself the right to reply as he wishes, then asks the other to ignore because he did not like the reply he received.

Time for you to grow up.
 
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If I am sticking to my view is arrogant so are you. I never said anything to you that was uncivil. Whereas you are continously being triggered. Respect others opinions it would help u in learning. Its just an advice.

Understand respect before trying to preach it. You continually attacked our country, without providing any reasons, just blanket statements, I find that extremely disrespectful.

I have not gotten triggered, but I within my rights, am forcibly attacking the lies that you continually push out without providing a basis, that's not being trigged, it's demanding the other to engage in a civil discussion, not repeat like a parrot, as you have.

I have given detailed replies to your statements, in my view, that is showing respect because I am making the effort to engage by using reason and justifying my opinions with facts. You have not done the same, I find that extremely disrespectful.

I have asked you number of times to provide reasons or justifications for your statements, you have not, but continue to reply on irrelevant topic, I find that extremely rude, if you want to parrot things then perhaps it is better not engage on a discussion forum, isn't that the point of this forum to discuss ideas, and engage with others, here you have to justify your opinions.

If you don't want to provide reasons for the views in your statements, that's fine, but then stop replying, it is rude and disrespectful. You seem to think if it comes out of your mind, it is the gospel truth and the world should accept it as fact.

An opinion without justification or reason is not equal to an opinion that is given with justifications and reasons, somehow you find this basic concept hard to grasp.
 
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I think you meant to say, this a public forum for discussion, not useless statements that have no meaning in reality, and you will try to do better next time.

If you do not want replies, then don't reply in the first place, it's basic common sense. Engage in discussion, don't behave like a child.
Only an arrogant fool would grant himself the right to reply as he wishes, then asks the other to ignore because he did not like the reply he received.

Time for you to grow up.

Peagle:

I'm an intellectual:
1668862668638.png


Boohoo.
 
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Did you take that picture looking in the mirror.

Grow up, grow a pair, and learn to have a proper discussion.
You behave like an 8 year old who's got his tool stuck in a zipper, and keeps pulling rather then stopping.
You're a Bloody coward.
Is this a contest?
Because you're losing.
 
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Is this a contest?
Because you're losing.

Contest?
Seriously, are you deranged?

Apparently you think insisting on a proper discussion in a forum created for discussions is being intellectual. You need help.

You made your comment, and I made mine, somehow that has turned you sensitive. The best thing to do is to move on, if you wish to continue having a stupid discussion, that's fine by me. I'm sure I can find few second to reply one message a day for the rest of my life. It doesn't bother.


Just so you know, I usually only come here few months in a year, so if you don't get a reply from me for a long time, it doesn't mean I've gone away, it just means I am not signing on here, for the time being. But don't worry, I'll reply the next time I get a chance.

It's your choice, either we can both move on, or you can continue your stupidity.
 
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In contrast, Pakistan had this,
Two equal sized units separated by 3000kms of hostile territory,
virtually no national leadership, Jinnah sahib died after the first year and the only other capable Liaqat sahib murdered within 4 years, by an Afghan, possibly with foreign support, my personal believe is India and Afghanistan collusion because they had the most to gain.

No industrial base at all, except few small light industrial units,
refugees that amounted to almost 25% of the population, think for a moment, 25%, that amounts to today India accepting 300 million refugees at once, America accepting almost 80 million refugees at once, Germany accepting almost 20 million, these countries would collapse overnight.
But your nation, your country, your people managed without any resources, that's what your taxes, your energy and your love has achieved, tell me that's nothing.
Pakistan had only half a university, university of Punjab had two campuses, one in Lahore, the other in East Punjab, so only half a university in the entire country with around 700 total enrolled university students in the whole of Pakistan, today you have well over 2 million I think, that's what your taxes have achieved, you are part of that overall system, you can cry, but it has delivered.
Pakistan today has a nascent industrial base, which only requires a period of peace to flourish, it cannot flourish if you continue infighting and crying about everything under the sun.
I have read at quite a few places that Pakistan did very well immediately after 1947 and went ahead of India on many parameters. Infact, in first four decades they were ahead and started going down only after that. Had Pakistan remained on same the trajectory, it would have been way ahead of India.

India moved ahead only after the economic reforms implemented in the 90s.



Strong military is required, but at what cost? Dog should wag the tail. When tail starts wagging the dog then there is a reason to reanalyse.
 
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Contest?
Seriously, are you deranged?

Apparently you think insisting on a proper discussion in a forum created for discussions is being intellectual. You need help.

You made your comment, and I made mine, somehow that has turned you sensitive. The best thing to do is to move on, if you wish to continue having a stupid discussion, that's fine by me. I'm sure I can find few second to reply one message a day for the rest of my life. It doesn't bother.


Just so you know, I usually only come here few months in a year, so if you don't get a reply from me for a long time, it doesn't mean I've gone away, it just means I am not signing on here, for the time being. But don't worry, I'll reply the next time I get a chance.

It's your choice, either we can both move on, or you can continue your stupidity.
Yawn...
 
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Understand respect before trying to preach it. You continually attacked our country, without providing any reasons, just blanket statements, I find that extremely disrespectful.

I have not gotten triggered, but I within my rights, am forcibly attacking the lies that you continually push out without providing a basis, that's not being trigged, it's demanding the other to engage in a civil discussion, not repeat like a parrot, as you have.

I have given detailed replies to your statements, in my view, that is showing respect because I am making the effort to engage by using reason and justifying my opinions with facts. You have not done the same, I find that extremely disrespectful.

I have asked you number of times to provide reasons or justifications for your statements, you have not, but continue to reply on irrelevant topic, I find that extremely rude, if you want to parrot things then perhaps it is better not engage on a discussion forum, isn't that the point of this forum to discuss ideas, and engage with others, here you have to justify your opinions.

If you don't want to provide reasons for the views in your statements, that's fine, but then stop replying, it is rude and disrespectful. You seem to think if it comes out of your mind, it is the gospel truth and the world should accept it as fact.

An opinion without justification or reason is not equal to an opinion that is given with justifications and reasons, somehow you find this basic concept hard to grasp.

Keep bragging, that won't change anything.
 
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