Korea Returning Chinese Character

[Lux de Veritas]

To be frank, the difficulties of learning Chinese characters for mother tongue speaker is not memorizing the sound, but memorizing the shape. As you hear the sound of a certain word frequently, you link it up with the shape, and you do not even think about how to pronounce it.

As a Southern Chinese, many of us are quite resentful that the spectrum of Chinese character use in literal Chinese are mainly from Mandarin. The Shanghai-ese, Min Nan and Cantonese has their own writing system. We use a vastly different lexicon compared to the mandarin.

There are a few HK Macau guy here. Even though they may sound jingo-istic, many of them resented invasion of Mandarin.

But that does not mean they want to Romanize Cantonese. They still like the writing system.

The Cantonese, Min Nan (Taiwanese) and Shanghai-ese could have go independent and 1000 years later, their lect situation will be the same as Vietnamese.

more than 10,000 Cantonese go on street to protest against Mandarin invasion.

方言保è*· - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

 

[Viet]

To be frank, the difficulties of learning Chinese characters for mother tongue speaker is not memorizing the sound, but memorizing the shape. As you hear the sound of a certain word frequently, you link it up with the shape, and you do not even think about how to pronounce it.

how can I memorize the shape and remember the corresponding character? the difficulty is Chinese characters do not show any hints how to pronounce them.

 

[ViXuyen]

[COLOR="#006400[COLOR="#006400"]All east Asian other than Viet are able to read the cardboard. Viet choose to remain illiterate. Sorry, I am wrong, Viet is South East Asian.

Who gives a shiet about "illiterate" in your Chinese script? The Korean? Definitely not us Vietnamese. Vietnamese's literacy rate is world's top notch including the millions of ethnic minorities.

Vietnamese historical data have all been translated from Chinese script to Quoc Ngu. Ever heard of Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu? That historical annal was originally not written in Quoc Ngu bud.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Actually, the Chinese character system place very little emphasis on sound. You pronounce anything you like in your lect. I suppose you know this word

越南

Vietnamese - Việt Nam
Min Nan (Taiwanese) - Wat Nam
Cantonese - Yut Nam
Mandarin - Yue Nan

If you happen to identify
越 = Việt (Guangdong)
南 = South

you pronounce it the same way when you see these 2 words shows up next time.

So, the system is, you need to link whatever you speak and its meaning to a symbol.

Next time you see 南, you know its south, and you pronounce it out in your native lect. From from Viet Nam (越&#21335, I immediately know it means south of Guangdong.


One more example is Hà Nội 河內

河 = river
內 = inside

Vietnamese - Hà Nội
Taiwanese - Ho Lai
Cantonese - Ho Noi
Mandarin - He Ne

You link the Hà with the symbol 河, and Nội with symbol 內 for Vietnamese. So when I see Ha Noi, I knew it means "within river".

Next time when Ha Noi or Viet Nam shows up in combination of different characters, I got their meaning straight away. I do not have to check dictionary.

This is the general way how the system works. It is very efficient and clean in my opinion. I am not saying Latin is bad, but Chinese character is very efficient for Sinitic lects.

Who gives a shiet about "illiterate" in your Chinese script? The Korean? Definitely not us Vietnamese. Vietnamese's literacy rate is world's top notch including the millions of ethnic minorities.

Vietnamese historical data have all been translated from Chinese script to Quoc Ngu. Ever heard of Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu? That historical annal was originally not written in Quoc Ngu bud.

I heard you guys even have a hell lot of difficulties in Truyen Kieu.

Many Vietnamese told me "No problem in reading Truyen Kieu". 翹傳(Tuyen Kieu)，斷腸新聲」(Doan Truong Tam Thanh)

I ask them "Are you sure?"

Then they admit, they need a lot of annotations.

Vietnamese today have a lot of difficulties accessing Truyen Kieu, I do not know whether to cheer your literacy rate or to cry.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

To be frank, the difficulties of learning Chinese characters for mother tongue speaker is not memorizing the sound, but memorizing the shape. As you hear the sound of a certain word frequently, you link it up with the shape, and you do not even think about how to pronounce it.

As a Southern Chinese, many of us are quite resentful that the spectrum of Chinese character use in literal Chinese are mainly from Mandarin. The Shanghai-ese, Min Nan and Cantonese has their own writing system. We use a vastly different lexicon compared to the mandarin.

There are a few HK Macau guy here. Even though they may sound jingo-istic, many of them resented invasion of Mandarin.

But that does not mean they want to Romanize Cantonese. They still like the writing system.

The Cantonese, Min Nan (Taiwanese) and Shanghai-ese could have go independent and 1000 years later, their lect situation will be the same as Vietnamese.

more than 10,000 Cantonese go on street to protest against Mandarin invasion.

方言保è*· - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

Learning Mandarin is a must, since it is the dominant dialect of the modern Chinese language for 700 years, it is impossible to find another dialect to replace it.

Guangdong can't become independent, otherwise it will turn into another sh1thole just like Vietnam, since it is very densely populated with very little natural resources.

 

[yusheng]

how can I memorize the shape and remember the corresponding character? the difficulty is Chinese characters do not show any hints how to pronounce them.

the superiority of Chinese is that Chinese characters is a two-dimensional representation of two-dimensional planar media which is higher in expression efficiency.

Chinese characters strokes correspond alphabets, single Chinese characters correspond to the English word, Chinese words correspond phrases.

Chinese characters repeated utilization rate is very high, only three thousand five hundred words are commonly used. China National Chinese characters literacy standard is 1500 words, general science and engineering students to master 2000 Chinese characters. With these 2000 words, we can read books, newspapers, engage in scientific research. nearly all Chinese words can be combined by less than 5 common characters.

While the English, or for romanistic, the linear combination of letters, try to give every thing a name, one word for one thing. The universe is infinite, infinite English Vocabulary -- but the energy is limited! so how can you remember more than 400,000
english words, it is said that the volume will exceed 1,000,000. English is divergent.


In the English world, the amount of words for a general high school graduates in the United States is three thousand to three thousand five hundred or so, which is sufficient for everyday life demand, but need 20000 words or more to read wspapers, and 30000 to read weekly, university graduates with 10 years experience generally understand 80000 words. The emergence of new things, always accompanied by new english words, such as rocket, computer. Hoever, in Chinese the expression of such conception is very relaxed, rocekt is an " arrow" driven by “fire”, computer is a "calculating machine"! English can not be done in that way , the reason is "too long". If the rocket will be "FIRE-DRIVEN-ARROW", the computer will become "COMPUTAIONAL-MACHINE". From the perspective angle view of human eye, the word is too long will reduce the readability of the article and the reader's understanding ability. that is why no chinese have dyslexia.

now answer you question, since Chinese characerts is like a picture which conveys its mean first, sometimes its prononce, then Chinese people today can read books written 2000 years ago though we may not pronounce it as its original.

In comparison with English, Nowadays people are very hard to read the origianl of William Shakespeare, not to mention to read the British poet of 400 years ago Chaucer's poem . Because the English is widely used, its phonetic, or semantic vocabulary and geographical habits, changed rapidly and vastly and then causes misunderstanding. The British and the United States also distinguish the British and American English, plus other so-called English country, their writting, pronouncing spelling are so different no less than Chinese dialects differences, difficulty of communication is far more than the use of the ideographic Chinese.

by the way, if no one tell you how to prononce "A" as "ei", how can you link its shape to its pronounce?

 

[Lux de Veritas]

the superiority of Chinese is that Chinese characters is a two-dimensional representation of two-dimensional planar media which is higher in expression efficiency.

Chinese characters strokes correspond alphabets, single Chinese characters correspond to the English word, Chinese words correspond phrases.

Chinese characters repeated utilization rate is very high, only three thousand five hundred words are commonly used. China National Chinese characters literacy standard is 1500 words, general science and engineering students to master 2000 Chinese characters. With these 2000 words, we can read books, newspapers, engage in scientific research. nearly all Chinese words can be combined by less than 5 common characters.

While the English, or for romanistic, the linear combination of letters, try to give every thing a name, one word for one thing. The universe is infinite, infinite English Vocabulary -- but the energy is limited! so how can you remember more than 400,000
english words, it is said that the volume will exceed 1,000,000. English is divergent.


In the English world, the amount of words for a general high school graduates in the United States is three thousand to three thousand five hundred or so, which is sufficient for everyday life demand, but need 20000 words or more to read wspapers, and 30000 to read weekly, university graduates with 10 years experience generally understand 80000 words. The emergence of new things, always accompanied by new english words, such as rocket, computer. Hoever, in Chinese the expression of such conception is very relaxed, rocekt is an " arrow" driven by “fire”, computer is a "calculating machine"! English can not be done in that way , the reason is "too long". If the rocket will be "FIRE-DRIVEN-ARROW", the computer will become "COMPUTAIONAL-MACHINE". From the perspective angle view of human eye, the word is too long will reduce the readability of the article and the reader's understanding ability. that is why no chinese have dyslexia.

now answer you question, since Chinese characerts is like a picture which conveys its mean first, sometimes its prononce, then Chinese people today can read books written 2000 years ago though we may not pronounce it as its original.

In comparison with English, Nowadays people are very hard to read the origianl of William Shakespeare, not to mention to read the British poet of 400 years ago Chaucer's poem . Because the English is widely used, its phonetic, or semantic vocabulary and geographical habits, changed rapidly and vastly and then causes misunderstanding. The British and the United States also distinguish the British and American English, plus other so-called English country, their writting, pronouncing spelling are so different no less than Chinese dialects differences, difficulty of communication is far more than the use of the ideographic Chinese.

by the way, if no one tell you how to prononce "A" as "ei", how can you link its shape to its pronounce?

This is a little exaggerated but nevertheless, it contains a lot of truth.

By the way, to recover the phonetic information of old Chinese, everyone uses my lect (闽&#21335, Min Nan aka Taiwanese. In addition, my lect Min Nan preserves a lot of ancient expressions that is no longer used in Mandarin.

I assure you my Min Nan is 100% non intelligible with Mandarin. If Taiwan goes independence, within 100 years, its lect situation may be more or less like Vietnamese lect vs Mandarin.

Its easy for me to learn Mandarin and even Cantonese, but Mandarin speaker will get hell learning Min Nan.

Sometimes, I feel Mandarin speaker have very little talent in picking up languages.

BTW, Chinese songs in cantonese is the most expressive and elegant. It can pronounce and express many feelings that cannot be done in Mandarin.

 

[gpit]

Link, pls.

I don't think so, we can not turn back to use Han Ji for writing in Vietnam.

...

I feel very sorry for you that generations of your people and cultures are murdered recklessly by a few in your top: jingoistic and brainless.

You lost your culture, you lost your history, you lost your education... and worse: you lost yourselves and you lost your future.

 

[gpit]

Lux de Veritas,

I think the main reasons that Vietnamese droped out Han script due to the long conflict in between 2 country, and for the national security the more Latin scrift use then it will be the less Chinese people understanding.

Ho Chi Minh and his family is different, his dad was a Han [Nho] teacher so everything from Ho Chi Minh is Chinese number 1, that also a main reason his Han Script better than Latin - Vietnamese script in writting. More than that, he copy exact the same what Mao, Deng uniform for himseft.

I love to see Vietnamese have Chu Nom back as offically Vietnamese script as bilangual script.

Just as I said, excessive jingoism murdered your culture.

You can also hate China with Chinese language. Perhaps it is easier for you to use Chinese language to express your hatred more vividly than use that foreign ones.

Ukrainians (seemingly) hate Russians, but they still use Russian language. Because that is also a part of their culture.

You are all victims of your reckless and foolish leaders.

Feel bad for you…

 

[Viet]

@Lux de Veritas @yusheng

Do you have any efficient methode to memorize the different characters as there is "easy" character like 8, but "difficult" one like women. I mean the strokes. Some characters have more than 30 strokes!

8 eight

wife or women

 

[Soryu]

I have quite a few Korean friends. I can even communicate with my Korean friends by writing to each other on piece of paper Sometimes pronunciations are very similar to my dialect. Korean names are pretty much based on Chinese characters so they have to know some Chinese characters in order to know their own names, which I believe stille hold true with respect to Vietnamese names, but I think most Vietnamese don't even know what their names mean.

So you wrong, almost Vietnamese know very well their names mean (exclude some weird or hard to understand ...). We are civilization.

You have a despise for own culture. You do not understand your own culture as well as Korean. Chinese characters is like Latin alphabet and it is a international way of writing system. Chinese characters is Vietnamese own tradition as well and Ho Chi Minh adores it. Latin is imported by your colonial master.

Below is Ho Chi Minh's caligraphy.

USA tried to Latinized Japanese but Japan resisted it ferociously. Then USA tried to reduce Kanji. Their plans were taken down by Japanese eventually.

Above is content page and part of Korean constitutiion in Korean languages. Korean cannot do without Chinese characters. Their elites are good at it. This is a open secret.

Now the elite want to spread the good thing to peasant, that they have guarded closely to themselves.

FYI all Vietnam super cultural elites support Chu Nom. They are now waiting for the right time to bring it back.

We study our culture and traditional very well, Lux.

The French bring up Latin alphabet and help to latinized Vietnamese language. This thing was benefit for both French and Vietnamese. Ho Chi Minh also support latin alphabet as well.

Where your source about this "super cultural elites support Chu Nom" !?

Vietnam has latinized its language and from sources I gathered, it is more difficult for Viet to return to Chu Nom than Japanese or Koreans. The latinize Viet codification was thought to be ugly, and causes much ambiguity. Right now, Chu Nom is not as dead as many Vietnamese peasants are thinking. The Chinese Vietnamese who have studied Chinese as a language in special program picks up Chu Nom easily.

I foresee the reinstitution of Chu Nom will follow the below path.

1) Chinese Vietnamese and Vietnamese students studying in China will be the cultural elites and first to pick up Chu Nom.

2) Due to emergence of China, Vietnam will offer Mandarin as 2nd language and many Vietnamese will go tri-lingual (Viet, Mandarin and English). These students will auto learn Chu Nom

3) China will flood Vietnam will China MNC. Those Chu Nom elites will be rewarded. It will spur more Vietnamese to learn Chinese.

4) Korean and Japanese MNC in Vietnam will require those with proficiency in Chinese characters. As Vietnamese work in Korean and Japanese MNC, they will pick up Korean and Japanese and eventually Chu Nom.

5) There will be a long period of time where Chu Nom and quốc ngữ will be used in parallel. Whether Chu Nom can totally replace Quoc Ngu or not, I not not able to predict. But Chu Nom will make a come back. That is for sure.

Today Samsung is the biggest MNC in Vietnam (sorry is my info correct)? When Korea go for Hanja, Samsung Viet managers will learn Korean and Hanja. Eventually, Viet will return to Chu Nom.

"The latinize Viet codification was thought to be ugly, and causes much ambiguity" <<< where was this thought come from !?

"Chu Nom is not as dead as many Vietnamese peasants are thinking" ???
"Ch&#7919; Nôm" and "Vietnamese peasants", I just don't get it !?

Your path about "Vietnamese return to Chu Nom" just a long fantasy. And "ch&#7919; qu&#7889;c ng&#7919;" mean "national language", so if "Ch&#7919; Nôm" replace Vietnamese-latin alphabet, it'll become "Qu&#7889;c Ng&#7919;"

In a way, I am more culturally Vietnamese than Vietnamese. Who understand the following inscriptions

Even when you can read and understand those inscriptions, you will never reach that level "culturally Vietnamese than Vietnamese", if you don't live and speak as Vietnamese.

He knows very well the main reason why they have to use roman alphabet, but he is just relectent to admit it. However roman alphabet did help veitnamese common people in a very helpful way, it wildspread the literacy among the less educated people in vietnam. The drawback as a feminist historian Pamela A. Pears asserted that the French, by instituting the Roman alphabet in Vietnam, cut the Vietnamese off from their traditional literature, rendering them unable to read it.

Ok, I understand it, Chinese guys just have many fantasy about Vietnamese and real world ...

 

[Soryu]

bla bla bla ....

bla bla bla ....

"Feel sorry" and "feel bad" for us!? Because you consider we were hating China and so, we destroyed our culture and history!?
You said like a crap, gpit, indeed. You should return your planet and get your fantasy.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

@Lux de Veritas @yusheng

Do you have any efficient methode to memorize the different characters as there is "easy" character like 8, but "difficult" one like women. I mean the strokes. Some characters have more than 30 strokes!

8 eight

wife or women

The difficulties in memorizing &#22971; is solved by immersion. In the East Asia environment, you get to see &#22971;, once things related to wife shows up. I do not really memorize that much. You just see it in advertisement, news, newspaper, TV, KTV...etc

If I am in Viet Nam, Ha Noi 100 years ago, I will see &#36234;&#21335; (Vietnam) &#27827;&#20869; &#65288;Hanoi&#65289;everywhere. So I have already picked up 4 characters without even putting in any effort. In Chinese society, you need 3000 characters to read newspaper. You can simply pick up at least 1000 characters by looking around.

Once you know
&#36234; = Guangzhou
&#21335; = south
&#27827; = river
&#20869; = within

It will provide a lot of info on the meaning of the lexicon with these words happen to combine with other words.

You cannot do that in English society. The name of cities is useless to learn the next lexicon.

And I give you an example in Vietnamese

&#23416; ~ h&#7885;c (study),
&#24515;&#29702;&#23416; ~ tâmlýh&#7885;c (psychology),
&#23416;&#32773; ~ h&#7885;cgi&#7843; (scholar),
&#22823;&#23416; ~ &#273;&#7841;ih&#7885;c (university),

Once we see &#23416; h&#7885;c&#65292; we know it is study. And this "&#23416;" appears everywhere when there is school buildings. The first time your parents pointed school to you and say hoc, after sometimes you know &#23416; is h&#7885;c without actually memorizing. However, learning to write needs much more effort than simply recognizing the words.

So to pick it up is not difficult. Its very obvious and fast to Chinese.

When &#23416; appears, I will know it got to relate to schools are study.

We have Romanize script as well but I found it clumsy due to large amount of homophones.

In reading Vietnamese, both &#26126; (bright) and &#20901; (dark) are read as minh. But Chinese are not perturb by homophones as &#26126; &#20901; disambiguified immediately. So the information rate is much faster and efficient.

 

[Soryu]

Why did Vietnamese stop using beutiful Han-zi ... Damn the french, they destroy Every culture they interact with. From the great scripts of the Timbakto (Mali) to the Berber/Amerzigh people's language to Vietnam.

We stop use it like national language, we're not delete it.

So the Vietnamese willingly decided to take up a white European script (Latin alphabets) instead of a native Asian one? Sounds about right.


Seriously man, please do not associate Cantonese with Vietnam. Just because they stole Chinese ideas as the basis for their culture doesn't mean we have anything to do with them.

You need your drug, man. If you want get rid our existence, so go to hell.

Then why don't you give up all traditional Vietnamese culture (which was stolen from Chinese culture) and come up with your own replacements as well?

Since you have decided to take up Western alphabets instead of Asian characters, why not take their culture all the way, and get rid of all your traditional language, culture, philosophies, food and clothing. Which is simply a shadow imitation of the Chinese ones anyway.

Throw away your history and get a new Western one.

Ok, ok, no need to crying like that. We just stop used China characters, nothing to do with your culture. If you can't stand it, so go to complain it with your leaders ...

Are you butth-urt that we threw away your Chinese script into the toilet dump?

Unfortunately for you guys, we keep whatever we like and there is nothing you can do about it except whining about us not using your Chinese script.

Yeah, Chinese do it like alway, bro ...

No I am annoyed that you could possibly associated with us in any way.

Look at HK city alone, with only 7 million people our GDP is $263 billion.

Vietnam with almost 100 million people, your GDP is only $138 billion.

I wish you would just complete the transition completely away from traditional Vietnamese culture (which is an imitation of Chinese culture) so that we no longer have anything to do with each other.

From Characters, alphabet goes to GDP, you so good at this
If you want it so much, so you can do it by yourself (get rid from your traditional culture)

No one cares if the non-Chinese folks want to adopt the Chinese writing system or not, but we just want you guys especially Viets and Koreans to stay away from our history, stop claiming our lands are your former lost territories, stay where you are, don't come to China.

What's nine-dash-line!? Can you explain it meaning!?

Yep, they should just stop sending their boat people, and completely get rid of their (stolen from China) traditional culture. So we have nothing to do with each other anymore.

So China should get rid from this World and return old time when they were gang-up by 8 countries, you're just stolen so many things from modern world after that time.
And Boat people = ng&#432;&#7901;i Tàu = Chinese ...

China is always the center of the East Asian civilization, while those jealous Viet/Korean trolls are dreaming of takeover.

But a dream will remain as a dream. Now it is not the 17th century anymore, where you can expect a weakened China got conquered by a small group of nomad.

I see, you are alway think about it, alway dreaming about it, and alway consider it is true ... oh, keep dreaming, we so jealous with you ...

So why are there so many illegal Vietnamese immigrants in my city?

They came from Vietnam, so they are Vietnamese. I don't care if they have 50% Chinese ancestry or whatever, they are not Chinese citizens.

The Chinese state only has a responsibility to Chinese citizens.

I can understand why Vietnamese want to come here, because our income levels in HK are 30 times higher than anywhere in Vietnam. Same as why Vietnamese want to go anywhere else except Vietnam.

Oh, boat people, boat people ... why did we have so many Chinese on over the world !???

 

[Star&#8730;ation]

In a way, I am more culturally Vietnamese than Vietnamese. Who understand the following inscriptions

Haha, it is.
To a certain extent, you're may even more literate than many Vietnamese in our own country.
It's a matter of fact that Vietnamese youths nowadays have a more and more loose connection with their ancestors culturally, linguistically and historically. Adopting the Latin alphabet system is just one of the reasons among many that cause the issue.

P/S: It's very likely that you're a Chinese Singaporean, isn't it? If so, I bet you 1 penny that your mother tongue is Hokkienese.