LCA Tejas far better than China-Pak JF-17 fighters, says IAF Chief

[Vapour]

@airomerix Your thoughts?

 

[airomerix]

@airomerix Your thoughts?

It's not very simple but once you study both the organisations, one observes significant faultlines right from the planning stage.

The current budgeting numbers of IAF does not allow her to acquire Tejas AND MRCA at the same time. They will have to kill one. And as it was predicted, they have killed MRCA. The kind of blunders and haphazard shopping they did after PAF's initial F-16 acquisition included a random purchase of Mirage 2000s, Mig 29s, Jaguars and later Su's. They are bleeding money and it is obviously better for Pakistan.

The reason I quoted the analysis above is, the success of the Tejas vis a vis JF-17 is linked to the sustainment and upgradation budget. Right now Tejas is neither combat ready nor combat effective. There are dozens of mission-critical systems that belong to different countries such as France, US, Israel, Russia. And they do not talk to eachother, neither they will.

Apparently, IAF knew Mig 21 bison in and out. Yet the Israeli made Elta RWR system was not even remotely effective. The chaff dispenser of the Mig 21bis shot down has been found intact with no magazines of chaff dispensed. This is a typical 'integration' challenge. And it is never found on the first day/month/year. It requires years of operations till you get your system up and running with all or major troubleshooting documented in the manual as written by test pilots.

Having said all of that, the IAF's plan of 83 Tejas MK1A induction will be completed by 2029 IF things go as planned. Which they never will. Thanks to DRDO red tapes. They barely delivered 6 jets last year for all the nonsensical reasons.

Block 3 on the other hand has been on trials for a year now. It has undergone rigorous trials with all the weapon systems it is slated to carry. PAF will have no problem absorbing it simply because PAF's supply chain is fairly lean.

 

[Cookie Monster]

It's not very simple but once you study both the organisations, one observes significant faultlines right from the planning stage.

The current budgeting numbers of IAF does not allow her to acquire Tejas AND MRCA at the same time. They will have to kill one. And as it was predicted, they have killed MRCA.

Tejas may have its issues...and while it's fun taking digs at it riding around on a truck and what not...one thing we cannot ignore is that even with its myriad of issues...it allows India to build local/indigenous capabilities at some level. We have an example of China...just a few decades ago they were making not so stellar planes...they kept at it...and slowly but surely got better at it. Personally I would much rather prefer that India had gone for MRCA.

Apparently, IAF knew Mig 21 bison in and out. Yet the Israeli made Elta RWR system was not even remotely effective. The chaff dispenser of the Mig 21bis shot down has been found intact with no magazines of chaff dispensed. This is a typical 'integration' challenge. And it is never found on the first day/month/year. It requires years of operations till you get your system up and running with all or major troubleshooting documented in the manual as written by test pilots.

One would think that they would have tested this in some mock exercise at some point. Chaff not dispensing...and finding that out during actual combat...that seems almost criminal on the part of ppl in charge of sourcing, integrating, and testing those Israeli chaff dispensers.

The kind of blunders and haphazard shopping they did after PAF's initial F-16 acquisition included a random purchase of Mirage 2000s, Mig 29s, Jaguars and later Su's.

As far as I can tell...I think PA made similar mistakes with its tank purchases a couple decades ago. I hope that going forward all three branches of armed forces make as efficient use of funds as possible because unlike India...Pak doesn't have the kind of money that allows it to be wasteful.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

It's not very simple but once you study both the organisations, one observes significant faultlines right from the planning stage.

The current budgeting numbers of IAF does not allow her to acquire Tejas AND MRCA at the same time. They will have to kill one. And as it was predicted, they have killed MRCA. The kind of blunders and haphazard shopping they did after PAF's initial F-16 acquisition included a random purchase of Mirage 2000s, Mig 29s, Jaguars and later Su's. They are bleeding money and it is obviously better for Pakistan.

The reason I quoted the analysis above is, the success of the Tejas vis a vis JF-17 is linked to the sustainment and upgradation budget. Right now Tejas is neither combat ready nor combat effective. There are dozens of mission-critical systems that belong to different countries such as France, US, Israel, Russia. And they do not talk to eachother, neither they will.

Apparently, IAF knew Mig 21 bison in and out. Yet the Israeli made Elta RWR system was not even remotely effective. The chaff dispenser of the Mig 21bis shot down has been found intact with no magazines of chaff dispensed. This is a typical 'integration' challenge. And it is never found on the first day/month/year. It requires years of operations till you get your system up and running with all or major troubleshooting documented in the manual as written by test pilots.

Having said all of that, the IAF's plan of 83 Tejas MK1A induction will be completed by 2029 IF things go as planned. Which they never will. Thanks to DRDO red tapes. They barely delivered 6 jets last year for all the nonsensical reasons.

Block 3 on the other hand has been on trials for a year now. It has undergone rigorous trials with all the weapon systems it is slated to carry. PAF will have no problem absorbing it simply because PAF's supply chain is fairly lean.

It's not very simple but once you study both the organisations, one observes significant faultlines right from the planning stage.

Agreed! but now again depends. India was having two options - joint venture or Indigenous made. If India was gone for joint venture then was not able to build aero industry and infrastructure in India. Also, capability to make better aircrafts in the future, just Chinese did in the past.

Again I would rate the decision would be a mile stone of future aircraft's in India. Wherein, Pakistan has yet to start from scratch, design and develop any aircraft otherwise will be end by manufacturing the OEM products in the future.

The current budgeting numbers of IAF does not allow her to acquire Tejas AND MRCA at the same time. They will have to kill one. And as it was predicted, they have killed MRCA. The kind of blunders and haphazard shopping they did after PAF's initial F-16 acquisition included a random purchase of Mirage 2000s, Mig 29s, Jaguars and later Su's. They are bleeding money and it is obviously better for Pakistan.

Was India having any option in 1980s and 1990s? Also, IAF doctrine is based PLAAF and PAF, Chinese was started inducting the more and better aircraft's. IAF was not having any option left.

Note : Process for purchasing the Jaguar fighter was started a long before in 1960 and 1970.

The reason I quoted the analysis above is, the success of the Tejas vis a vis JF-17 is linked to the sustainment and upgradation budget. Right now Tejas is neither combat ready nor combat effective. There are dozens of mission-critical systems that belong to different countries such as France, US, Israel, Russia. And they do not talk to eachother, neither they will.

Again, India is having CAB and even if India was developing JF 17 then CAB was never allow to induct JF 17 block 1 and even IAF was hesitating for block 2. It is a really of India and IAF because along with PAF, PLAAF is a bigger challenge.

Block 3 on the other hand has been on trials for a year now. It has undergone rigorous trials with all the weapon systems it is slated to carry. PAF will have no problem absorbing it simply because PAF's supply chain is fairly lean

There is no comparison actually, Chinese are having years of experience to develop aircrafts compare to India.

 

[KaiserX]

83 LCAs will take atleast another decade at the minimum... by then we will have Project AZM/ J-31s in a sizeable numbers backed by JF-17 block 3/4, and most likely J-10cs and F-16s as well.

The LCAs would be blown to smitherines.

 

[airomerix]

It's not very simple but once you study both the organisations, one observes significant faultlines right from the planning stage.

Agreed! but now again depends. India was having two options - joint venture or Indigenous made. If India was gone for joint venture then was not able to build aero industry and infrastructure in India. Also, capability to make better aircrafts in the future, just Chinese did in the past.

Again I would rate the decision would be a mile stone of future aircraft's in India. Wherein, Pakistan has yet to start from scratch, design and develop any aircraft otherwise will be end by manufacturing the OEM products in the future.

What you're saying is objectively true. But in the grand scheme of things, it remains meaningless for a number of reasons. If India develops an aircraft from scratch spanning 25 years. Later takes 10 years to field it. In this stipulated generation of 35 years, it will not serve India any meaningful purpose except consume the resources and lose out on knowledge base due to brain drain (since its a public-partner partnership). While PAF doesn't have this challenge. The major knowledge base is confined within the walls of the air force establishment. Currently, PAF manufactures 58% of the JF-17, and this is going to only increase until we reach the saturation point and only critical components will have to be imported.

Was India having any option in 1980s and 1990s? Also, IAF doctrine is based PLAAF and PAF, Chinese was started inducting the more and better aircraft's. IAF was not having any option left.

Note : Process for purchasing the Jaguar fighter was started a long before in 1960 and 1970.

Many countries engage in such spree. Even PAF did with A-5s. That is not the point. The challenge is, this has crippled the IAF's logisitics capability and hence the numbers of IAF aircraft sustainment remain low since decades. The Rafale will be worse. I can tell you that.

Again, India is having CAB and even if India was developing JF 17 then CAB was never allow to induct JF 17 block 1 and even IAF was hesitating for block 2. It is a really of India and IAF because along with PAF, PLAAF is a bigger challenge.

This is where the problem persists. CAB will be fine with flying coffins but not Block 1s. This is where Pakistan was different. We inducted Block 1s, trained the entire workforce with the basics of the aircraft, tested the aircraft in battle (op Swift Retort, Ops in tribal areas, Anti Sea) and now we're inducting the Block 3 that would potentially disrupt the fighting capability of entire 4th generation fleet of IAF minus Rafales. Even the rafales will fall short if they lose the support of AWACS and other supporting air assets including other fighters. Once again, PAF will be able to maintain the local air superiority. The PL-15s are dubbed as AWACS killer. Watch out.

Block 3 on the other hand has been on trials for a year now. It has undergone rigorous trials with all the weapon systems it is slated to carry. PAF will have no problem absorbing it simply because PAF's supply chain is fairly lean

There is no comparison actually, Chinese are having years of experience to develop aircrafts compare to India.

Doesnt matter. The end result is and will be the same. The IAF will have to pick which PAF aircraft shot it down. F-16s or JF-17s.

 

[Ali_Baba]

This is where the problem persists. CAB will be fine with flying coffins but not Block 1s. This is where Pakistan was different. We inducted Block 1s, trained the entire workforce with the basics of the aircraft, tested the aircraft in battle (op Swift Retort, Ops in tribal areas, Anti Sea) and now we're inducting the Block 3 that would potentially disrupt the fighting capability of entire 4th generation fleet of IAF minus Rafales. Even the rafales will fall short if they lose the support of AWACS and other supporting air assets including other fighters. Once again, PAF will be able to maintain the local air superiority. The PL-15s are dubbed as AWACS killer. Watch out.

@airomerix
Why do you feel that the JF17 Block III cannot match or surpass the Rafale in the Air to Air Dominance game? With a better AESA GaN radar, PL15, integrated modern ECM, surely it surpases Rafale now?

I get that for long range missions, Rafale outclasses the JF17, and same for strike missions where it can have a bigger payload.. but for A-A, surely they are peers now?

 

[ziaulislam]

IAF Chief RKS Bhadauria speaking to ANI on Thursday. (Photo/ANI)


"Order of 83 aircraft is huge. When this kind of order takes shape in the next 8-9 years, the entire ecosystem will get set up.

Basically he agrees that this number will onoy conclude by 2030 in best case senrio

So by 2030
India will have 120 LCA/6sq
120 mirage/mig29/6sq
270 su30/12 sq
72/4 sq rafale assuming they go for second batch

I think india will keep jaugaurs as well to leep numbers4-6sq
Almost 650 jets/28-34 squardons depending upon jauguars flying & rafale 6-8b second batch

 

[GumNaam]

tejas is far better than both darth vader's tie-fighter and luke skywalker's x-wing - COMBINED!!!

 

[ziaulislam]

@airomerix
Why do you feel that the JF17 Block III cannot match or surpass the Rafale in the Air to Air Dominance game? With a better AESA GaN radar, PL15, integrated modern ECM, surely it surpases Rafale now?

I get that for long range missions, Rafale outclasses the JF17, and same for strike missions where it can have a bigger payload.. but for A-A, surely they are peers now?

GaN modules will give it 33% power efficiency
Thats about it. Jf17 radar might still have lower power output then rafale

Then we have to talk about sensors, rafale has lot more senses e.g MAWs rafale has 360 coverage i doubt jf17 has that coverage though we saw a forward MAWs
Lastly sensor fusion might be better or not really we dont know

And then lot goes into software as well
Wth small diameter bombs coming payload may be of lesser importance then before
4-6 SDB(200lb) on 1 hard point may be as good as 4-500lb on 4 hard points

 

[Kingslayerr]

@airomerix
Why do you feel that the JF17 Block III cannot match or surpass the Rafale in the Air to Air Dominance game? With a better AESA GaN radar, PL15, integrated modern ECM, surely it surpases Rafale now?

I get that for long range missions, Rafale outclasses the JF17, and same for strike missions where it can have a bigger payload.. but for A-A, surely they are peers now?

How can you say that a single engine lightweight fighter aircrafts AESA radar can provide better coverage than a twin engine twin engine jet generating more power? Because JF-17 uses GaN radar doesn't mean that rafale using GaAS is not good.
2. Rafale also have a modern EW suit integrated i dont see any reason why it cannot by at par or might probably be even better than the jf-17.
3. Yes PL-15 is one place where i would agree with you but still i believe the AESA rafale is using due to more power provides by twin engines it will probably have a longer range.
Conclusion is that rafale is a beautiful yet a very very lethal bird it can easily tackle any jet in PAF inventory except the 52s and jf-17B3s. As of now PAF can only counter rafales through better tactic's standoff jammers and AWACS. And not to forget you're trying to push a lightweight jet to fulfill a task meant for a medium weight, more agile, more powerful jet. Just my personal opinion.

 

[mourning sage]

Actions speak louder than words. If it were true, you wouldn't have run with your tail between your legs to get the Rafael

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Tejas better than JF-17 ....

..... and IAF shot down PAF F-16 with a MiG-21 (without firing a single a missile).

Above is the conclusion of this thread, which came from the land of the deluded.

 

[GumNaam]

Tejas better than JF-17 ....

..... and IAF shot down PAF F-16 with a MiG-21 (without firing a single a missile).

The above the conclusion of this thread, which came from the land of the deluded.

joker monkey abhi-none-done simply took off his oxygen mask & showed that excuse of a mustache of his & the PAF F16 pilots went into an uncontrollable laughing spree thus losing control of the F16 & crashing!