Lessons for Pakistanis - Brazilians want military takeover & Americans civil war

[peagle]

It does not, what does it provide me against taxes I pay?

It provides you and your family a home, security, it provides you the freedom to express yourself, it has provided you with a nation.

Please Judge yourself based on reality, not perceptions. Go and look at other Muslims in South Asia, I know you are better off in every way.
Your taxes do not stand alone, they are part of the collection that came before you,
That country of yours had nothing in 1947.
Please, for a moment think what is a country, it doesn't exist in thin air, there are requirements that need to be fulfilled to have a functioning state, which can provide essential security and services to it's citizens.

In 1947, India had everything intact, they literally just swapped chairs.
they had a mature industrial base,
their first steel plant was built around 1900,
they had over a dozen modern armament factories from the 1800's onwards,
they had a modern ship building industry started in early 1800's,
their nuclear program was started around 1945 I think, by 1947 even their nuclear program had an existing basis,
India was in the top 10 economies in the world in 1947, possible number 11 but it was in the top ranks even then,
They had research institutions,
No refugee problem as such, the refugees they received amounted to about 2% of the population, that's nothing. The Afghans we received in the 1980s were 4% of Pakistan's population.
I could go on but my point is made, it was a fully functioning state, ready to go, combine that with large numbers of effective national leaders, and the father of the nation Nehru lived for 17 years to guide their nation.

In contrast, Pakistan had this,
Two equal sized units separated by 3000kms of hostile territory,
virtually no national leadership, Jinnah sahib died after the first year and the only other capable Liaqat sahib murdered within 4 years, by an Afghan, possibly with foreign support, my personal believe is India and Afghanistan collusion because they had the most to gain.

No industrial base at all, except few small light industrial units,
refugees that amounted to almost 25% of the population, think for a moment, 25%, that amounts to today India accepting 300 million refugees at once, America accepting almost 80 million refugees at once, Germany accepting almost 20 million, these countries would collapse overnight.
But your nation, your country, your people managed without any resources, that's what your taxes, your energy and your love has achieved, tell me that's nothing.
Pakistan had only half a university, university of Punjab had two campuses, one in Lahore, the other in East Punjab, so only half a university in the entire country with around 700 total enrolled university students in the whole of Pakistan, today you have well over 2 million I think, that's what your taxes have achieved, you are part of that overall system, you can cry, but it has delivered.
Pakistan today has a nascent industrial base, which only requires a period of peace to flourish, it cannot flourish if you continue infighting and crying about everything under the sun.

You are a developing nation, still on a journey, it's not suppose to be easy, it is not going to be easy, but you have to carry that burden, you can do that by crying all the time, or accept the fact things are not perfect, but I will play my part.
You had no banks, no central bank, it is important,
you had no capital city
no organised civil service,
no organised armed forces to defend you, can you imagine how difficult that is?
America the most powerful nation in history and the richest, together with NATO the most powerful military alliance in history spent tens of billions building and training an Afghan army, they were supremely confident they had done a good job. it did not last a week without their active support.

Your military defended you from day one,
without their share of the weapons, without an organised command structure, without high number of top tier officers, without defined borders, your country did not even know where the border was till I think 17th of August, but they fought a war within months of formation and defended YOUR nation, holding on to 1/3 of Kashmir without weapons and money, just jazba, where is yours? don't insult their sacrifices.

The first address to the nation by Jinnah sahib could not be recorded till we had the required radio equipment, it had to be bought from Delhi, that's how less you had, the original recording was taken back to Delhi, only after numerous request it was given many decades later.

I could go on and on
the civil servants we complaint about, use to write with pens made out of thorns, yaar if only you guys knew the sacrifices, the efforts put into giving you this beautiful nation, if only you knew how much has been achieved.

Sadly this country has fallen into the habit of being constantly ungrateful,
bas hum he gunaghar hein, only we are the sinners, and the world is in heavenly peace, the biggest bullcrap I've heard in my life but every Pakistani is stuck in that mindset.

Your taxes, and all that came before has achieved far far more then you recognise, please don't be ungrateful.
Fight your fight, the country belongs to you, hate individuals if they follow the wrong policies, be it in the government, army or whoever, but take care before you blame institutions, because you throw stones at your own house, at your own family.

 

[truthseeker2010]

It provides you and your family a home, security, it provides you the freedom to express yourself, it has provided you with a nation.

Please Judge yourself based on reality, not perceptions. Go and look at other Muslims in South Asia, I know you are better off in every way.
Your taxes do not stand alone, they are part of the collection that came before you,
That country of yours had nothing in 1947.
Please, for a moment think what is a country, it doesn't exist in thin air, there are requirements that need to be fulfilled to have a functioning state, which can provide essential security and services to it's citizens.

In 1947, India had everything intact, they literally just swapped chairs.
they had a mature industrial base,
their first steel plant was built around 1900,
they had over a dozen modern armament factories from the 1800's onwards,
they had a modern ship building industry started in early 1800's,
their nuclear program was started around 1945 I think, by 1947 even their nuclear program had an existing basis,
India was in the top 10 economies in the world in 1947, possible number 11 but it was in the top ranks even then,
They had research institutions,
No refugee problem as such, the refugees they received amounted to about 2% of the population, that's nothing. The Afghans we received in the 1980s were 4% of Pakistan's population.
I could go on but my point is made, it was a fully functioning state, ready to go, combine that with large numbers of effective national leaders, and the father of the nation Nehru lived for 17 years to guide their nation.

In contrast, Pakistan had this,
Two equal sized units separated by 3000kms of hostile territory,
virtually no national leadership, Jinnah sahib died after the first year and the only other capable Liaqat sahib murdered within 4 years, by an Afghan, possibly with foreign support, my personal believe is India and Afghanistan collusion because they had the most to gain.

No industrial base at all, except few small light industrial units,
refugees that amounted to almost 25% of the population, think for a moment, 25%, that amounts to today India accepting 300 million refugees at once, America accepting almost 80 million refugees at once, Germany accepting almost 20 million, these countries would collapse overnight.
But your nation, your country, your people managed without any resources, that's what your taxes, your energy and your love has achieved, tell me that's nothing.
Pakistan had only half a university, university of Punjab had two campuses, one in Lahore, the other in East Punjab, so only half a university in the entire country with around 700 total enrolled university students in the whole of Pakistan, today you have well over 2 million I think, that's what your taxes have achieved, you are part of that overall system, you can cry, but it has delivered.
Pakistan today has a nascent industrial base, which only requires a period of peace to flourish, it cannot flourish if you continue infighting and crying about everything under the sun.

You are a developing nation, still on a journey, it's not suppose to be easy, it is not going to be easy, but you have to carry that burden, you can do that by crying all the time, or accept the fact things are not perfect, but I will play my part.
You had no banks, no central bank, it is important,
you had no capital city
no organised civil service,
no organised armed forces to defend you, can you imagine how difficult that is?
America the most powerful nation in history and the richest, together with NATO the most powerful military alliance in history spent tens of billions building and training an Afghan army, they were supremely confident they had done a good job. it did not last a week without their active support.

Your military defended you from day one,
without their share of the weapons, without an organised command structure, without high number of top tier officers, without defined borders, your country did not even know where the border was till I think 17th of August, but they fought a war within months of formation and defended YOUR nation, holding on to 1/3 of Kashmir without weapons and money, just jazba, where is yours? don't insult their sacrifices.

The first address to the nation by Jinnah sahib could not be recorded till we had the required radio equipment, it had to be bought from Delhi, that's how less you had, the original recording was taken back to Delhi, only after numerous request it was given many decades later.

I could go on and on
the civil servants we complaint about, use to write with pens made out of thorns, yaar if only you guys knew the sacrifices, the efforts put into giving you this beautiful nation, if only you knew how much has been achieved.

Sadly this country has fallen into the habit of being constantly ungrateful,
bas hum he gunaghar hein, only we are the sinners, and the world is in heavenly peace, the biggest bullcrap I've heard in my life but every Pakistani is stuck in that mindset.

Your taxes, and all that came before has achieved far far more then you recognise, please don't be ungrateful.
Fight your fight, the country belongs to you, hate individuals if they follow the wrong policies, be it in the government, army or whoever, but take care before you blame institutions, because you throw stones at your own house, at your own family.

Security I get snatched everyday on gun point. Whom should I complain? to police who does not even move without bribing. Same is the case with health justice and education.

You need a reality check rather than reading history. Since there are many countries who got independence after pak with the same standing but are now way ahead.

 

[RealNapster]

I don't pretend to be something I'm not, you talk like you hold the wisdom of the world between your ears

Hay man. Never claimed anything. Just a nose and two eyes between my ears which I use to smell idiotic farts and see obvious hypocrisies.

 

[KAL-EL]

Both was started by fringe elements as a sort of coping mechanism after losing the elections.
Bolsonoro and Trump are big cry babies who just want attention and their far right supporters are crazy enough to believe what they spout.

^^This ×100

 

[Enigma SIG]

Your military defended you from day one,
without their share of the weapons, without an organised command structure, without high number of top tier officers, without defined borders, your country did not even know where the border was till I think 17th of August, but they fought a war within months of formation and defended YOUR nation, holding on to 1/3 of Kashmir without weapons and money, just jazba, where is yours? don't insult their sacrifices.

Where do we put our thanks for **** Army ramming our bunds since the day we were born? Now that wo bukhar utar gia hai un ka (shyd, Baby Bhutto can tell aj kal nazar nai ara shyd chala nai ja raha us se) ab buddhe senators ki lullian dekhne ka shoq charh gia hai in ko.

Trick Question: What does **** Army have on Biden by the way?

 

[peagle]

Where do we put our thanks for **** Army ramming our bunds since the day we were born? Now that wo bukhar utar gia hai un ka (shyd, Baby Bhutto can tell aj kal nazar nai ara shyd chala nai ja raha us se) ab buddhe senators ki lullian dekhne ka shoq charh gia hai in ko.

Trick Question: What does **** Army have on Biden by the way?

Can you please stick with English, your roman Urdu rubbish is barely comprehensible. I really did not understand clearly.

I get a feeling that you're an idiot, but I cannot decide until I have some clarity, so if you wouldn't mind translating then I can decide if you are an idiot or not, and respond accordingly, thank you very much.
And, please don't suck too hard, it might get stuck.

Stay blessed.

 

[peagle]

Hay man. Never claimed anything. Just a nose and two eyes between my ears which I use to smell idiotic farts and see obvious hypocrisies.

There you go, nothing but personal attacks, because that thing between your ears, and behind your nose and eyes has nothing except vile excrement, try growing a proper brain cell or two, you might come out with something worthwhile, rather then pretending to be cleaver, don't pretend, just be.

 

[313ghazi]

Nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but Brazil had an election and just elected a left wing government. No military takeover. They removed their shit government and didn't need and self declared saviours.

 

[peagle]

Security I get snatched everyday on gun point. Whom should I complain? to police who does not even move without bribing. Same is the case with health justice and education.

You need a reality check rather than reading history. Since there are many countries who got independence after pak with the same standing but are now way ahead.

Firstly, I would like to apologise for the late response, I had not signed in for a while and I only get notifications when I sign into PDF, all my email notifications are switched off.


Secondly, I really cannot let this pass, previously I suggested that you should change your username, now I strongly recommended that you should change your user name to fantasyseeker2010 or fantasypeddler2010. Truthseeker does not suit you.

This discussion has continued over two threads, you have done nothing but cry and whine like a little brat who can only come out with accusations and statements without the need to back up what you say.
My responses have been thorough, and relevant, if history is relevant it will be included, just as much as the present. You never counter what I say but come out with more irrelevant bullsh.t you seriously need to grow the heck up.

Who the F do you think you are talking with? I am Pakistani by birth, most of my extended family is still based in Pakistan, do you think I am unaware? you Pakistanis are a bunch of fools who can't see beyond your nose and go about preaching crap you have no idea about, go learn about the world before attempting to preach your rubbish.

How old are you? let's take a middle of the road answer, I'll assume 30, that's around 10950 days, so you have been snatched 10950 days, how the F are you still alive, you should be dead by now, or am I communicating with a ghost?

I am in my middle age, and in all my life I have only heard of one possibly two kidnappings within my extended circle, and few robberies, I have known people from almost every part of Pakistan. Do you think such things do not happen in other countries? even in developed countries? Grow the heck up and talk some sense, this is simply idiotic.
Each country has their distinct set of problems, and in developing countries those problems can be harder to resolve when they arise, but that's life, it's the same in every other country in the world, Pakistan is not a special case, and don't present it as such. Pitiful.
In every country, some areas have more crime then other areas, that's nothing unusual, nothing to cry about like a little brat.

Suppose you tell me which countries have done better then Pakistan, now, don't be child and point fingers, present valid arguments, look at the realties as they exist, proper comparison, not pick and choose your own version of reality, everything matters.

If you want to pick and choose facts then go and tell your parents to sod off, they gave you birth for their own selfish reasons, you don't owe them anything. Every relationship and situation can be ripped apart to it's bare ugliness, only when you decide to ignore history and all other realities.
Everything that's relevant matters.
Once you start to pick and choose interpretations that suit your needs, it amounts to lying, that a shameless approach.

Read what I said and give me a proper reply, not crying and throwing tantrums like a child, reply properly or go bother someone else.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Firstly, I would like to apologise for the late response, I had not signed in for a while and I only get notifications when I sign into PDF, all my email notifications are switched off.


Secondly, I really cannot let this pass, previously I suggested that you should change your username, now I strongly recommended that you should change your user name to fantasyseeker2010 or fantasypeddler2010. Truthseeker does not suit you.

This discussion has continued over two threads, you have done nothing but cry and whine like a little brat who can only come out with accusations and statements without the need to back up what you say.
My responses have been thorough, and relevant, if history is relevant it will be included, just as much as the present. You never counter what I say but come out with more irrelevant bullsh.t you seriously need to grow the heck up.

Who the F do you think you are talking with? I am Pakistani by birth, most of my extended family is still based in Pakistan, do you think I am unaware? you Pakistanis are a bunch of fools who can't see beyond your nose and go about preaching crap you have no idea about, go learn about the world before attempting to preach your rubbish.

How old are you? let's take a middle of the road answer, I'll assume 30, that's around 10950 days, so you have been snatched 10950 days, how the F are you still alive, you should be dead by now, or am I communicating with a ghost?

I am in my middle age, and in all my life I have only heard of one possibly two kidnappings within my extended circle, and few robberies, I have known people from almost every part of Pakistan. Do you think such things do not happen in other countries? even in developed countries? Grow the heck up and talk some sense, this is simply idiotic.
Each country has their distinct set of problems, and in developing countries those problems can be harder to resolve when they arise, but that's life, it's the same in every other country in the world, Pakistan is not a special case, and don't present it as such. Pitiful.
In every country, some areas have more crime then other areas, that's nothing unusual, nothing to cry about like a little brat.

Suppose you tell me which countries have done better then Pakistan, now, don't be child and point fingers, present valid arguments, look at the realties as they exist, proper comparison, not pick and choose your own version of reality, everything matters.

If you want to pick and choose facts then go and tell your parents to sod off, they gave you birth for their own selfish reasons, you don't owe them anything. Every relationship and situation can be ripped apart to it's bare ugliness, only when you decide to ignore history and all other realities.
Everything that's relevant matters.
Once you start to pick and choose interpretations that suit your needs, it amounts to lying, that a shameless approach.

Read what I said and give me a proper reply, not crying and throwing tantrums like a child, reply properly or go bother someone else.

I don't want to bother neither want to preach. You have your own perception of Pakistan. I have mine neither of us can change the reality.

 

[peagle]

I don't want to bother neither want to preach. You have your own perception of Pakistan. I have mine neither of us can change the reality.

There's only one reality, one truth, one needs to be brave to see things as they are, not how you wish to see them.
I sincerely wish you well, but I am sick of self loathing Pakistanis who are unable to argue their complaints, and only see Pakistan through a narrow prism, and refuse to apply the same yardstick to the rest of the world.

Stay blessed.

 

[truthseeker2010]

There's only one reality, one truth, one needs to be brave to see things as they are, not how you wish to see them.
I sincerely wish you well, but I am sick of self loathing Pakistanis who are unable to argue their complaints, and only see Pakistan through a narrow prism, and refuse to apply the same yardstick to the rest of the world.

Stay blessed.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[peagle]

Let's agree to disagree.

I'm sorry but that cannot be, you objected, you complained, it is extremely unfair not to provide justifications, and close the discussion on the assumption your views are equal, that equality only applies once justifications for those opinions are provided. I have provided valid justifications, valid points, I have gone far above mere opinions.

You can choose to stop replying, that's your choice, but it cannot be on the basis of agreeing to disagree, that says both points had equal value.

I can agree to end this discussion as is, not on basis of having different realties or agreeing to disagree, that's a lame copout.

I sincerely wish that you find your peace, and I am sure you have basis for your complaints, but please understand, Brother, there is a world out there that's just as messed up, if not more so.

I have been reading crap about the world since I was a teenager, visited around 20 countries, done detailed research on another dozen, countries I planned on visiting but didn't for one reason or another, visited over 50 cities in my lifetime. Over the years my circle of friends have consisted of people from every single continent. When I say Pakistan is not bad as you people make it out to be, I have a basis for saying so, not just opinions.

 

[truthseeker2010]

I'm sorry but that cannot be, you objected, you complained, it is extremely unfair not to provide justifications, and close the discussion on the assumption your views are equal, that equality only applies once justifications for those opinions are provided. I have provided valid justifications, valid points, I have gone far above mere opinions.

You can choose to stop replying, that's your choice, but it cannot be on the basis of agreeing to disagree, that says both points had equal value.

I can agree to end this discussion as is, not on basis of having different realties or agreeing to disagree, that's a lame copout.

I sincerely wish that you find your peace, and I am sure you have basis for your complaints, but please understand, Brother, there is a world out there that's just as messed up, if not more so.

I have been reading crap about the world since I was a teenager, visited around 20 countries, done detailed research on another dozen, countries I planned on visiting but didn't for one reason or another, visited over 50 cities in my lifetime. Over the years my circle of friends have consisted of people from every single continent. When I say Pakistan is not bad as you people make it out to be, I have a basis for saying so, not just opinions.

Since you have made ur opinion you cannot make other also agree with you by showing urself a privileged. Or by giving example from ur life does not mean it applies to everyone.

 

[RescueRanger]

The only lessons Pakistanis need now more than ever can be found in this little book:

One morning, when Nanji Jafar was playing in the street, Jinnah, then aged about fourteen, came up to him and said, "Don't play marbles in the dust; it spoils your clothes and dirties your hands. We must stand up and play cricket."

The boys in Newnham Road were obedient: they gave up playing marbles and allowed Jinnah to lead them from the dusty street to a bright field where he brought his bat and stumps for them to use. When he sailed for England at the age of sixteen, he gave Nanji Jafar his bat and said, "You will go on teaching the boys to play cricket while I am away."

All Jinnah's story is in the boyhood dictum—'Stand up from the dust so that your clothes are unspoiled and your hands clean for the tasks that fall to them.'

- Hector Bolitho - Jinnah: Creator of Pakistan 1954