Kowsar Ver II - Possibilities !

[TheTallGuy]

WHY F-5, That too a F-5F

come on Iranians reverse engineer F-4E Phantom II with AL-21F4 engine with Zhemchoug II radar, Alena Apside (copy) and R74 archers all license produced. Bang you have no strings attach locally produced 2 x seat Multirole fighter...Its not a radical idea...British had fiited Spey into F4J phantom you guys can do it as well.

It would still be do able then reverse engineering F14 with AL-31 Engines and bars radar...as you think Titanium WIng section manufacturing is expensive ...which is far from truth..for amercian it was expensive but for Russian it was and is not ...they are champions in titanium... and after 40 years they can do it as far less cost...

Sometimes i think Iranians have given up air force development they have concluded that with enemy like US & Israel ..IRIAF is a turkey shoot and why invest...just keep it to bare minimum develop SAMs & AAA ....and ride out air campaign for 30-40 days ...engage on ground with enemy as close as possible as said "by the pants buckle"

What am i saying?

 

[sanel1412]

If you put in 5th gen avionics, radar, missiles and hardpoints on a modified Mig 15, you have something that at long range can shoot down 4th generation fighters.

The F-5s' airframe main disadvantages are dogfighting.

The aim of Iranian domestic air force R&D should be toward this focus of long range interception of 4th gen fighters.

I would put them on a Mig-29 airframe though. For better maneuverability and more hardpoints.

I would like to know where I am wrong in this thinking. The Chinese J-10C is not an attractive fighter but is 4.5 gen and can fire very long range Air to Air Missiles. That should be the top priority of most fighters, hitting the other jets before they hit you. A modified F-5 with very long range missiles can do this almost as good as any 4th gen fighter.

Going this route develops domestic fighter production. And eventually Iran will be producing 5th gen fighters, by not being reliant on foreign exporters of 4+ gen fighters. Iran will have already surpassed that.

I never heard such nonsense, F-5 is one of best dogfighter ever built, killing everything from F-15,F-14, F-16.. F-18 regulary, it has better performanse than F18 when it comes to dog fight and also higher cruise speed than F-18(speed without using after burner), airframe is most cost effective ever built, So it is good way to start, thus you need advanced trainer even when heavier aircraft became available, even US orders new F-5 every year, including for 2020/21. So it is win win, you have aircraft, cheap and easy to gain knowledge and when new aircraft became available, you will continue to produce it and use as advanced trainer and you can sell it also... F-5 is still best advanced trainer on market, and one of only few supersonic advanced trainers available

 

[Philosopher]

I feel people are greatly underestimating the F-5 platform. For example. the F-20 tiger had great potential. Take the F-5 platform, incorporate low RCS design techniques, give it a powerful single engine, modern avionics and you have a fantastic fighter jet. Yes, in 1 vs 1 it may not top an F-22 in BVR, but the low cost of it and relatively lower complexity could mean they could be produced in large enough numbers to offset many of its disadvantages.

I am not saying Iran would go down this route because Iran needs a relatively larger plane to meets its future needs, but do not get confused thinking this platform does not have potential.

 

[TheImmortal]

“Take a 1950’s light fighter aircraft that can barely travel much. Then give it ‘RCS techniques’ which is code for I don’t know what I am talking about”

And what do you get? An airplane that will get smoked by every modern fighter jet from BVR. Which is how air battles are fought in the 21st century. Apparently some people on this board live in WWI and think dog fights are going to happen.

F-5 is nothing more than a advanced trainer/ LAC. I have been saying this for years and in 10 years these same ignorant people will be praising the F-5 with the same excuses.

 

[WudangMaster]

I posted a video in one of these Kowsar threads a few days back that showcased Brasil's F-5s having received upgrades bringing them on par with F-20 in terms of power and major upgrades with lots of israelli avionics and missiles. Thing that surprised me was that the plane can launch bvr missiles but the radar is still a mechanically steered dish or so I understood that to be the case. Whole reason I posted it was to compare the Kowsar avionic and radar to the Brasilian one, and of course I am always aware that Brazil has had vast access to outside source and no sanctions to upgrade their F-5s and in many ways the challenge for HESA is greater but I was still curious about peoples thought here.

 

[Philosopher]

“Take a 1950’s light fighter aircraft that can barely travel much. Then give it ‘RCS techniques’ which is code for I don’t know what I am talking about”

And what do you get? An airplane that will get smoked by every modern fighter jet from BVR. Which is how air battles are fought in the 21st century. Apparently some people on this board live in WWI and think dog fights are going to happen.

F-5 is nothing more than a advanced trainer/ LAC. I have been saying this for years and in 10 years these same ignorant people will be praising the F-5 with the same excuses.

I suggest you undergo research into planes like F-20 tiger shark to get a little sense of what we mean. I clearly explained already, that with the addition of a powerful engine, and modernisation of the avionics and RCS reduction techniques you can create a capable fighter. As for RCS reduction techniques, if you need the basic information, then here you go: Reducing RCS can be made via structural changes and/or Radar absorptive materials etc.

You're presenting a rather juvenile level understanding of these topics and think just because F-5 itself may lack certain qualities, that the platforms as a whole lacks potential. Try to think critically.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

A nice article on the F-20:

The Survivors: Northrop F-20 Tigershark – A Formidible but Unlucky Jet Fighter!

The Survivors: Northrop F-20 Tigershark – A Formidible but Unlucky Jet Fighter!

By all accounts the 1980’s era Northrop F-20 Tigershark was a great fighter jet that was maneuverable with good short field capability. It was kind of like a super F-5E Tiger II with a new si…

acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com

​

 

[Hamza913]

“Take a 1950’s light fighter aircraft that can barely travel much. Then give it ‘RCS techniques’ which is code for I don’t know what I am talking about”

And what do you get? An airplane that will get smoked by every modern fighter jet from BVR. Which is how air battles are fought in the 21st century. Apparently some people on this board live in WWI and think dog fights are going to happen.

F-5 is nothing more than a advanced trainer/ LAC. I have been saying this for years and in 10 years these same ignorant people will be praising the F-5 with the same excuses.

You seem to have this juvenile delusion that low tech aircraft don't pose a threat in modern warfare: spoiler alert, if there's enough of them flown by good pilots with excellent AWACS and anti-air defence support, they can pose a deterrence to potential enemies through the nasty wounds they are capable of inflicting during wartime.

 

[Philosopher]

I posted a video in one of these Kowsar threads a few days back that showcased Brasil's F-5s having received upgrades bringing them on par with F-20 in terms of power and major upgrades with lots of israelli avionics and missiles. Thing that surprised me was that the plane can launch bvr missiles but the radar is still a mechanically steered dish or so I understood that to be the case. Whole reason I posted it was to compare the Kowsar avionic and radar to the Brasilian one, and of course I am always aware that Brazil has had vast access to outside source and no sanctions to upgrade their F-5s and in many ways the challenge for HESA is greater but I was still curious about peoples thought here.

The platform itself has great potential for upgrade. The Brazilian version is one example and that is still far from where you can take it. This plane can easily have BVR capability with modern avionics which are getting increasingly compact. Reducing the RCS of the plane is easily do-able given the relatively simple design and low complexity of the airframe. This overall "simple" and cheap nature of this platform is very eye catching.

 

[TheImmortal]

I suggest you undergo research into planes like F-20 tiger shark to get a little sense of what we mean. I clearly explained already, that with the addition of a powerful engine, and modernisation of the avionics and RCS reduction techniques you can create a capable fighter. As for RCS reduction techniques, if you need the basic information, then here you go: Reducing RCS can be made via structural changes and/or Radar absorptive materials etc.

You're presenting a rather juvenile level understanding of these topics and think just because F-5 itself may lack certain qualities, that the platforms as a whole lacks potential. Try to think critically.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

A nice article on the F-20:

The Survivors: Northrop F-20 Tigershark – A Formidible but Unlucky Jet Fighter!

The Survivors: Northrop F-20 Tigershark – A Formidible but Unlucky Jet Fighter!

By all accounts the 1980’s era Northrop F-20 Tigershark was a great fighter jet that was maneuverable with good short field capability. It was kind of like a super F-5E Tiger II with a new si…

acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com

​

You seem to have this juvenile delusion that low tech aircraft don't pose a threat in modern warfare: spoiler alert, if there's enough of them flown by good pilots with excellent AWACS and anti-air defence support, they can pose a deterrence to potential enemies through the nasty wounds they are capable of inflicting during wartime.

Seriously you guys need to use your head.

You cannot make “RCS” reducing techniques without changing the design and changing the design means you are messing with the CoG of the original aircraft. At that point it’s no longer the same aircraft and everything starts changing from a physics standpoint. You are now building a new jet.

Same rebutall to your “powerful” engine comment. You again show your ignorance and lack of knowledge. Messing with the engine messes with the aerodynamics and physics of the plane and opens a whole can of unknown variables such as stress and fatigue on the frame.

Last point: the nose cone of F-5 is small and carries a weak radar. The type of radar you need to have a shot to detect LO objects (like F-35 and F-22) would be a radar found in the latest SU-35 block. A radar that the F-5 again cannot fit in the nose cone and would again mess with the design of the aircraft.

So again you could build 10,000 Kowsar but they cannot kill what they cannot reach (speed) and they cannot kill what they cannot detect (radar) and they cannot kill what they cannot fire at (BVR missile).

Like I said anyone can sit back and say “oh F-5 is great platform if you do this this this and this” by then you got a new damn plane that has a different center of gravity. Then these people will counter with “if you build enough of them”. Listen junior, if in the last 20 years Iran has built less than 30 F-5 derivative prototypes then it’s not magically going to build 300 in the next 10 years.

So continue on with your fantasies, I’m sure the brilliant engineers of Iran’s best universities were too stupid to come up with these ideas you guys just came up with.

Someone should call China and Russia and tell them to abandon their 5th gen projects, because apparently the way to beat the US airforce is with a Frankenstein version of a 1950’s light aircraft that was designed for dogfighting.

 

[Philosopher]

You cannot make “RCS” reducing techniques without changing the design and changing the design means you are messing with the CoG of the original aircraft. At that point it’s no longer the same aircraft and everything starts changing from a physics standpoint. You are now building a new jet.

What you seems to be missing is that modification is still an easier task than designing a completely new fighter jet. Morever, not all reduction in stealth have to be based on significant changes in the aircraft's airframe, check the F-15 silent eagle.

Second point: the nose cone of F-5 is small and carries a weak radar. The type of radar you need to have a shot to detect LO objects (like F-35 and F-22) would be a radar found in the latest SU-35 block. A radar that the F-5 again cannot fit in the nose cone and would again mess with the design of the aircraft.

This is a moot point, you do not have to build radars of those ranges to create a capable fighter jet. Having said that, you can still give even something like the F-5 a good enough radar. For example, look at the frontal nose area of the F-5 as compared to the F-35, yes F-35 has a larger area (not by much) and has a great radar capability. Of course you could give F-5 platform a good radar capability. Check the frontal areas:

Morever, modern fighter jets work in an integrated sense, they network and are connected as part of a much larger picture. This is an essential part of modern warfare, you think a fighter jet like F-22 is going around with its radar on? Even an LPI radar is a great giveaway for these fighter jets. Thus in modern aerial war, how you network your systems is the key.

So again you could build 10,000 Kowsar but they cannot kill what they cannot reach (speed)

Go look at the speed of the F-20.

and they cannot kill what they cannot detect (radar) and they cannot kill what they cannot fire at (BVR missile).

Baseless claims.

Like I said anyone can sit back and say “oh F-5 is great platform if you do this this this and this” by then you got a new damn plane that has a different center of gravity. Then these people will counter with “if you build enough of them”. Listen junior, if in the last 20 years Iran has built less than 30 F-5 derivative prototypes then it’s not magically going to build 300 in the next 10 years.

No one said Iran needs be the nation doing this, we're talking about potential of this air-frame generally speaking.

So continue on with your fantasies, I’m sure the brilliant engineers of Iran’s best universities were too stupid to come up with these ideas you guys just came up with.

Your truth is reversed. So far, we have seen Iran work on the F-5, develop it and even talk about creating next generation. So yes, it seems Iranian engineers are working towards further modification.

Someone should call China and Russia and tell them to abandon their 5th gen projects, because apparently the way to beat the US airforce is with a Frankenstein version of a 1950’s light aircraft that was designed for dogfighting.

The main point of this conversation was to demonstrate that with the appropriate upgrade, the F-5 as a platform would become a much more capable fighter. Russia and China do not need to resort to that as they have the experience to build whatever they need from scratch. Morover, the point here is the potential of platforms when considering further development. For example, comparing Su-35 vs Su-27.

 

[Hamza913]

So again you could build 10,000 Kowsar but they cannot kill what they cannot reach (speed)

Good luck having missiles to shoot down every last unit if one builds enough of them, and it's not as if it's that much slower than every aircraft fielded by Iran's neighbours.

And they cannot kill what they cannot detect (radar) and they cannot kill what they cannot fire at (BVR missile).

As if radar modifications or assistance from other integrated platforms isn't a thing.

Listen junior

Don't be a boomertard, these days such lines are laughed at more than respected.

apparently the way to beat the US airforce is with a Frankenstein version of a 1950’s light aircraft that was designed for dogfighting.

You're acting as if that's what I claimed, stop being stupid.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Good luck having missiles to shoot down every last unit if one builds enough of them, and it's not as if it's that much slower than every aircraft fielded by Iran's neighbours.



As if radar modifications or assistance from other integrated platforms isn't a thing.



Don't be a boomertard, these days such lines are laughed at more than respected.



You're acting as if that's what I claimed, stop being stupid.

are you willing to pilot the ones who will be shoot-down

 

[TheImmortal]

What you seems to be missing is that modification is still an easier task than designing a completely new fighter jet. Morever, not all reduction in stealth have to be based on significant changes in the aircraft's airframe, check the F-15 silent eagle.



This is a moot point, you do not have to build radars of those ranges to create a capable fighter jet. Having said that, you can still give even something like the F-5 a good enough radar. For example, look at the frontal nose area of the F-5 as compared to the F-35, yes F-35 has a larger area (not by much) and has a great radar capability. Of course you could give F-5 platform a good radar capability. Check the frontal areas:

View attachment 691729


View attachment 691730


Morever, modern fighter jets work in an integrated sense, they network and are connected as part of a much larger picture. This is an essential part of modern warfare, you think a fighter jet like F-22 is going around with its radar on? Even an LPI radar is a great giveaway for these fighter jets. Thus in modern aerial war, how you network your systems is the key.



Go look at the speed of the F-20.



Baseless claims.



No one said Iran needs be the nation doing this, we're talking about potential of this air-frame generally speaking.



Your truth is reversed. So far, we have seen Iran work on the F-5, develop it and even talk about creating next generation. So yes, it seems Iranian engineers are working towards further modification.



The main point of this conversation was to demonstrate that with the appropriate upgrade, the F-5 as a platform would become a much more capable fighter. Russia and China do not need to resort to that as they have the experience to build whatever they need from scratch. Morover, the point here is the potential of platforms when considering further development. For example, comparing Su-35 vs Su-27.

Listen you are wrong and no amount of discussing it with you will change your incorrect perception.

A F-5 that is in the light attack category will never be able to kill a F-22 that is in the heavy interceptor/fighter category.

You are trying to build a “jack of all trades” fighter jet and that never works.

A F-35, F-22 will be hunted by a heavy jet interceptor fighter like SU-57/J-20/SU-35 same way the fastest Soviet MIGs were hunted by F-14 nearly 40 years ago.

If you want to upgrade an F-5 to be an F-20 be my guest. After 20 years Iran isn’t close, because the airforce refuses to throw funding at such a project.

But don’t sit here and claim that F-5 can become some 5th gen F-20 and hunt and kill F-22. That’s just laughable.

The best thing Kowsar will ever become is a modernization program for F-5 to keep them flying longer similar to F-14AM program. That’s it.

 

[Philosopher]

Listen you are wrong and no amount of discussing it with you will change your incorrect perception.

There is a difference between simply stating something is incorrect and backing that statement. Your personal feelings do not amount to objective reasonings.

A F-5 that is in the light attack category will never be able to kill a F-22 that is in the heavy interceptor/fighter category.

"Never be able to" is a baseless claim based on zero factual data.

You are trying to build a “jack of all trades” fighter jet and that never works.

Where in my statement did I state this is the purpose of this fighter jet?

A F-35, F-22 will be hunted by a heavy jet interceptor fighter like SU-57/J-20/SU-35 same way the fastest Soviet MIGs were hunted by F-14 nearly 40 years ago.

There are many ways to skin a cat, you are stuck in a limited way of thinking and cannot break through that.

If you want to upgrade an F-5 to be an F-20 be my guest. After 20 years Iran isn’t close, because the airforce refuses to throw funding at such a project.

You keep talking about Iran as if my comment was solely referring to Iran.

But don’t sit here and claim that F-5 can become some 5th gen F-20 and hunt and kill F-22. That’s just laughable.

I have already explained how the F-5 platform can become a capable fighter platform, and I have also stated that I do not expect it to be able to take on a F-22 one 1 vs 1 basis. These straw-man argument are caused by not properly reading the comments you're replying to.

The best thing Kowsar will ever become is a modernization program for F-5 to keep them flying longer similar to F-14AM program. That’s it.

That's not something you're in a position to state, only time will show us that. So I suggest avoid speaking as if you have more than OSIN data to go with. And the point is not whether Iran will do it or not, but whether it can be done.

 

[Hack-Hook]

A F-5 that is in the light attack category will never be able to kill a F-22 that is in the heavy interceptor/fighter category.

better say is not expected to be able to kill an F22. when you are up there there is many different variation ,what if a ground Radar detect the F-22 and relay the position to an F-5 that is flying low an slow in mountains and that F-5 use those data for attack

You are trying to build a “jack of all trades” fighter jet and that never works.

Hundred and Fifty percent agree with you, never saw a good all purpose airplane

If you want to upgrade an F-5 to be an F-20 be my guest. After 20 years Iran isn’t close, because the airforce refuses to throw funding at such a project.

it's not up to air-force to decide on that after all it has to be defense ministry project . if they decide then the air-force have no say in it. but honestly if hey manage to built an F-20 equivalent I don't see why air-force don't be interested , they can retire all F-5, J-7, F-1, Fleet ,Maybe even Mig-29s.

an-F-20 equivalent can easily be something comparable to jf-17 and play the same role for Iran Airforce that JF-17 play for Pakistan airforce
a two seat version can easily replace our FT-7, F-5b and probably other trainers.

But don’t sit here and claim that F-5 can become some 5th gen F-20 and hunt and kill F-22. That’s just laughable.

well, F-5 design is not outdated and obsolete like some people here claim , it only have it's use , using it against f-22 is like using a machine gun against let say Merkava