Leadership of PAF needs a healthy change !

[Muradk]

@Muradk

Please do not quote examples from history or tradition. Because, historical trends and tradition is exactly what we are trying to change here. If you experienced something in your past, it does not mean the same should happen in the future. People like you want the young generation not to look forwards, and change for better. You only want them to look back, follow your silly traditions, and never change any thing. This kind of thinking has given Pakistan resistance to change and slow progress.

"You as a SQD Commander (fighter pilot) have Air Def, Planning , Training, Engg, Logistics, Personal, Medical,Social Club".
As opposed to what @Muradk thinks, I have first hand experience of the working of the PAF. A SQD Commander (fighter pilot) has all these departments under him, just because it is going on as such. Otherwise, no one wants to work under the illiterate person (as far as departments other than flying are concerned). The way engineering people, logistics people and administration people manipulate the poor SQD Commander is well known to all. He frequently has to go crying to the Base Commander (something that pilots are very fond of), and get his problems solved. This is exactly why pilots need a Base Commander to be a pilot.

"That is why a GDP is given preference over everyone else because he commands most departments than any 1 person".
Please donot misguide this forum. A GDP is given preference because, in an absurd way, the pilots want to keep ruling the Air Force. There are two ways to reach the top. One is to work hard, and show that you are at the top. The other way is to suppress everyone else, so you will automatically be at the top. This method is called Feudalism, which is exactly what happens in the Air Force.

"Just give you an example 1979 I took 9 Sqd to Kalabagh ... ".
This is a useless mention. Anybody working in any good organization or company knows, that you are the final authority in your own area of work. With your seemingly limited view of the world, you are considering your actions heroic. However, if you open you eyes, this happens daily, and everywhere.

"PANCAKE ...".
Another illogical example. A small boy would know, that if an engineer is leading a group of pilots, he cannot manage it well, until he is trained for it. And the same is true vice versa. The pilots that command departments that are not related to their field, face the same situation at the hands of engineers, administrators and logistics officers. They may use their seniority to shut people up, but that is what happens. And no pilot is bold enough to discuss this daily embarrassment.

"The Air Marshall who is the Chairman is a fighter pilot because he knows about fighter what time it takes one to get fixed who needs a fighter at what base".
You are again misguiding the forum. The Air Headquarters decides, who needs a fighter and when. The Chairman is not a part of the Air Force (he is a part of the Ministry of Defence). So, he does not make such decisions. His job is to ensure timely maintenance of whatever aircraft or equipment is sent to him. And a pilot is the most ill suited person for this job.

The Chairman knows what time it takes an aircraft to get fixed ?
He must be a Saint then. No one knows how much time it will take to get an aircraft fixed, unless the aircraft is opened up by the respective engineers and technicians, and a fault diagnosis is carried out. @Muradk, most kids know this, dont you?

DCAS (Administration) is a GDP, because he has all the administration capabilities ?
I would like to enlighten the forum that Administration in PAF is responsible for housing, security, medical services, accounts. @Muradk says that during a one or two years appointment as a Base Commander, a pilot can learn how the manage the housing, security, medical services and accounts of the WHOLE AIR FORCE. We really need a smiley here .

DCAS (Support) is a GDP, because he knows how it works?
For the forum, Support in PAF is responsible for supply of spare parts, fuel, clothing, vehicles and other things. This is called Logistics in most organizations. Any sensible person knows that logistics is an extremely specialized job, and people learn it over years.(First you have to study Logistics Management). It is the lifeline of any organization. @Muradk, I hope you dont claim that you can fly an aircraft without fuel, because a pilot can do anything ?

I cannot understand your last paragraph. If you would explain it in a more sensible manner (not considering that this is a comedy show going on), may be we all can benefit from it.

@Muradk

Please do not quote examples from history or tradition. Because, historical trends and tradition is exactly what we are trying to change here. If you experienced something in your past, it does not mean the same should happen in the future. People like you want the young generation not to look forwards, and change for better. You only want them to look back, follow your silly traditions, and never change any thing. This kind of thinking has given Pakistan resistance to change and slow progress.

"You as a SQD Commander (fighter pilot) have Air Def, Planning , Training, Engg, Logistics, Personal, Medical,Social Club".
As opposed to what @Muradk thinks, I have first hand experience of the working of the PAF. A SQD Commander (fighter pilot) has all these departments under him, just because it is going on as such. Otherwise, no one wants to work under the illiterate person (as far as departments other than flying are concerned). The way engineering people, logistics people and administration people manipulate the poor SQD Commander is well known to all. He frequently has to go crying to the Base Commander (something that pilots are very fond of), and get his problems solved. This is exactly why pilots need a Base Commander to be a pilot.

"That is why a GDP is given preference over everyone else because he commands most departments than any 1 person".
Please donot misguide this forum. A GDP is given preference because, in an absurd way, the pilots want to keep ruling the Air Force. There are two ways to reach the top. One is to work hard, and show that you are at the top. The other way is to suppress everyone else, so you will automatically be at the top. This method is called Feudalism, which is exactly what happens in the Air Force.

"Just give you an example 1979 I took 9 Sqd to Kalabagh ... ".
This is a useless mention. Anybody working in any good organization or company knows, that you are the final authority in your own area of work. With your seemingly limited view of the world, you are considering your actions heroic. However, if you open you eyes, this happens daily, and everywhere.

"PANCAKE ...".
Another illogical example. A small boy would know, that if an engineer is leading a group of pilots, he cannot manage it well, until he is trained for it. And the same is true vice versa. The pilots that command departments that are not related to their field, face the same situation at the hands of engineers, administrators and logistics officers. They may use their seniority to shut people up, but that is what happens. And no pilot is bold enough to discuss this daily embarrassment.

"The Air Marshall who is the Chairman is a fighter pilot because he knows about fighter what time it takes one to get fixed who needs a fighter at what base".
You are again misguiding the forum. The Air Headquarters decides, who needs a fighter and when. The Chairman is not a part of the Air Force (he is a part of the Ministry of Defence). So, he does not make such decisions. His job is to ensure timely maintenance of whatever aircraft or equipment is sent to him. And a pilot is the most ill suited person for this job.

The Chairman knows what time it takes an aircraft to get fixed ?
He must be a Saint then. No one knows how much time it will take to get an aircraft fixed, unless the aircraft is opened up by the respective engineers and technicians, and a fault diagnosis is carried out. @Muradk, most kids know this, dont you?

DCAS (Administration) is a GDP, because he has all the administration capabilities ?
I would like to enlighten the forum that Administration in PAF is responsible for housing, security, medical services, accounts. @Muradk says that during a one or two years appointment as a Base Commander, a pilot can learn how the manage the housing, security, medical services and accounts of the WHOLE AIR FORCE. We really need a smiley here .

DCAS (Support) is a GDP, because he knows how it works?
For the forum, Support in PAF is responsible for supply of spare parts, fuel, clothing, vehicles and other things. This is called Logistics in most organizations. Any sensible person knows that logistics is an extremely specialized job, and people learn it over years.(First you have to study Logistics Management). It is the lifeline of any organization. @Muradk, I hope you dont claim that you can fly an aircraft without fuel, because a pilot can do anything ?

I cannot understand your last paragraph. If you would explain it in a more sensible manner (not considering that this is a comedy show going on), may be we all can benefit from it.

Look Kid I always respect all members until they are told to back off because your info is bad or it makes look PAF stupid.
You don't' know me so I will not go into my Pathan mode.
Your Afghan War hero's all of them are my students what I learned from my IPs I passed the knowledge to them. Well they all came victorious in a Dog fight, so we dont take our children back wards but we do tend to teach them what we have learned, And Young man Don't tell me how PAF is run I am sure you came up with this topic because you or one of your relative thinks he deserved it more than others because he woke up 5 AM and came back 5pm he is doing his job, If that was the thing than MM alam or Cecil and I can name a few others who deserved to be COAS. They never made it above Air Cdre.
Once I had a fight with X-man than found out he is one of my own , I told him that I got TJ, TBT,SBT,TIM and SJ from Syrian Gov in Arab war this was not for doing break dance on a flight line. So please don't ever make fun of me again, I have served my country with dignity and Honor without asking them for anything. Now if you want to continue this topic don't mention me or my quote.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Muradk !

Great comments. When you cannot beat someone with logic, beat him with Pathan mode.

From the introduction of yourself that you have given, I presume that you are an Ex-Airforce pilot. You are one of the people, whom I am extremely proud of. I salute your heroism, and will be happy cleaning your shoes or serving you tea, if you ever go for combat again. This is because, I love Pakistan.

But on the other hand, your being senior in age, and experience should have taught you patience and politeness. Because, these are the traits that will let you win an argument. But, sorry to say I cannot find any of these traits in your discussion. I think very high of our heroes, please dont disturb my image of them.

Who told you, that I get my information about PAF from some relative or a friend?

I am not your sub ordinate in the Air Force. So, kindly keep your Pathan modes to your self. Please counter my arguments with logical ones (if you have any). I am not here to win a war, neither are you. We are here to discuss, in the benefit of Pakistan. If we consider that we are perfect in our ways, and nothing needs to be changed, then we are wrong. We must accept our wrongs, discuss them out, and try to correct them.

Before pointing your fingers on somebody who dances on the flight lines, do remember, that if he did not dance on the flight lines, you would not have been able to go on that particular mission. No mission, no war hero. No TJ, TBT,SBT,TIM and SJ. Please respect every body's efforts.

I would request you not the resort to angry language in this forum. Otherwise, donot expect to be respected. Read the original post. No body here is pointing fingers to the professionalism of pilots of PAF. The purpose of this discussion is very clear and logical.

 

[araz]

@Muradk !

Great comments. When you cannot beat someone with logic, beat him with Pathan mode.

From the introduction of yourself that you have given, I presume that you are an Ex-Airforce pilot. You are one of the people, whom I am extremely proud of. I salute your heroism, and will be happy cleaning your shoes or serving you tea, if you ever go for combat again. This is because, I love Pakistan.

But on the other hand, your being senior in age, and experience should have taught you patience and politeness. Because, these are the traits that will let you win an argument. But, sorry to say I cannot find any of these traits in your discussion. I think very high of our heroes, please dont disturb my image of them.

Who told you, that I get my information about PAF from some relative or a friend?

I am not your sub ordinate in the Air Force. So, kindly keep your Pathan modes to your self. Please counter my arguments with logical ones (if you have any). I am not here to win a war, neither are you. We are here to discuss, in the benefit of Pakistan. If we consider that we are perfect in our ways, and nothing needs to be changed, then we are wrong. We must accept our wrongs, discuss them out, and try to correct them.

Before pointing your fingers on somebody who dances on the flight lines, do remember, that if he did not dance on the flight lines, you would not have been able to go on that particular mission. No mission, no war hero. No TJ, TBT,SBT,TIM and SJ. Please respect every body's efforts.

I would request you not the resort to angry language in this forum. Otherwise, donot expect to be respected. Read the original post. No body here is pointing fingers to the professionalism of pilots of PAF. The purpose of this discussion is very clear and logical.

Young Man
I started off liking the topic that you started, as there needs to be a change in some of PAFs workings. However, let me WARN you. Sir MuradK is a senior and valued member of this forum. He is a retd Air Commodore and was certainly not born yesterday. Any disrespect of this situation by ANYONE will result in them being bundled out of this forum post haste.
My sincerest advise to you is to carry out this debate with respect to your seniors.It would be a pity if we were to lose you as the topic started needs to be discussed in a cool manner without engaging in a fight with a senior member.
Now , if i were you, i would pay heed to what i have said. I am reporting this thread to the Mods. Any further infringement will result in you being shown the door!!!
MODS Please take Note.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@araz

I understand the situation now. I will certainly do the needful.

Thank you for your valuable advice.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Muradk Sb

Now that I know who you are, I feel sorry if I acted disrespectful towards you. It makes me happy to have a real expert on board.

Dont you think that :

- We must acknowledge that an Air Force is a lot more than fighter flying

- As technology is advancing, one person can be an expert on one job. So, is it not in our benefit to leave the experts' job to the expert?

- If pilots are the only people who are glorified, dont you think that other people will loose their hearts? and wont this affect the working of the Air Force, in this technologically competitive era ?

 

[Patriot]

@Muradk

Please do not quote examples from history or tradition. Because, historical trends and tradition is exactly what we are trying to change here. If you experienced something in your past, it does not mean the same should happen in the future. People like you want the young generation not to look forwards, and change for better. You only want them to look back, follow your silly traditions, and never change any thing. This kind of thinking has given Pakistan resistance to change and slow progress.

"You as a SQD Commander (fighter pilot) have Air Def, Planning , Training, Engg, Logistics, Personal, Medical,Social Club".
As opposed to what @Muradk thinks, I have first hand experience of the working of the PAF. A SQD Commander (fighter pilot) has all these departments under him, just because it is going on as such. Otherwise, no one wants to work under the illiterate person (as far as departments other than flying are concerned). The way engineering people, logistics people and administration people manipulate the poor SQD Commander is well known to all. He frequently has to go crying to the Base Commander (something that pilots are very fond of), and get his problems solved. This is exactly why pilots need a Base Commander to be a pilot.

"That is why a GDP is given preference over everyone else because he commands most departments than any 1 person".
Please donot misguide this forum. A GDP is given preference because, in an absurd way, the pilots want to keep ruling the Air Force. There are two ways to reach the top. One is to work hard, and show that you are at the top. The other way is to suppress everyone else, so you will automatically be at the top. This method is called Feudalism, which is exactly what happens in the Air Force.

"Just give you an example 1979 I took 9 Sqd to Kalabagh ... ".
This is a useless mention. Anybody working in any good organization or company knows, that you are the final authority in your own area of work. With your seemingly limited view of the world, you are considering your actions heroic. However, if you open you eyes, this happens daily, and everywhere.

"PANCAKE ...".
Another illogical example. A small boy would know, that if an engineer is leading a group of pilots, he cannot manage it well, until he is trained for it. And the same is true vice versa. The pilots that command departments that are not related to their field, face the same situation at the hands of engineers, administrators and logistics officers. They may use their seniority to shut people up, but that is what happens. And no pilot is bold enough to discuss this daily embarrassment.

"The Air Marshall who is the Chairman is a fighter pilot because he knows about fighter what time it takes one to get fixed who needs a fighter at what base".
You are again misguiding the forum. The Air Headquarters decides, who needs a fighter and when. The Chairman is not a part of the Air Force (he is a part of the Ministry of Defence). So, he does not make such decisions. His job is to ensure timely maintenance of whatever aircraft or equipment is sent to him. And a pilot is the most ill suited person for this job.

The Chairman knows what time it takes an aircraft to get fixed ?
He must be a Saint then. No one knows how much time it will take to get an aircraft fixed, unless the aircraft is opened up by the respective engineers and technicians, and a fault diagnosis is carried out. @Muradk, most kids know this, dont you?

DCAS (Administration) is a GDP, because he has all the administration capabilities ?
I would like to enlighten the forum that Administration in PAF is responsible for housing, security, medical services, accounts. @Muradk says that during a one or two years appointment as a Base Commander, a pilot can learn how the manage the housing, security, medical services and accounts of the WHOLE AIR FORCE. We really need a smiley here .

DCAS (Support) is a GDP, because he knows how it works?
For the forum, Support in PAF is responsible for supply of spare parts, fuel, clothing, vehicles and other things. This is called Logistics in most organizations. Any sensible person knows that logistics is an extremely specialized job, and people learn it over years.(First you have to study Logistics Management). It is the lifeline of any organization. @Muradk, I hope you dont claim that you can fly an aircraft without fuel, because a pilot can do anything ?

I cannot understand your last paragraph. If you would explain it in a more sensible manner (not considering that this is a comedy show going on), may be we all can benefit from it.

Please use proper tune or you will get banned.Sir Murad is a very respected member here.He is not a kid or armchair general.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Patriot

I acknowledge my mistake here. I did not know about Sir Murad's background.

Thank You for your suggestion ...

 

[araz]

@araz

I understand the situation now. I will certainly do the needful.

Thank you for your valuable advice.

Pakistan my heart.
My brother thank you very much for listening to this humble old man.People like MuradK , Xman , Jabar1, Pshamim, and fatman17 to name a few, are our asset and should be treated as such. They certainly deserve more respect than the morans sitting at the helm of affairs of this state.
Now back to the topic please.
I was pleasantly surprised to read the topic. I think whereas the operational branch of PAF is best left to PAF officials, there is certainly a scope to induct trained and appropriately educated technocrats in defence production. To take the debate further, I think PAF has done a stirling job with JF17 so far. they have advised, modified, andand supervised the thunder,s technical aspects till they have gotten a really good plane at a very manageable price. .But, would the same PAF people be as capable at running the production line and sorting the production glitches out, advertising and promoting the plane, and making sales possible by maintaining contacts with people in foreign Air forces. Even Sir MuradK will admit this is something that PAF does not do well. I dont mind if PAF inducts its own people and develops the relevant skills in them, but to the best of my knowledge , this is not done at present.
So whereas PAF s operational affairs are best left to PAF which is ideally suited to handle these jobs, the operational matters of defence production should be taken over by relevant qualified people. This would eventually be better for the country. UnlessPAF/Armed forces want to diversify into business management and handle their own affairs.
Within the armed forces, jobs od administration, like provision of housingto officers, looking after the welfare of Jawans etc, could also go to technocrats, as I dont think PAF trained pilots are suitable for jobs such as these. But to be honest, I dont know enough about the structure there to comment. Perhaps someone in the know would like to comment.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@araz

You are right.

This is an extremely competitive era. To stay ahead in competition, we have to focus on each and every aspect of our management, which includes our forces. Enabling the right people to handle the right job is one of the first steps.

 

[araz]

@araz

You are right.

This is an extremely competitive era. To stay ahead in competition, we have to focus on each and every aspect of our management, which includes our forces. Enabling the right people to handle the right job is one of the first steps.

Pakistan my heart.
Brother, I fully agree with your post. However, I need to know what your thoughts are regarding what you want ot change in PAF. As to my vision, i want to see a lean mean fighting machine, which is run by thoroughly professional people.For this the running of the force and the Administative side probably need to be separated. I dont know what the technical problems with this would be and how this would impact on security matters.
However, my strong belief is that the defence production should be taken away from the forces and be run on commercial basis. i also believe for the longevity of the sector, it should have commercial projects as well to keep it going in case of defence contracts drying up. This way,we may be able to employ people who are competant to run this show and expand the horizons of Pakistani defence exports. I dont however, want to see defence production in the hands of the Governmentas anything going to the governmentwill eventually be counterproductive. Perhaps an independant body could contract out services of the chief administrator to a suitable person on a contract for 3 yrs and guage his performance and subsequent progression of it based on his performance.
What do other members think.
Araz

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@araz

As far as PAF is concerned, it should consist of highly professional people, who know their job. Each person should be an expert in his profession, and do only what he is trained for. The top leadership should be open for all, and a solid selection criteria should be made, based on leadership and administrative skills, and not a specific skill (like fighter flying).

And you are right for the defence industry too. I think it should be run like a business, and not a military affair. Non Government people can manage the business better. If run like a business, the efficiency will automatically go up. Because there will be money and reputation at stake. And then, exports will be given due importance, again because of money and reputaion.

Forces should act like customers only. For example, take USA. Lockheed Martin is a non-government company. USAF is its customer.

 

[sergente rehan]

This thread is becoming very interesting!

i'm just an ordinary civilian so from my point of view our Armed Forces are well organized and doing well their job! maybe there are some problems which must be fixed but overall i simply can't give any statement against them because they deserve our respect...maybe i'm very one sided and very patriotic, i never accept any statement against Pakistan or it's armed forces and i think majority of Pakistani civilians also think in the same way...the only thing that our Armed forces must take in mind that we love them and will always support them so they must work hard and do their job in the best way they can(as they are doing).

Coming back to the topic, their are many fields in the civilian sector which retired Air Force personal can join...for example PIA! i simply don't understand why PIA is going in loss everytime? if they are runed by any ex-Air force man it could be a good advantage for us. bcz Armed Forces personal have a very good training and principles that an ordinary civilian may don't have specially some corrupt politicians will never have these guts!

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@sergente rehan

You are perfectly right. We have to respect our forces, and will die for their respect.

But does this mean, we close all doors for improvement?. If there are certain flaws in the management structure of our forces, we should correct them immediately.

I would dare to differ from your opinion, that Ex-Armed Forces people are suited for working in civilian sector. For example, military style of dealing with a subordinate is to shout at him, and if he does not obey you punish him hard. Is this style suitable for running a commercial organization? (PIA for example). Try doing this in PIA, and the workers will go on strike causing millions in daily losses.

Our military men/women are great people, who do what no one of us can do. They give their lives for the country, and we sleep in peace because they are awake. But, running a civilian department, or a commercial organization, is just not suited to their temperaments. This is one of the main reasons why Martial Law is not considered good for a country. Armies are good, as long as they do what an army is supposed to do.

 

[sergente rehan]

@sergente rehan

You are perfectly right. We have to respect our forces, and will die for their respect.

But does this mean, we close all doors for improvement?. If there are certain flaws in the management structure of our forces, we should correct them immediately.

I would dare to differ from your opinion, that Ex-Armed Forces people are suited for working in civilian sector. For example, military style of dealing with a subordinate is to shout at him, and if he does not obey you punish him hard. Is this style suitable for running a commercial organization? (PIA for example). Try doing this in PIA, and the workers will go on strike causing millions in daily losses.

Our military men/women are great people, who do what no one of us can do. They give their lives for the country, and we sleep in peace because they are awake. But, running a civilian department, or a commercial organization, is just not suited to their temperaments. This is one of the main reasons why Martial Law is not considered good for a country. Armies are good, as long as they do what an army is supposed to do.

Nope, obviously we must improve the management structure of our forces and also of our civilian sectors.

regarding PIA dude just look at this mess....do you really think that everything is working correctly in this sector? i've some serious concerns about it....maybe you are right that military men/women don't have the right temperaments for the civilian sector but atleast they can fix some serious problems that some corrupt civilians will never be able to do! i'm in the favour of military men because they will punish every mistake done by their subordinates and those who are not working properly must be punished. If you want some improvements you make sure that rules and regulations are not broken.
I read that in the past when PIA was under PAF administration(some PAF personal was running the company), it made world records, best service offered, the flights were never late, the business of PIA was at it's heighest peak! so to me there is nothing wrong if any Ex-PAF personal runs PIA again. I'm not saying that all civilian sectors must be run by military men/women but some of civilian sector can be handle by them. The Police department is another example.

 

[araz]

[

QUOTE=pakistanMYheart;411803]@araz

As far as PAF is concerned, it should consist of highly professional people, who know their job. Each person should be an expert in his profession, and do only what he is trained for. The top leadership should be open for all, and a solid selection criteria should be made, based on leadership and administrative skills, and not a specific skill (like fighter flying).

All right
Please explain to me what is wrong in the current setup. i know for sure that PAF top brass through the yrs of leadership training is quite capable of handling the top operational jobs. As you progress up the ladder, you also take courses and air war college tests all your capabilities to the maximum. I dont agree that the PAF top job should be open top non PAF personnel , as it is a recipe for disaster. The cultrure in PAF as well as all armed forces is of one man leading the force. What if the top man is a failure. You just cannot afford to take that sort of risk with the armed forces.in PAF thisa man is one of 5 or 6 top ontenders for the job. No civilian will ever get the support and the loyalty of the top Airforce or any armed force branch like a man whom everyone knows and has been a part of the setup for 3 decades. I dont even understand what qualities would this new outsider bring in to PAF or any Armed forces branch?
So all in all, whereas i agree to your opinion about technocratic leadership for defence productions, I dont agree with the same notion forPAF leadership. it would be a disaster.
By the wayWhy do you want to change the established set up and what in your view is the deficiencies of the current setup?
WaSalam
Araz