Kudankulam a lesson in building new nuclear plants

[illuminatidinesh]

Why is it worth mentioning that these were Christian NGOs?

What is the necessity of the local church to host and gather people when there was curfew in place ?
What was a Church Father doing canvasing people to gather for protest?
Why is the organizer mislead people when even Hon. Former President APJ Kalam says plant was indeed safe?
Why did the IB name very explicitly the CHRISTIAN NGOS?
Well I gave the reasons I know of.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@anant_s
@gslv mk3
@Abingdonboy

I was uncomfortable at the presumption implicit in the posts of two of our most knowledgeable and prolific members, with the best and most technically sounds posts. The reason I raised this issue is encapsulated in the posts above by you; @anant_s is included as he had also answered:

1. There is a proven link between the agitation by the locals and the delays to the project.
2. There is a proven link between these protests and the NGOs, many of which, in dealing with the welfare and interests of their constituents, took extreme and radical views on nuclear energy as a source of energy. They aped the views and actions of activists in Europe and in Japan who opposed nuclear energy especially after recent debacles.
3. Many - most - of the NGOs were oriented towards Christianity, as this is one of the areas where Christians are located in large numbers.
4. The source of income for most NGOs is government funding or charity, either from a trust or foundation of the founder or a promoter, or generic charities.
5. These Christian oriented NGOs derived their income from charitable grants from Christian foundations.

And that is all. There is no further link that could, or should be established. We may consider their actions, especially of the activists directing actions in the field, as retrograde and Luddite in character, but that about is as complex as we need to make it. There is no link that exists between these dimwitted actions and the frustrated desires of western nuclear equipment manufacturers, and to think that the intention was to sabotage the project to allow the entry of a western equivalent is to think up a conspiracy theory more absurd than any that we have accused others of holding.

It also smacks of the xenophobia that is attracted by people of Abrahamic religions, especially when they act childishly or stupidly.

I hope you will read these comments in the spirit in which they are made, and not see them as condescending or seeking to instruct.

What is the necessity of the local church to host and gather people when there was curfew in place ?

Stupidity, and a misplaced sense of duty.

What was a Church Father doing canvasing people to gather for protest?

His sense that his parishioners were in physical danger.

Why is the organizer mislead people when even Hon. Former President APJ Kalam says plant was indeed safe?

What misleading people? To say that a nuclear plant is not safe is not misleading, it is simple fact. As for Kalam, he was a leading missile technologist and an outstanding personality, but he is not, and was not God. Opposing his view is not blasphemy or sin.

Why did the IB name very explicitly the CHRISTIAN NGOS?

Precisely because they were leading the agitation. The IB did its job. The objection is not to pointing out that Christian NGOs were involved, it was to suppose that their Christianity had anything to do with it. Or that western interests were backing them for either keeping India back or for a possible substitution of their technology for the Russian.

Well I gave the reasons I know of.

I do not know what reasons you are referring to. If it is these questions above, they have nothing important to reveal to us through their answers.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

His sense that his parishioners were in physical danger.

And also paying money?

What misleading people? To say that a nuclear plant is not safe is not misleading, it is simple fact. As for Kalam, he was a leading missile technologist and an outstanding personality, but he is not, and was not God. Opposing his view is not blasphemy or sin.

APJ Kalam was not a God but any day I would listen to his words keenly than a guy with vested interest and I guess Kalam has more knowledge than any of these people I mentioned.
I wonder how a Church Father has more knowledge and information than Mr Kalam?

Precisely because they were leading the agitation. The IB did its job. The objection is not to pointing out that Christian NGOs were involved, it was to suppose that their Christianity had anything to do with it. Or that western interests were backing them for either keeping India back or for a possible substitution of their technology for the Russian.

The IB doesnt make report everywhere there is agitation. The issue is not Christianity but in the name of Christianity doing something else, the west did what u said but through these NGO's.

I do not know what reasons you are referring to. If it is these questions above, they have nothing important to reveal to us through their answers.

U are correct nothing new but I dint object to the roles these missionaries played in these agitations.

Stupidity, and a misplaced sense of duty.

Common Sir people were getting killed in police firing, I wonder what exactly the sense of duty he had?

 

[DesiGuy1403]

LOL...

While reading the discussion, I am reminded of elections couple of years back where the local churches were openly supporting the Christian guy and asking all the congregation to vote for the preferred choice of church.

If I bring it up, I will be called a bigot and racist but the pastors who were preaching this inside the church are Secooolar..

 

[illuminatidinesh]

And that is all. There is no further link that could, or should be established. We may consider their actions, especially of the activists directing actions in the field, as retrograde and Luddite in character, but that about is as complex as we need to make it. There is no link that exists between these dimwitted actions and the frustrated desires of western nuclear equipment manufacturers, and to think that the intention was to sabotage the project to allow the entry of a western equivalent is to think up a conspiracy theory more absurd than any that we have accused others of holding.

I Kindly agree and disagree to your points
There may be or may not be a link but most these NGO's are funded by foreign establishments . However why are you so stubborn in not believing there is no sabotage?
I worked in a NGO sir , I did auditing for NGOs around in the field of disability. I have seen many foreign establishments helping our people and same time I have seen many of Local NGO's misusing the funds for their personal gains. It may still be possible that certain western powers did misdirect these people...
Regards

 

[Joe Shearer]

And also paying money?

Where does money come into it? He is paid by the Church, not by parishioners.

APJ Kalam was not a God but any day I would listen to his words keenly than a guy with vested interest and I guess Kalam has more knowledge than any of these people I mentioned.
I wonder how a Church Father has more knowledge and information than Mr Kalam?

They were not pitting their own knowledge against Kalam. They were going by the opinion of experts on safety in nuclear plants, experts with distinguished pedigrees, and specialised in this area.

Kalam had his limitations and let us not get into the tiresome south Asian habit of making demi-gods of whoever we like. Kalam was a great missile technologist. He was an inspirational leader. There ends the matter.

The IB doesnt make report everywhere there is agitation.

The IB makes a report everywhere there is an agitation. Their job is to make reports even before there is an agitation.

The issue is not Christianity but in the name of Christianity doing something else, the west did what u said but through these NGO's.

I don't agree. We are building up a speculational edifice out of our prejudices.

U are correct nothing new but I dint object to the roles these missionaries played in these agitations.

Please distinguish between missionary, priest and NGO activist. These are not identical.

Common Sir people were getting killed in police firing, I wonder what exactly the sense of duty he had?

How can you - or I, or any third person - enter into someone's mind and examine his sense of duty critically? Think of what you said. Was it sensible?

 

[illuminatidinesh]

How can you - or I, or any third person - enter into someone's mind and examine his sense of duty critically? Think of what you said. Was it sensible?

I could go on refute every point you made however out of respect let us end this conversation. You have ur opinion and I have mine.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I Kindly agree and disagree to your points
There may be or may not be a link but most these NGO's are funded by foreign establishments . However why are you so stubborn in not believing there is no sabotage?

Naturally. The NGO I worked in was funded by USAID. Did that make them agents of the CIA?

I worked in a NGO sir , I did auditing for NGOs around in the field of disability. I have seen many foreign establishments helping our people and same time I have seen many of Local NGO's misusing the funds for their personal gains. It may still be possible that certain western powers did misdirect these people...

I am happy to read what you just wrote. That bears out half my argument. The foreign charity administrators are busy spreading their money where they think it will do the most good, and making sure it does not get misused or abused. They are not in the pay of their spy agencies. They actually in many cases object to the activities of these agencies.

Local activists misusing the funds for their personal gains is commonplace. I know of very, very NGOs which are 'efficient' in using the funds allotted. Most of them make sure of their own income and comforts first, before tending to the supposed objects.

BUT you have exposed the activities that exist, AND THEY DO NOT INCLUDE ANY ELEMENT OF FOREIGN ECONOMIC INFLUENCE OVER LOCAL ACTIVITIES.

Regards

I think we are becoming far too narrow-minded in dealing with these officious busybodies. They are tiresome and irritating, but not the tools of western economic interests.

Regards,

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Foreign NGOs always have an Agenda

NGO work is not charity work ; it is business; a source of income and employment

They are called ECO terrorists

They want people to remain poor and unemployed as long as their agenda is fulfilled
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@Joe Shearer please read this FBI definition of eco terrorists

Eco-terrorism is defined by the Federal Bureau of Investigation as "the use or threatened use of violence of a criminal nature against people or property by an environmentally oriented, subnational group for environmental-political reasons, or aimed at an audience beyond the target, often of a symbolic nature."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-terrorism

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@Joe Shearer

In economics there is something called Oppurtunity costs

When projects are delayed ; the country' s economy suffers badly

Are you aware of the damage that UPA 2 environment ministry AND NGO s caused to
the economy AND to the Public sector Banks

Are you aware of the HUGE NPAs of PSU Banks

Since projects were indefinitely delayed ; they became commercially unviable

And today The Govt is spending LAKHS of crores to help PSU banks
otherwise they will become bankrupt

This money could have have been spent else where -- rural development and
social infrastructure etc etc

 

[anant_s]

@Joe Shearer
Sir, i can't say for others, but one big reason of coming to this forum for me, are enriching interaction with members like you. i won't miss them for anything.

I ain't as young as some other members and at this age of mine, when i often take refuge of my religious beliefs, to seek inner self, i realize more and more that evil lies within one himself and not in other beliefs or people.
For this reason alone, i tend to keep quiet whenever religion is brought to discussions. Call it chickening out of debates and arguments, but trying to prove other person belief as hollow, is essentially showing shallowness of own mind. Life is short to seek God by following a path of belief/faith, i don't know how people find courage and time to demean other.
Coming to topic you raised, i mentioned in my post, that perhaps we could've left the part mentioning religious affinity of groups, which led the protest. I've no shame in saying, i regret that part in my post.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By education and training, i've been told to argue with a person on technical grounds and try to calm him down by addressing concerns. However in my professional career, i've found that this is most difficult thing to do. Not because i have dearth of facts to tell a person but because the other party may not be competent to accept those. How do you make a person who has no formal education about reactor meltdown frequency for KK is one log scale decade better than IAEA acceptable value or how there are redundant emergency water injection system. How do you tell that man, that a fukushima Daaichi like event cannot occur here, even if there is a bigger earthquake or tsunami.
How do you then move on?

In case of KK, when the case first came to Madras High Court, the defendant put forward argument that while designing, siting and start of construction, all laws of land have been complied with and hence the very basis of case being registered in faulty as no law is broken. The Court dismissed the case.
Afterwards, the judgement was challenged in Honorable Supreme Court of India, the bench took cognizance of one important fact and judgement of lower court. It said " Judges acknowledged the fact that they DIDNOT have correct technical knowledge of the nuances of Nuclear power and hence the lower court has given judgement based on the fact that the no law was violated".
This looks correct in book of law, but the protesters were trying to prove (or believed firmly) that N Power is not safe and being the local people living in the area for many years, unless satisfactory answers were given, SC felt, it would be against the principles of natural justice, to go ahead with commissioning of plant.
The two main concerns of the litigants were:
1. Inherent safety of plant and its impact on surroundings.
2. What happens to the waste generated?

Based on this, judges constituted an Expert Group, to respond on fears of people and submit report.
the report mentions in its starting few pages, that initially people were not ready to even listen to what they had to say and had only one agenda, viz close the plant.

Slowly they turned around and saw the facts being put up and the plant could be commissioned.
You can read the full report here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However one question still remains. Were local people right by making plant their hostage?
If we take their right to ask for answers for something in their neighborhood, they were right.
Were their methods correct, i'm not so sure.

I won't go into what was the role of NGOs or local leaders etc in this agitation, for its the role of law enforcement agencies, but when it comes to changing an ecosystem people have been living in (& this is true for any industry or infra project), i suppose, it remains responsibility of industry and scientific community, to convince people, that it is for their own good, beyond doubt. For this, i believe is the only way forward.

 

[Levina]

Where are all those Christian NGOs complaining about how dangerous this plant would be now?

@Star Wars @arp2041 @Levina @Parul @noksss @skyisthelimit @Stephen Cohen

Kicked out of India? Lol

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer
Sir, i can't say for others, but one big reason of coming to this forum for me, are enriching interaction with members like you. i won't miss them for anything.

I ain't as young as some other members and at this age of mine, when i often take refuge of my religious beliefs, to seek inner self, i realize more and more that evil lies within one himself and not in other beliefs or people.
For this reason alone, i tend to keep quiet whenever religion is brought to discussions. Call it chickening out of debates and arguments, but trying to prove other person belief as hollow, is essentially showing shallowness of own mind. Life is short to seek God by following a path of belief/faith, i don't know how people find courage and time to demean other.
Coming to topic you raised, i mentioned in my post, that perhaps we could've left the part mentioning religious affinity of groups, which led the protest. I've no shame in saying, i regret that part in my post.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By education and training, i've been told to argue with a person on technical grounds and try to calm him down by addressing concerns. However in my professional career, i've found that this is most difficult thing to do. Not because i have dearth of facts to tell a person but because the other party may not be competent to accept those. How do you make a person who has no formal education about reactor meltdown frequency for KK is one log scale decade better than IAEA acceptable value or how there are redundant emergency water injection system. How do you tell that man, that a fukushima Daaichi like event cannot occur here, even if there is a bigger earthquake or tsunami.
How do you then move on?

In case of KK, when the case first came to Madras High Court, the defendant put forward argument that while designing, siting and start of construction, all laws of land have been complied with and hence the very basis of case being registered in faulty as no law is broken. The Court dismissed the case.
Afterwards, the judgement was challenged in Honorable Supreme Court of India, the bench took cognizance of one important fact and judgement of lower court. It said " Judges acknowledged the fact that they DIDNOT have correct technical knowledge of the nuances of Nuclear power and hence the lower court has given judgement based on the fact that the no law was violated".
This looks correct in book of law, but the protesters were trying to prove (or believed firmly) that N Power is not safe and being the local people living in the area for many years, unless satisfactory answers were given, SC felt, it would be against the principles of natural justice, to go ahead with commissioning of plant.
The two main concerns of the litigants were:
1. Inherent safety of plant and its impact on surroundings.
2. What happens to the waste generated?

Based on this, judges constituted an Expert Group, to respond on fears of people and submit report.
the report mentions in its starting few pages, that initially people were not ready to even listen to what they had to say and had only one agenda, viz close the plant.

Slowly they turned around and saw the facts being put up and the plant could be commissioned.
You can read the full report here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However one question still remains. Were local people right by making plant their hostage?
If we take their right to ask for answers for something in their neighborhood, they were right.
Were their methods correct, i'm not so sure.

I won't go into what was the role of NGOs or local leaders etc in this agitation, for its the role of law enforcement agencies, but when it comes to changing an ecosystem people have been living in (& this is true for any industry or infra project), i suppose, it remains responsibility of industry and scientific community, to convince people, that it is for their own good, beyond doubt. For this, i believe is the only way forward.

I can say cheerfully and with a clear conscience that your post is the best so far, and I completely agree with every section. My issue, of course, as you have astutely guessed, and as you have very tactfully placed in your last section, in a most innocuous manner, is on the question of people having a right to decide what is to happen in their neighbourhood.

In an earlier case, I encountered and was quite put off by the responses of these NGOs; it was in the matter of making closed toilets for beach-dwellers on the Chennai beaches. The enfuriating point of view of these daffy busybodies was that defecating in the open was the natural way. NO amount of pointing out the extra burden it placed on women had any effect on these self-righteous and self-appointed guardians of the fisherfolk.

Here the scientific community and, more to the point, the administration made not the slightest effort to persuade the local people about the safety factors built into the plant, and instead, made some high-handed statements and were shocked when these had no effect. And that lay at the root of the influence that the NGOs had over the local people.

None of this had anything to do with western attempts to influence the building of the plant. There were no such attempts. In these cases, it is well to use Occam's Razor.

 

[anant_s]

Kicked out of India? Lol

back from a long Hiatus madamji.
Good to see you back!!

Here the scientific community and, more to the point, the administration made not the slightest effort to persuade the local people about the safety factors built into the plant, and instead, made some high-handed statements and were shocked when these had no effect. And that lay at the root of the influence that the NGOs had over the local people.

Kindly excuse for this rather crude (& distasteful to many) example i'm quoting. In 80s, Government realized they have to do something about population explosion and since sex was a taboo word for our sansakari society, it meant we kept on pushing responsibility of sex education from one department to other. Things like use of contraceptives, while everyone including health agencies and department realized, was essential, nobody knew how exactly to tell this.
Then volunteers, NGOs and media and even Cine personalities came around and tried to convey this message in sensitive manner. While all this was met with shock (Wasn't easy for a young man to go to a chemist shop and ask for....), slowly society accepted this. Off course TV and print media had a huge role to play in this change, but we had to break our mental setup and think afresh.
In context of what you have mentioned, KK isn't the last case, where people will challenge, what happens that affects them. So some armchair experts sitting in offices or conference halls, can't really decide on what should be. Sometimes you have to go to a common man in street and put your point across. Take his concern in account.
In a lot of areas we are still carrying our Raj time mentality of shoving a decision down the throat of a common man with an illusion of having absolute power. I'm afraid this isn't how democracy would work. This isn't how we will achieve inclusive growth, which leaders of country keep talking. Somewhere we will need to break old mindset.
Fortunately i can see this happening.

 

[Joe Shearer]

back from a long Hiatus madamji.
Good to see you back!!


Kindly excuse for this rather crude (& distasteful to many) example i'm quoting. In 80s, Government realized they have to do something about population explosion and since sex was a taboo word for our sansakari society, it meant we kept on pushing responsibility of sex education from one department to other. Things like use of contraceptives, while everyone including health agencies and department realized, was essential, nobody knew how exactly to tell this.
Then volunteers, NGOs and media and even Cine personalities came around and tried to convey this message in sensitive manner. While all this was met with shock (Wasn't easy for a young man to go to a chemist shop and ask for....), slowly society accepted this. Off course TV and print media had a huge role to play in this change, but we had to break our mental setup and think afresh.
In context of what you have mentioned, KK isn't the last case, where people will challenge, what happens that affects them. So some armchair experts sitting in offices or conference halls, can't really decide on what should be. Sometimes you have to go to a common man in street and put your point across. Take his concern in account.
In a lot of areas we are still carrying our Raj time mentality of shoving a decision down the throat of a common man with an illusion of having absolute power. I'm afraid this isn't how democracy would work. This isn't how we will achieve inclusive growth, which leaders of country keep talking. Somewhere we will need to break old mindset.
Fortunately i can see this happening.

Trenchant. Very good, thanks.

 

[anant_s]

Can anyone give details on the experimental 500MW reactor India was planning?

Can you be a little more specific?
I assume you are asking for Fast Breeder Reactor.