Lessons for GHQ in China's brokered agreement between Saudi & Iran

[chinasun]

If you want to draw the wrong conclusions go ahead and start a war with Taiwan, Japan, South Korea or India

Why go to war? The United States poses no threat to China in Taiwan and the South China Sea.

 

[nahtanbob]

That's exactly we want. I never want all eggs to be placed in one basket or go anti-US. My only point is you never compromise your integrity for someone else. Armed forces not only interfere but throw elected govts and then we expect to make our policies like india and brilliantly gain so much from opposing sides like Russia & US simultaneously is not possible. India never have become hired gun and will not become so. It will also never be dictated and won't ever topple its own govts.

My whole reservation is that lately GHQ has not taken a balanced approach. They have tried throw most eggs in the US basket at the expense of losing regional influence and my worry is that they did COMPLETELY futile effort. Our worst enemy is US best ally, there's a immense amount of influence and strategic partnerships between two. There's simply no favor Pak should expect from US. General Bajwa did massive mistake initiating a political chaos in the country on US displeasure.

What makes you think Pakistani army and diplomats have not worked towards balanced foreign policy ? It is definitely not for lack of effort. Results are a function of your size, conflict with India and your weak economy

 

[Meengla]

Khan has oversold US-led coup narrative in this matter, this narrative has done more harm than good in fact.

The biggest tragedy for Pakistan is that Imran Khan would have won the next elections anyway, knowing how incompetent and divided PDM was/is. But Irman chose a wrong narrative in his rush to regain power: A sitting Pakistani PM publicly accusing America who was/is the main resource for Pakistan's economic progress/regression. Imran also did great damage to the Pakistan military, which, despite all its fault, remains the only organized force for Pakistan's stability. You remove the military, then what you have?? Iraq? Syria? Libya?

Imran was removed from power according to a constitutional route. Benazir Bhutto had also faced a No Confidence Motion against much heavier odds in 1989 and I remember those days!! She faced it like a lioness. Imran faced it like a jackal!!

Makes me think that Imran Khan, who had never faced hardships in his life, maybe 'well meaning' but is mentally deranged! A spoiled brat like the 'preppy' boys I see in clubs in America. Life must teach you lessons by some hardships otherwise you are a 'preppy boy'. And as they say in Urdu 'Nadan Dost se Dana Dushman Accha Hey' (A wise enemy is better than a foolish friend). Pakistanis should question Imran's wisdom.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Russians wanted great relations with us. That's what was happening until last establishment's shocking move. In recent naval exercises AMAN by PN, nearly every country was invited. Russia was not invited or they did'nt come. Similarly, nearly ALL NSA's met in Moscow on Afghanistan including india but Pak lost that space too. There's definitely consequences when you remove elected govts on behalf of super power. It does not mean we had to become anti-US. GHQ could reason with them. Could have persuaded them look it would put us in a very tight spot, its only 1.5 yrs remaining in the current govt and then most likely any other govt would be formed. They couldn't persuade them that its our internal matter. How on earth americans or even our allies will respect such a country ? US, China, Russia and everyone knows what really has happened to IK govt. EVERY country's intelligence knows that Pak army proved to dumb yet again. Its time army and army supporters should accept the mistake they did. BTW, allegedly Bajwa himself accepted that "We thought he is dangerous for the country" an interview to Javed chaudhry.. regardless interview happened or not, entire country already knows it.

What shocking move..there was no shocking move..

Pakistan has voted neutral 3 times at UN since the invasion of Ukraine..April November of 2022 and February 2023. they should be grateful we didn't put weight on Ukraines side as technically they are invaders regardless what pretext fair or not they build.

Since we are neutral in this conflict. And this conflict is ongoing . Thats why you wouldnt see pakistan having active excercise with either Ukraine or Russia.Prior to that Pakistan was having excercise with both Ukraine and Russia.

For NSA meet on Afghanistan it was an indian initiative.. there was no representation from Afghanistan as well...so it was useless ..Pakistan has never joined any initiative with regards to Afghanistan that was led by India.

Bajwa and khan are still on fine terms.. Imran achieved siasi shahdat.. he would have been unpopular by now had he stayed In power.. bajwas doctrine made himself a joke but saved pti.. bajwa considers pti an asset of pakistan and Pakistan army regardless of his complications which they can use as per the requirements.

Asad Umar Pervez khattak, fawad chaudhary alvi all are constantly in touch with military establishment and sort of communique between khan and army.

Both bajwa and Imran have met more than twice in a very friendly atmosphere and Imran even offered bajwa to get extension till elections in 2023. What do you call that?

What you see outside is only a political stunt pti needs to capitalise on vote bank.

of GAy heq que

Wow.. a post full of wisdom and knowledge..

 

[truthseeker2010]

You and other PTI fanbois on this forum are so deluded to think along such lines.
The reason the GHQ was 'pleasing' America was Imran Khan's failing economic policies and perhaps an implicit threat by America-led West to either remove Imran or face trade/commerce sanctions. Pakistan was and is very dependent upon its economic relations with the West.
The bogus theory of Pakistani Army licking American boots to keep enjoying perks is just a bogus theory!! The Pakistani Army had always enjoyed perks and that's because Pakistan, due to the rivalry with India over Kashmir, is a 'security State'.
Even now, with a flick of Biden's pen, Pakistan's economy will be destroyed. No UN authorization is even needed for that. Only some rich Pakistanis and expats sittings in comfort in Western countries would want Pakistan to have Imran's vision of the 'Haqeeqi Azadi' (Real Freedom). Bottom line: Unless Pakistan adopts some type of Juche mode of economy, Pakistan can't be a beggar with choices!!!

Lol by that measure US should have given CSF for which your 12th graders have been begging since "defeating" them in Afghanistan. Or IMF should have nodded for giving money.

PDM had sufficient motive to overthrow PTI-led government [on its own] because of its corruption cases that were under investigation by NAB and FIA under PTI-led government, these cases are whitewashed by now.

Dissolve NAB and hold its employees accountable, Abbasi tells new govt

Says NAB chairman took instructions from former prime minister Imran Khan.

www.dawn.com

IHC acquits PML-N’s Ahsan Iqbal in NAB Narowal Sports City reference

Justice Athar Minallah criticises NAB's conduct; PM Shehbaz says Iqbal's integrity proven with acquittal.

www.dawn.com

Lahore court acquits PM Shehbaz, son Hamza in Rs16bn money laundering case

"We stand vindicated," says PM Shehbaz; FIA admits records don't prove charges against premier and his son.

www.dawn.com

PDM is a powerful faction and could pull strings in armed forces as well.

Khan has oversold US-led coup narrative in this matter, this narrative has done more harm than good in fact.

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Pakistan is already aligned with China to the extent possible, CPEC is the single biggest representation of this fact in geopolitical terms and otherwise.

CPEC | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Secretariat Official Website

CPEC | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Official Website Develop By Ministry of Planning Development & Special Initiatives CPEC Secretariat 5th Floor, Science and Technology Building,1-Constitution Avenue, G-5/2 ,Islamabad. China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is a framework of regional...

cpec.gov.pk

Pakistan has a civil nuclear deal with China as well.

China-Pakistan Nuclear Energy Cooperation: History and Key Debates – South Asian Voices

Pakistan seeks to resolve its energy crisis through collaboration with China, which has been Pakistan’s historical partner in civil nuclear energy.

southasianvoices.org

Pakistani armed forces buy arms from China as well.

Pakistan's J-10 Acquisition and Conventional Deterrence – South Asian Voices

Pakistan has moved forward with purchasing J-10 fighters from China, reportedly in response to India's Rafale purchases.

southasianvoices.org

In spite of these developments, look where Pakistan stands in the present.

I recall a post in which I provided a good overview of how US contributes to Pakistan's economic situation and households, and the issue of Pakistan's significant trade deficit with China which Pakistan is unable to address due to lack of heavy industry and demand for Pakistani goods in Chinese markets.

Kashmiri Mujahids being hunted down in Pakistan

Well the Pak army failed to stop an indian missile over its territory. The army has became an exceptionally weak institution hired to kill on the orders of the white colonial master. Bajwa is a complete utter disgrace.

defence.pk

Is it advisable for Pakistan to put all of its eggs in one basket?

In Pakistan's case, it makes sense to explore explore new avenues to develop its economy and military capability while maintaining good relations with China.

The entire OECD bloc can offer much more to Pakistan.

But Pakistan's pathetic political situation and corruption is off-putting to many countries out there. Pakistan needs to address these problems and signal its commitment to globalization instead of trying to sell CPEC to global audience.

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KSA is exploring new avenues to develop its economy and military capability as well. Towards this end, KSA finds in China a new market for KSA to tap in full capacity and it is doing the honors.

KSA is one of the largest oil-producing countries in the world, and China has become its largest buyer.

S. Arabia becomes largest oil supplier to China in 2020

- Saudi's oil exports to China amounts to approximately 1.69 million barrels per day in 2020, up 1.9% year over year - Anadolu Agency

www.aa.com.tr

Saudi Arabia stays top crude supplier to China in 2022, Russian barrels surge

Russia remained China's second-largest source of crude oil in 2022, following repeat top supplier Saudi Arabia, as Chinese refiners snapped up low-cost Russian barrels while Western countries shunned them after the Ukraine crisis.

www.reuters.com

This is a value-driven bilateral relationship in which both sides can meet important needs of each other.

China also has bilateral relations with Iran and could apply pressure on it to make amends with KSA.

But China cannot apply similar pressure on India to make amends with Pakistan. China itself has territorial disputes with India including in the J&K sector. China does not have territorial disputes with Iran on other hand.

KSA is not putting all of its eggs in one basket but awarding contracts to foreign entities on MERIT and in search for collaborative partnerships with willing companies for in-house production of various types of goods. KSA is looking forward to diversify its economic options in this manner.

Business & Economy

Saudi Arabia's economic transformation fuels a diverse, vibrant economy, attracting investment and empowering SMEs.

www.vision2030.gov.sa

Foreign Direct Investment

Foreign Direct Investment

misa.gov.sa

Foreign direct investment in Saudi Arabia exceeds $260bn

The total foreign investment in Saudi Arabia exceeded one trillion riyals ($260 billion) during the third quarter of 2022, according to data released by the Saudi Central Bank (SAMA). The monthly...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Top Companies in Saudi Arabia | GulfTalent.com

Companies in Saudi Arabia - Find list of top Companies in Saudi Arabia browse jobs by company and apply for free.

www.gulftalent.com

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American hardware is globally renowned for its quality, it has served Pakistani armed forces well on many counts. It makes sense to be in the position to purchase Western arms if not exclusively American. Do you think KSA has stopped purchasing American hardware? (NO)

State Department clears weapons sales to Saudi Arabia, UAE

Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have been given the green light by the State Department to purchase billions worth of missiles and equipment.

www.defensenews.com

There is much narrative building out there which push for bloc politics in line with Cold War dynamics. But KSA is moving away from bloc politics and pushing for globalization. Some people are mistaking this shift as strategic re-alignment with China, it isn't in strict sense.

WSJ News Exclusive | Saudi Arabia Seeks U.S. Security Pledges, Nuclear Help for Peace With Israel

Striking a normalization deal between the two countries has become a priority for President Biden and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

www.wsj.com

KSA is inviting global investment deep down (see above).

It is important to look at the bigger picture of global developments and not misread them.

Pakistan needs to step out from its Cold War era mentality and invite global investment, if it is grow and prosper. But Pakistan has to address its pathetic political situation and menace of corruption for now.

Some here accuse Pakistani armed forces of being shortsighted while same is true for them.

India did not partake in bloc politics and look where it stand in the present in comparison to Pakistan. India is open to working with entire world more or less. It has trade relations with China as well but territorial disputes are ongoing.

Pak was always a client state of US. Till US interest started to align with India. So pak looked towards China albeit more than usual. But when China's conditions became tough Pak again turned towards US for help. The last thing us wanted from pak was afg exit. After that GHQ started dancing on US defeat so US is now showing them their true place.

India had always been an independent country with strong institutions. Pak isn't.

 

[Meengla]

Lol by that measure US should have given CSF for which your 12th graders have been begging since "defeating" them in Afghanistan. Or IMF should have nodded for giving money.



Pak was always a client state of US. Till US interest started to align with India. So pak looked towards China albeit more than usual. But when China's conditions became tough Pak again turned towards US for help. The last thing us wanted from pak was afg exit. After that GHQ started dancing on US defeat so US is now showing them their true place.

India had always been an independent country with strong institutions. Pak isn't.

The false narrative Imran Khan has built and fooled tens of millions of Pakistanis of PDM as 'imported govt' is a false narrative and speaks volume about how even educated Pakistanis, such as in this forum, have been swept away by the prevalent Anti-Americanism in Pakistan. That narrative, is not only false, as even Imran Khan has recently backpaddled on that, but is also very very dangerous because, unless Pakistanis adopt some Juche kind of self reliance, it would be extremely damaging to Pakistan's economy. Imran Khan wants to gift India something unwittingly.

About Pakistan's reliance on America, I strongly believe Pakistan had greatly benefited from being an American ally through at least the 1960s. Pakistan's survival itself was very questionable in 1947 and the early death of Mr. Jinnah further damaged Pakistan's chances. But American help, especially around the Indus Water Treaty, greatly helped Pakistan, not to mention the American weaponry and training has made the Pakistani military a potent challenger to India. Indians, in contrast, were stupid to follow some utopian socialist doctrine and joined the dying camp of the Soviets. Pakistan was ahead of India in many ways well into the 1980s and a reason for that was Pakistan's western looking policies.

 

[truthseeker2010]

The false narrative Imran Khan has built and fooled tens of millions of Pakistanis of PDM as 'imported govt' is a false narrative and speaks volume about how even educated Pakistanis, such as in this forum, have been swept away by the prevalent Anti-Americanism in Pakistan. That narrative, is not only false, as even Imran Khan has recently backpaddled on that, but is also very very dangerous because, unless Pakistanis adopt some Juche kind of self reliance, it would be extremely damaging to Pakistan's economy. Imran Khan wants to gift India something unwittingly.

About Pakistan's reliance on America, I strongly believe Pakistan had greatly benefited from being an American ally through at least the 1960s. Pakistan's survival itself was very questionable in 1947 and the early death of Mr. Jinnah further damaged Pakistan's chances. But American help, especially around the Indus Water Treaty, greatly helped Pakistan, not to mention the American weaponry and training has made the Pakistani military a potent challenger to India. Indians, in contrast, were stupid to follow some utopian socialist doctrine and joined the dying camp of the Soviets. Pakistan was ahead of India in many ways well into the 1980s and a reason for that was Pakistan's western looking policies.

I am not anti American but Yes I am anti **** army generals

 

[Goritoes]

After consideration and act of mercy, GHQ decided to leave chaddi for Pakistani's but rest of their clothes has to be looted in name of National security and prosperity.

 

[MastanKhan]

With all due respect how is Pakistani soldier going to perform in Yemen ? What is even the motivation ?

Son,

I normally do not communicate with indian members here for obvious reasons---but will make and exception for you.

You really really want to ask this question---?????

You post on a defense forum and yet you do not understand armed forces---.

Soldiers are given orders---and they follow those orders without questions---.

This is not a sales crew that you have to motivate to do the job---.

BTW you wanted to send 500K troops to middle east ? Who told you they needed 500K and btw what you would have back at home for any emergency ?


Lastly, now when eventually Iran & Saudi would have patched up then how would you have approached Iran or china or countries who want regional connectivity & prosperity ? With what face you would have approached them being nothing but a useless mercenary / hired gun. Jumping in other's wars is the most disrespectful thing a nation can do or even imagine.

Hi,

Actually I was the leader of the group and I reached the highest of the high---.

It is the ISLAMIC way---the islamic progression that I was following---history of Islam is filled with muslims fighting other peoples wars---.

As for the highlighted---use some common sense Son---. You send some from existing forces---you recruit---you train them---you then send them to mixup with the existing troops---.

You don't even know this much and you have the audacity to start a thread on this topic.

Son---this topic is beyond your thought grade---please leave it at that---.

Chickenhawk mentality.

These are people's sons and husbands to be used as cannon fodder.

Send your own kids first with that kind of mentality.

Hi,

Islamic history is filled up with muslim conquerors using people's sons and husbands and fathers.

And so is american history as well---.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Son,

I normally do not communicate with indian members here for obvious reasons---but will make and exception for you.

You really really want to ask this question---?????

You post on a defense forum and yet you do not understand armed forces---.

Soldiers are given orders---and they follow those orders without questions---.

This is not a sales crew that you have to motivate to do the job---.


Hi,

Actually I was the leader of the group and I reached the highest of the high---.

It is the ISLAMIC way---the islamic progression that I was following---history of Islam is filled with muslims fighting other peoples wars---.

As for the highlighted---use some common sense Son---. You send some from existing forces---you recruit---you train them---you then send them to mixup with the existing troops---.

You don't even know this much and you have the audacity to start a thread on this topic.

Son---this topic is beyond your thought grade---please leave it at that---.


Hi,

Islamic history is filled up with muslim conquerors using people's sons and husbands and fathers.

And so is american history as well---.

While your line of thinking maybe lost on many, I assume I understand your reasoning...
And here is how I think it is wrong.
Short answer...
Pakistan is not an empire!
Further, it(you contention) assumes that the leadership is free and represents the rightful voice of it's masses without even going into the merits of the said desire.

That being said, Pakistan's current predicament is being substantially underplayed... reasons for that may become apparent overtime. It has much to do with Pakistan exposing it's hand... and guess what there was no need to show its hand in the first place.

Lastly, Pakistan will eventually have to undo it's colonial crutches for it's people to find their feet. Course correction is even harder when hyenas are crawling and smelling blood.

 

[S.Y.A]

Imran was removed from power according to a constitutional route. Benazir Bhutto had also faced a No Confidence Motion against much heavier odds in 1989 and I remember those days!! She faced it like a lioness. Imran faced it like a jackal!!

agree with the rest of your post, but there was nothing constitutional about this vote. pure horse-trading. highest bidder got the prize. and benazir faced it like a "lioness", because, well, horse-trading. benazir was, is and will remain a failure.

 

[truthseeker2010]

The biggest tragedy for Pakistan is that Imran Khan would have won the next elections anyway, knowing how incompetent and divided PDM was/is. But Irman chose a wrong narrative in his rush to regain power: A sitting Pakistani PM publicly accusing America who was/is the main resource for Pakistan's economic progress/regression. Imran also did great damage to the Pakistan military, which, despite all its fault, remains the only organized force for Pakistan's stability. You remove the military, then what you have?? Iraq? Syria? Libya?

Imran was removed from power according to a constitutional route. Benazir Bhutto had also faced a No Confidence Motion against much heavier odds in 1989 and I remember those days!! She faced it like a lioness. Imran faced it like a jackal!!

Makes me think that Imran Khan, who had never faced hardships in his life, maybe 'well meaning' but is mentally deranged! A spoiled brat like the 'preppy' boys I see in clubs in America. Life must teach you lessons by some hardships otherwise you are a 'preppy boy'. And as they say in Urdu 'Nadan Dost se Dana Dushman Accha Hey' (A wise enemy is better than a foolish friend). Pakistanis should question Imran's wisdom.

For all his failures and shortcomings. He exposed the system, specially the 12th grade employees of West pakistan company.

 

[MastanKhan]

While your line of thinking maybe lost on many, I assume I understand your reasoning...
And here is how I think it is wrong.
Short answer...
Pakistan is not an empire!
Further, it(you contention) assumes that the leadership is free and represents the rightful voice of it's masses without even going into the merits of the said desire.

That being said, Pakistan's current predicament is being substantially underplayed... reasons for that may become apparent overtime. It has much to do with Pakistan exposing it's hand... and guess what there was no need to show its hand in the first place.

Lastly, Pakistan will eventually have to undo it's colonial crutches for it's people to find their feet. Course correction is even harder when hyenas are crawling and smelling blood.

Hi,

Here is the problem in you comment---. Your comments are a " conjecture "

I am making simple straight statements---and gave them in the past as well.

If a country does that---then this will happen---if it does that---then that will happen---and this is based on historical precedence over a period of centuries by other nations.

Pakistan's predicament is that it does grab the bull by the horn---but rather let it trample it---.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Hi,

Here is the problem in you comment---. Your comments are a " conjecture "

I am making simple straight statements---and gave them in the past as well.

If a country does that---then this will happen---if it does that---then that will happen---and this is based on historical precedence over a period of centuries by other nations.

Pakistan's predicament is that it does grab the bull by the horn---but rather let it trample it---.

A client state follows orders! One of it's job is to maintain gulf monarchies at the bare minimum. It will keep and nothing more... such as services yielded to Jordan against PLO.

So looking simply at history will give you examples but not context.

 

[nahtanbob]

Son,

I normally do not communicate with indian members here for obvious reasons---but will make and exception for you.

You really really want to ask this question---?????

You post on a defense forum and yet you do not understand armed forces---.

Soldiers are given orders---and they follow those orders without questions---.

This is not a sales crew that you have to motivate to do the job---.

What you say is true in theory. What might the orders be ? To fight the Houthis. I say good luck to Pakistani soldier distinguishing between Houthi and non-Houthi,