Leadership of PAF needs a healthy change !

[pakistanMYheart]

The question is, were there any tp, heli pilots who served in other senior positions. like AOC-in-C, DCAS ops, ACAS Ops etc etc.

Never has a tp/heli pilot reached any commanding post. May it be AOC or DCAS(Ops) or ACAS(Ops).

 

[Muradk]

Never has a tp/heli pilot reached any commanding post. May it be AOC or DCAS(Ops) or ACAS(Ops).

Yes they have that is why I keep saying choose a topic which you are fully aware off.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Muradk sb

I have chosen a topic that I am fully aware of, and my knowledge is absolutely current.

Would you kindly enlighten us by telling us the name of a tp/heli pilot who reached to the posts of CAS,AOC or DCAS (Ops)?

And as you are aware of people who are next in line to the throne. Do tp pilots/heli pilots EVER have a chance to take up these posts?

(And even if some odd man made it up to the commanding posts 30 years ago or so), the discussion is about the CURRENT setup of the Air Force. Where administration people are not allowed to reach top posts in Administration. Where engineering people are not allowed to reach a number of top posts in engineering, and so on.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

Also related to the above post ...

PAF is not IAF that they will make a helicopter pilot the COAS

 

[Muradk]

@Muradk sb

I have chosen a topic that I am fully aware of, and my knowledge is absolutely current.
defen
Would you kindly enlighten us by telling us the name of a tp/heli pilot who reached to the posts of CAS,AOC or DCAS (Ops)?

And as you are aware of people who are next in line to the throne. Do tp pilots/heli pilots EVER have a chance to take up these posts?

(And even if some odd man made it up to the commanding posts 30 years ago or so), the discussion is about the CURRENT setup of the Air Force. Where administration people are not allowed to reach top posts in Administration. Where engineering people are not allowed to reach a number of top posts in engineering, and so on.

Yar App ki problem KAy hai . Now I am dead sure you are a PAF Retired Officer who served honorably but feels that you deserved more if everybody starts thinking like that we will have a mutiny up our hands SO you didn't get a medal , a plot, a piece of land hard bloody luck start living with it.. Well it did happen 30 years ago or Current but it did, Now I will not name the person that would be not right but let me tell you, He was DCAS OPS a heli pilot, comes to FLS I hope you know what that is and says to the base commander how many pilot do you have he said 60 he said fire 30 of them just like that.I cant go into details.
Now we have people from Air Def, Engg, Transport pilots,who get to be Air marshals, what else do you want. We even had people in PAF who flew fighters with artificial legs, PAF is full of opportunities it all comes to how good you are to the person next to you.
From my knowledge I feel that this topic is very personal so why so shy lets just get it out and say it.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

Meri koi problem nahi hay.

And I am not a PAF officer, serving or retired. Just a common man, interested in improving my country.

This topic is not personal at all, and let me assure you, I have no personal gains associated with the PAF, and I never had any. But I do know that my country does. It is you who is taking it personally. Why dont you reply me me just like any other forum member? in a cool way?

I would remind you of the original topic again. We are discussing about the CURRENT trends in PAF. Yes, PAF is full of oppurtunities. But, their is a certain lack of oppurtunities for some people, which has been discussed in clearly and in detail in this thread. Why dont you want to hear it? and want me to keep quiet?

Am I wrong in saying that an administration officer should be able to reach to top post in his own branch? Yes, ground branches people do reach higher ranks but why dont they get posts that I have been mentioning in this thread?

 

[Muradk]

Meri koi problem nahi hay.

And I am not a PAF officer, serving or retired. Just a common man, interested in improving my country.

This topic is not personal at all, and let me assure you, I have no personal gains associated with the PAF, and I never had any. But I do know that my country does. It is you who is taking it personally. Why dont you reply me me just like any other forum member? in a cool way?

I would remind you of the original topic again. We are discussing about the CURRENT trends in PAF. Yes, PAF is full of oppurtunities. But, their is a certain lack of oppurtunities for some people, which has been discussed in clearly and in detail in this thread. Why dont you want to hear it? and want me to keep quiet?

Am I wrong in saying that an administration officer should be able to reach to top post in his own branch? Yes, ground branches people do reach higher ranks but why dont they get posts that I have been mentioning in this thread?

You will never understand my affiliation with PAF last 3 COAS and 4 VCOAS have been my students including the current so yes I feel if any one who talks about PAF he talks about my house I am what I am because of PAF. I have 1 son who just became the OC of one of the finest SQD of PAF, 6 Nephews , 2 cousins, 1 is a Air Marshal other a AVM and my bother in LAW who was the last VCOAS.
If you want to think about Pakistan than think about our leadership who are running the country. They are the ones who are screwing the country up not our Armed Forces.
Its 4.18 in the morning I need sleep. Goodnight

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Muradk sb

Did I doubt your affiliation with PAF, in any of my posts? I have repeatedly stated how much I honor PAF heroes.

Yes, the rulers of the country need to be discussed too. They are screwing up the country real bad. I never said in any of my posts that PAF is screwing up the country.

But, this does not answer my questions that I have been asking from the start of this thread. Does it?

Have a nice sleep. Waiting for answers to my queries, when you wake up tomorrow.

 

[araz]

@rehan


@araz

I never said that a non-PAF person should lead the PAF. With reference to my first post. I am just mentioning that PAF is composed of many departments (or branches, as PAF calls them). Officers and men are trained for their respective branches. I will explain this by an example.

Administration in PAF is responsible for housing, finance, security, welfare and related stuff. An administration officer is inducted in PAF, and trained for these jobs. He then works on these jobs, and gains years of experience. And when this administration officer completes about 30+ years of service, he cannot become the Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Adminstration), because this post is taken by a pilot.

We all know what pilots are inducted and trained for. They learn flying, war tactics, strategic planning and other related things. But, why appoint a pilot as DCAS (Administration)? This is my area of concern.

And among other posts, you will find pilots occupying posts like Chairman of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Chief Project Director of JF-17 Project, Deputy Chief of Air Staff(Support Services), Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Information Technology) and many others. For each of these departments, there are specialist existing in the PAF. But, they are not allowed to reach to top posts (even in their own branch). Why ?

What I want to say is, give the right job to the right man. A pilot thinking he can do any thing, is no different from a politician thinking that he can become the Minister for Railways, Education, Women Affairs, Interior or anything else. Specialized jobs should be handled by specialists. This is the age of technology and specialization. Old ways of thinking no more apply here.

So, a similar situation is there in PAF. The masses donot know it, because PAF is not a public affair like our governments. But it is not hard to understand, that this creates inefficiency and slow progress. News of mismanagement in procurement of Defence equipment, often make it to the mainstream media.

We are bound to respect our forces, and stand for them. But, as lovers of Pakistan, we can also discuss if something is wrong, and try to change for good.

pakistani my heart.
brother i understand your concern and sympathize with you. I have already complimented you on this thread which i think has generated a fair debate.
I have already alluded to what i think is the fallacy in all Forces in that adinistrative jobs should not be given to people who are not appropriately trained.i f you look at my posts I have talked about the need to separate defence production form being run by defence personnell. I also agree at the expense of another rebuke from my friend and brother mastan Khan that afdministative jobs in the armed forces should be left to appropriately trained staff. My personal expertise is medicine and there is an armed forces medical core run by a General(I think at least one!!). I am sure that people in administrative jobs also get promoted to a higher level. As to what level probably depends on their capabilityand the need within the forces for their to be a person of that rank doing that job.
I agree that armed forces personnell should not be put in charge of Administrativeposts. i think the problem is one of lack of resources and rather than retiring people, all armed forces like to look after their people who have served the forces for 30 odd yrs. Their may be a certain element of commaradery which i think is wrong.
However, if you are thinking of an administrator taking over PAF I think that would be a bad idea. From your posts i think that not to be the case. Finally I think that this is as much a case of pressure groups due to lack of resources as it is in every sphere of our existence. Being a more organized unit than most other institutions, our armed forces do it a bit more efficiently than others. This does not make it right but it iss the case throughout our country. We need a lot of things to change before these tendencies will be curbed as well.
I hope i have made my points as clear as possible without "ganging up" on you
waSalam
Araz

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@araz

Of course, a "typical administration officer", some who one knows nothing about the operations of the Air Force, should never reach the top. It would be a disaster. I have mainly talked about allowing administration officers to reach the post of Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration). A post which is ONLY and ONLY concerned with the internal administrative affairs of PAF (housing, welfare, accounts, security), and has no concern with PAF operations what so ever.

What I want to say is, that any body with the RIGHT administrative skills, should be allowed to reach top posts. And those administrative skills are not limited to fighter pilots.

 

[x_man]

As far as the airforce is concerned, I think it is very critical in putting the right people for the right job. A pilot’s career profile is designed in a manner that he is performing Admin duties and parallel operational duties from the very beginning of his career. The people who think here that pilots only eat, fly and then go home are making fool of themselves. It is such a multi layered job and he is exposed to all sorts of duties as part of his grooming. From Flight Commander to OC squadron to OC wing and till Base Commander, he gets a very heavy dose of handling administration matters and can easily merge into any situation presented to him.

While an account officer has managed only accounts related matters during his tenure or a general Admin officer has only handled matters regarding general administration, on the contrary a senior pilot has not only mastered his administration skill but has also to care operational aspects. A DCAS (Admin) from GD branch is not only considering the Admin matters but he has also to see that how the Administration aspects will influence the operational aspects. He has to merge Admin matters with operations and can only do when he has the understanding of both. If you are suggesting making an Account officer a DCAS (Admin) then God bless us during any war. How can you expect a person of ZERO ops background to lead an Airforce administratively into war zone????

Admin and Operations during war are all meshed up and can only be handled and lead by a person who has understanding of both. In many air forces of the world and even in RAF, the Admin( support services) are lead by a pilot for obvious reasons….

Ok Sir now to PAC Kamra….Can you please tell us that which branch is heading AMF or F-6 Rebuild or Mirage Rebuild or KARF??? They are all Engineers..arent they ? Does it really matter which branch Chairman is from? Hasn’t Engineers been made Chairman PAC in the past??? Did you just made a deliberate omission to mention that on forum or just could be bothered??? You are just misleading everyone here to believe that all branches other than pilots are victims here.

Otherwise, no one wants to work under the illiterate person (as far as departments other than flying are concerned).

Yeh the PAF pilots are illiterate piece of junk and no one wants to work under them…..Pehaps we should put all PhDs, doctors, engineers and Professors in the cockpit and do all the stuff that pilots do. Will that make you a happier person ?

He frequently has to go crying to the Base Commander (something that pilots are very fond of), and get his problems solved. This is exactly why pilots need a Base Commander to be a pilot.

OK…so you now want an Admin officer to be Base commander??? I think you have some serious issues here with pilots otherwise one cannot write such dim-witted thing. Your hatred against pilots is quite visible and I would suggest you to avoid writing such stuff on an open forum against the very people who have been dedicatedly serving your country till now……

You also have issues with not promoting heli / tpt crew to senior ranks. Just to give you one example, AVM Javed Hayat Malik who was DCAS (Admin) was from which system??? Bhai jaan, although we have a very small airforce but our problems and enemies are too large….How many countries in world have fought 4 wars in 60 years? How many countries have dealt with multiple insurgencies within country??? Our (PAF) operations and plans are very different from many courtiers and have to be dealt with specific people who are the best in business….Please let house know that how many operational Rescue ( heli) pilots we have from Masroor to Kamra? Or how many Tpt pilots do we have??? Compare their numbers to the people who are from fighters…..PAF is fighter heavy and will remain as such due to the nature of its operations.

Do you know that Indian Air force Heli pilots also attend the TACDE ? They have more Heli/ Tpt pilots and aircrafts then fighters. Their heli crew perhaps outnumber the fighter pilots alone….On the other side, we have a very handful of Helis and pilots. No disrespect to them, but walk into any rescue crew room or a C-130 area and ask anyone that what’s the difference between Armed Reccee and BAI ? Or what’s the difference between an Alamo and an Archer? How can you expect people with no operations nick nack to be put on the helm of affairs? We are always short on resources and manpower and need the right person for the right job…we don’t have luxuries like other airforces to experiment with people and their posts….PAF will remain fighter heavy whether you like it or not….Its as simple.

If you have still issues with the force and can’t control your zameer ki awaaz then I would suggest you take your mask off and go public with your grievances. Let everyone know that how cruel and nasty the pilots are….Put the same in newspapers with your name and picture ….Do you have gutts to do that ? I don’t think so. All your types can do is to hide behind their masks and keep bad mouthing their own people….

As I said earlier that you are just suffering from low self-respect and blaming it on the others…….Please try keeping your chin up ….Things aren’t that bad as you are trying to portray….

 

[pakistanMYheart]

dear @x-man

First of all welcome to the discussion. You really seem to have entered the discussion, loaded with bombs and missiles as if you are flying a fighter aircraft right now.

Let me tell you I am not, or never was in the PAF. I am a lawyer by profession. Unlike you, my weapons are patience and commitment to purpose. My job is to intellectually prove or disprove. I openly accept if I am wrong, but never, if I am not. I am not here for a war, that I must win. If you convince me that you are right, I will be happy to accept it. That is what I am in this forum for.

I think that my knowledge about the internal workings of Armed Forces, is making you think that I am a part of PAF. I know it all because of my interest in our Armed Forces. And unlike most people, my interests are not limited to collecting pictures of military weapons. You can see it from my posts.

It seems that telling you things that go against the feudal thinking of pilots like your self, is hurting you real bad. Why not accept what is true, than to get angry and abuse someone?. This anger and abusive language is indicative of your being on the wrong footing, and trying to hush up the matters, by acting fierce. I faced almost the same response from @Muradk a few posts ago.

I will answer you soon enough, but for now your tone of talking is really bad. Politeness and decency has never touched you in your life, as it seems. I would have loved to answer you in this tone, but keeping in view the criticism I faced from the house, when I tried to be a bit aggressive before (read the starting part of this thread), I would keep quite for now. Your style of talking speaks volumes of what you are. You will really have problems in convincing me or other people, that pilots are sensible and cultured human beings. I hope the forum members are noting this.

I would refrain from answering this post for the moment, till the tone of @x-man is taken care of. I would request the MODS to please look at the language of @x-man.

 

[araz]

Xman
What happened to you man? You are smokin hot today!!! I think this thread has really generated a lot of debate. I also think this young man has a personal story behind this thread. But simmer down my friend,I htink he has understood how the river runs here!!!. By the by we need to talk!!
WaSalam
Araz

 

[sonicboom]

an open forum against the very people who have been saving your sorry arse till now……

With due respect...

Now that shows frustration on your part. A typical Pakistani approach; can't debate with facts, throw mud. The gentleman had raised a simple question and could have been answered by any one of you in one paragraph. But that’s not the case.

And let me correct you. You did not save our ….. as you stated above, First, you did it to save your own ....; otherwise Indian Air Force would have eaten you raw. Second, you were contracted by the Pakistani Government and the people of Pakistan with the understanding that one day you would have to go to war and in return you were trained and paid handsomely in addition to all the perks. You did not give a favor to anyone but to yourself. So don’t tell me what you did for the nation but tell me what the nation had done for you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

OK folks calm down.

Legitimate questions have been raised and I think that X-man did provide legitimate answers, despite losing his cool somewhat.

I am sure X-Man did not mean to come across as so abrasive, and it is quite unlike him, for those who have followed his posts.

bad day at work perhaps .....

PakistanMYheart, thank you for continuing to remain civil and patient during the course of this discourse.

The one point I would like to make with regards to your position - while exploring potential changes in various aspects of the administrative structure is an excellent idea, change should not be undertaken for the sake of change alone. During the course of this discussion it may well turn out that given the PAF being a 'fighter heavy' AF, the current administrative setup for the most part functions best through the traditional leadership trends.

X-Man (in between his abrasiveness ) I thought made good arguments in favor of Officers with knowledge of both administrative and operational issues being put in charge, given how the PAF is constituted currently (fighter heavy, imminent threats from multiple sources etc.).

He also acknowledged that engineers play a valuable role in the PAC etc. That perhaps might be an are where your argument has merit.

In any case, discussions on leadership and changes to get the best out of an organization are always fascinating. But lets remain civil and actually listen to the other side - there may be merit in change or there may not be, and if there is merit in change, that change may not have to apply from top to bottom, but to specific areas only.

So, let bygones be bygones and continue please.