KENYA NAVY AND POSSIBLE F-22P AND/OR AGOSTA ACQUISITION

[kenyannoobie]

HI! I'm a noobie but not exactly new having been a long time lurker in this place for some years. I know enough to know that forumers here know WTH they talk about. Anyway I've a question about future KN acquisitions which seem to indicate a preference for Zulfiquar F22s. For now the newly delivered KNS Jasiri a 290 foot corvette is our only true OPV. However informed sources say though politics delayed its delivery by 7 years and consequently threw the whole KN acquisition program out of whack the brass is still determined to build up a blue water fleet and are seriously considering the type F22.

Kenya ,also is fast expanding its regional footprint and needs more capable craft than the 6 or so 56 meter gunboats in its navy. The intent was to serve as a oceanographic survey vessel as originally described to pave the way for 1 or 2 inshore subs,likely Pakistani or Indian. Ideally,if the KNS Jasiri had arrived in 2005 as expected another similar vessel would have been arriving and within 5 years E.Africa would see its first underwater warship. The delay has thrown the purchase plan behind schedule though the plan for sub acquisition hasn't been and will not be shelved.

I can't post links but will print. karanjazplace.blogspot.com 2012 08 01 archive
I've gone over the relevant naval threads but none answers all my question,which are:
-how does it compare with others in its class,eg the Turkish ,Milgem
-how much of your licence built French submarine is local and how much does it cost?
-In the opinion of ex and serving navy guys what would you recommend for the KN?
The attached map shows the expanded area of Kenya's undeclared national interest in light of changing geopolitical realities from the Somali horn to N.Moz,over 3000 kms,which by the way,is increasingly oil and gas rich.
Your knowledge is eagerly awaited!

 

[Luftwaffe]

HI! I'm a noobie but not exactly new having been a long time lurker in this place for some years. I know enough to know that forumers here know WTH they talk about. Anyway I've a question about future KN acquisitions which seem to indicate a preference for Zulfiquar F22s. For now the newly delivered KNS Jasiri a 290 foot corvette is our only true OPV. However informed sources say though politics delayed its delivery by 7 years and consequently threw the whole KN acquisition program out of whack the brass is still determined to build up a blue water fleet and are seriously considering the type F22.

I can't post links but will print. karanjazplace.blogspot.com 2012 08 01 archive
I've gone over the relevant naval threads but none answers all my question,which are:
-how does it compare with others in its class,eg the Turkish ,Milgem
-how much of your licence built French submarine is local and how much does it cost?
-In the opinion of ex and serving navy guys what would you recommend for the KN?
The attached map shows the expanded area of Kenya's undeclared national interest in light of changing geopolitical realities from the Somali horn to N.Moz,over 3000 kms,which by the way,is increasingly oil and gas rich.
Your knowledge is eagerly awaited!

The person who'll give you precise answer regarding frigates-corvettes is Member Penguin.

Please check the Thread it has most of information regarding Agosta 90B Submarines.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/169746-ssk-agosta-90b-class-attack-submarine-information-pool.html

Agosta 90B atleast 3 of them are in French dockyard with later 4th one sold to Malaysia in 2009 which is used as Training submarine; are in excellent condition ready to be refurbished upgraded, Pakistan did not acquire any of them but showed interested to build 4th but little progress was made in negotiations with France and idea dropped completely, but it could possibly be a good choice or startup for Kenya but cost would be the concern. Price tag at the time Pakistan purchased was $775M-800M not including the recent upgrades. Would Kenya be able to procure 2 for approx $400M-$450M?

 

[kenyannoobie]

The person who'll give you precise answer regarding frigates-corvettes is Member Penguin.

Please check the Thread it has most of information regarding Agosta 90B Submarines.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/169746-ssk-agosta-90b-class-attack-submarine-information-pool.html

Agosta 90B atleast 3 of them are in French dockyard with later 4th one sold to Malaysia in 2009 which is used as Training submarine; are in excellent condition ready to be refurbished upgraded, Pakistan did not acquire any of them but showed interested to build 4th but little progress was made in negotiations with France and idea dropped completely, but it could possibly be a good choice or startup for Kenya but cost would be the concern. Price tag at the time Pakistan purchased was $775M-800M not including the recent upgrades. Would Kenya be able to procure 2 for approx $400M-$450M?

Thanks,luftwaffe,I did read it along with several related threads. Yes,Kenya's budget is increasing with the growing economy,and given the economic importance of our expanded de facto coastline that figure for both is definitely doable. Also there are excellent bilateral relations and I'm sure a mutually beneficial payment scheme could be worked out.
Kenya $62,480,000,000 83 2.8% 51 $1,749,440,000
Country GDP Rank %GDP MIL RANK TOTAL MIL SPENDING
Of course,Penguin could come in and settle these questions if as you say he's the resident naval expert. I must however point out,there's also talk of possible Chinese and Indian subs.

 

[Penguin]

The Kenya Navy comprises:
1x Jasiri class offshore patrol vessel (1.400 tonnes, 85x13 metres wide, maximum speed 28 knots (50 km/h), crew 60-81)
2x Shupavu Class large patrol boats offshore patrol vessels (Armed with a 76mm and a 25mm or 30mm gun. However, these 480 full load tonne vessels have had range, serviceability and sea handling issues that limit deep water operations).
up to 6 inshore patrol vessels (incl. 2x Nyayo class vessels built in Britain by Vosper Thornycroft, 56.7 metres long, displacement approximately 450 tonnes, maximum speed 40 knots, crew of approximately 45)
12 support vessel (incl. patrol boats, landing ship, tugs)

It has been reported that the Kenyan Navy has recently acquired the former French Navy P400 class patrol vessel La Rieuse

Jane’s Sentinel Security Assessment notes that the Kenyan Navy is the best equipped force on the East African coast and benefits from regular training exercises and assistance from the United Kingdom, United States, French and South African navies. Its primary objective is protecting Kenya’s 500 km long coastline, particularly against the rising threat of piracy from its northern neighbour Somalia.

So, I don't understand the preference for Zulfiquar F22s. Or for submarines. As there are no serious NAVAL opponents requiring these types of ships. It would seem to need true off shore patrol capability. This is could acquire from the US in aid in the form of 1 or 2 ex USCG Hamilton class WHEC. See the case of Nigeria. And/Or in the form of additional Jasiri´s or e.g. the similarly sized but hangar equipped Chinese built OPVs, such as those sold to Thailand (Pattani class) . Should more serious combat capability be required, then the Type 056 would seem a cost/effectiveoption, possibly a better ´fit´ than F22P in this case. But, given USN, RN and SAFN support for KN, I doubt acquisition from China is likely. KN should aim for low acquisition, operation and maintenance cost, and ease of maintaining and crewing. Not sure Milgem would be suitable. See existing F22P threads for comparisons among corvettes and frigates.

Should any subs be needed, KN should look at the retired Danish boats of the Type 207
Kobben class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.gondan.com/media/djcatalog/430 JASIRI Brochure BAJA.pdf ;
Jasiri Euromarine the ship builder completed the naval vessel with both naval warfare and oceanographic survey features. The ship cost about 50million euro, as compared to $175m that PN paid per F22P (incl heli).

There are plenty yards offering OPVs for reasonable prices, ranging from 1400 to 3800 tons.

 

[Tshering22]

An expansion in the Kenyan military arsenal especially Navy would be a welcome for the simple reason that there is a lot of trade that is bound from Asia to Africa via Kenya. As it is relatively closer to the pirate HQ Somalia, Kenya's participation in anti-piracy missions is vital for all the trade that goes through the region and enters the continent for either transfer or break down.

Glad to see that Kenya is considering expanding its naval power.

 

[Ibr0kEmYrAz0r]

allAfrica.com: Kenya: Four Billion Jasiri Vessel Arrives in Mombasa

KNS Jasiri patrol ship costs 4 billion Kenyan Shillings, 1 US dollar = 84.26 Ksh (15.09.2012 value)
so KNS Jasiri costs around 47.5 million US dollar, for a patrol ship.

1) And what is Kenya's current budget on purchasing naval equipment?

2) What is your requirement and what class of ship would Kenya desire? frigate/corvette? OPV? civilian coast guard ships? or perhaps some multi-purpose training ship like the one China sold to Algeria in 2006 which made historic visit to United States back in July 2012, for an Algerian Navy ship (i.e the 5,500 tonnes ANS Soummam 937)?

If budget is an issue, then perhaps Kenya can get 2nd-hand US coast guard cutters like Penguin said; or if Kenya wants to develop her own ship-building industry, then perhaps you can get whoever sells the ships to throw in ToT as part of the contract. Many countries can build OPV at affordable price these days.

Such as China built 2 HTMS Pattani class OPVs (1440 tonnes, 95.5 x 11.6m) for Thailand back in 2004-2006. And Thailand used these ships to join anti-piracy mission in the Gulf of Aden as a member of Combined Task Force 151.

 

[kenyannoobie]

The Kenya Navy comprises:
1x Jasiri class offshore patrol vessel (1.400 tonnes, 85x13 metres wide, maximum speed 28 knots (50 km/h), crew 60-81)
2x Shupavu Class large patrol boats offshore patrol vessels (Armed with a 76mm and a 25mm or 30mm gun. However, these 480 full load tonne vessels have had range, serviceability and sea handling issues that limit deep water operations).
up to 6 inshore patrol vessels (incl. 2x Nyayo class vessels built in Britain by Vosper Thornycroft, 56.7 metres long, displacement approximately 450 tonnes, maximum speed 40 knots, crew of approximately 45)
12 support vessel (incl. patrol boats, landing ship, tugs)

It has been reported that the Kenyan Navy has recently acquired the former French Navy P400 class patrol vessel La Rieuse

Jane’s Sentinel Security Assessment notes that the Kenyan Navy is the best equipped force on the East African coast and benefits from regular training exercises and assistance from the United Kingdom, United States, French and South African navies. Its primary objective is protecting Kenya’s 500 km long coastline, particularly against the rising threat of piracy from its northern neighbour Somalia.

So, I don't understand the preference for Zulfiquar F22s. Or for submarines. As there are no serious NAVAL opponents requiring these types of ships. It would seem to need true off shore patrol capability. This is could acquire from the US in aid in the form of 1 or 2 ex USCG Hamilton class WHEC. See the case of Nigeria. And/Or in the form of additional Jasiri´s or e.g. the similarly sized but hangar equipped Chinese built OPVs, such as those sold to Thailand (Pattani class) . Should more serious combat capability be required, then the Type 056 would seem a cost/effectiveoption, possibly a better ´fit´ than F22P in this case. But, given USN, RN and SAFN support for KN, I doubt acquisition from China is likely. KN should aim for low acquisition, operation and maintenance cost, and ease of maintaining and crewing. Not sure Milgem would be suitable. See existing F22P threads for comparisons among corvettes and frigates.

Should any subs be needed, KN should look at the retired Danish boats of the Type 207
Kobben class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.gondan.com/media/djcatalog/430 JASIRI Brochure BAJA.pdf ;
Jasiri Euromarine the ship builder completed the naval vessel with both naval warfare and oceanographic survey features. The ship cost about 50million euro, as compared to $175m that PN paid per F22P (incl heli).

There are plenty yards offering OPVs for reasonable prices, ranging from 1400 to 3800 tons.

I think I should reiterate. Kenya is now operating under a subtle semi Manifest destiny type policy. All KDF arms have undergone unprecedented upgrades in equipment. The KAF now has mi-17s,chinooks and the first of 35 f-15ees have been delivered while the army has new z-9s,mi28s and ka 50s;the navy has been left out,though a guesstimate informs me they get the smallest share of the budget at most 25%-don't quote me. The entire regional land and sea space from the E.Drc,the CAR,S.Sudan till Puntland is considered vital to national interests and so 'our' coastline expands accordingly-like I said from the Somali horn to Northern Mozambique coast. To meet this requirement,ships with sea denial,force projection,anti piracy,disaster relief operations are needed,multi purpose frigates or large corvettes like the Pattani. Potential enemies aren't Puntlanders,Mozambicans or Tanzanians but those in the West who would arm and instigate resource wars,which is normally the case in this part of the world.I still can't post links but on a map thats at least 3000 km length and 100 km seaward. Which is why larger chopper capable OPVs are necessary.
IMO,the Kobbens may be at the end of sealife. Can they go another 10-15 years without any major upgrades?
Ideally we'd build our own OPVs and may yet still but not immediately. Btw,the RN is no longer thought of as an ally,times have changed! We realised paying through the nose for overrated overpriced equipment with neo colonial conditions attached isn't in our interests.

 

[Penguin]

I think I should reiterate. Kenya is now operating under a subtle semi Manifest destiny type policy. All KDF arms have undergone unprecedented upgrades in equipment. The KAF now has mi-17s,chinooks and the first of 35 f-15ees have been delivered while the army has new z-9s,mi28s and ka 50s;the navy has been left out,though a guesstimate informs me they get the smallest share of the budget at most 25%-don't quote me. The entire regional land and sea space from the E.Drc,the CAR,S.Sudan till Puntland is considered vital to national interests and so 'our' coastline expands accordingly-like I said from the Somali horn to Northern Mozambique coast. To meet this requirement,ships with sea denial,force projection,anti piracy,disaster relief operations are needed,multi purpose frigates or large corvettes like the Pattani. Potential enemies aren't Puntlanders,Mozambicans or Tanzanians but those in the West who would arm and instigate resource wars,which is normally the case in this part of the world.I still can't post links but on a map thats at least 3000 km length and 100 km seaward. Which is why larger chopper capable OPVs are necessary.
IMO,the Kobbens may be at the end of sealife. Can they go another 10-15 years without any major upgrades?
Ideally we'd build our own OPVs and may yet still but not immediately. Btw,the RN is no longer thought of as an ally,times have changed! We realised paying through the nose for overrated overpriced equipment with neo colonial conditions attached isn't in our interests.

F-15E? Supposedly from Israel? 2x very unlikely. Probably a typo: 15 RJAF (Jordanian) F-5E's were delivered to Kenya (bringing the total incl. earlier F-5s to about 35).

In July 2008, it was reported that Kenya will spend 1.5 billion KSh to buy 15 former Jordanian Air Force F-5s, 13 F-5E and two F-5F upgraded with Rockwell Collins avionics[82] (plus training and spare parts).They will be added or eventually replace the current F-5 fleet[83]

Northrop F-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that Pattani is NOT a corvette but an OPV.

Note that when Kenyan FACs were refitted, their AShMs were REMOVED (i.e. sea denial capability limited)

Kobben: you need a set of boats to get a service started with. The fact that Poland currently operates 5 modernized ex-Norwegian 207s (of the same age) attests to their remaining capability.

Piracy aside, which actual NAVAL threats (from what countries) does Kenia face, to warrent the acquisition of multi-purpose frigates and the creation of a submarine service for sea-denial? Ethiopia, Madagaskar, Mozambique and Sudan have no navies to speak of. So, are we looking at threats from South Africa, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Oman???

 

[Armstrong]

@ Penguin : F 22 P - I dunno ! But how does as an Azmat Class FAC sound like ?

 

[Penguin]

@ Penguin : F 22 P - I dunno ! But how does as an Azmat Class FAC sound like ?

Not the Kenyan ticket, I suppose, as they are moving up to larger tonnage with Jasiri, and the trouble with their other 400-500 ton boats is insuffient seakeeping for prolonged deep water ops. The 1,520t Italian NUMC (Commandante class) might fit their bill. If necessary, heavier armed versions are available (ordered, I believe, by UAE: Abu Dabi class) or can be developed ("modular" light frigate / corvette concept called MOSAIC = Modular Open System Architecture Integrated Concept prosented in DSA 2008, Kuala Lumpur). OPV version available too (Sirio class NUPA)
Commandante Class Patrol Ships - Naval Technology
Corvette NUMC
Corvette
ASW VESSEL
OPV NUPA
OPV
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=31062.0
http://navaltoday.com/2012/02/09/italy-orizzonte-sistemi-navali-presents-mosaic/

see http://trishulgroup.blogspot.nl/2009_03_01_archive.html

Or a Minerva class, with Aspide removed and helodeck installed in place of it.

If they want a real ship, there will be some Italian Meastrale class frigates retiring. Apparently, Phillippine navy wants to pick up a few (in face of Chinese naval expansion). Or pick up some of the 4 decommed RN Type 22 batch 3 'awaiting disposal'.

 

[valkyr_96]

it would also be nice to send your servicemen to naval institutions to perhaps friendly countries or the type of power you see you want to emerge as....off topic it would be nice if you start a 'This is Kenya' (places food culture friends foes) thread it nice to know for people who still have a fair amount of time left to travel around or things we might have missed/forgotten during geography class

 

[IHK_PK]

We still have Long way to go in manufacturing on our own. I am not denigrating, as we produced some Latest stuff and tech. i mean we can't provide u stuff like f-22p or SSK Agosta.

 

[Nishan_101]

The person who'll give you precise answer regarding frigates-corvettes is Member Penguin.

Please check the Thread it has most of information regarding Agosta 90B Submarines.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/169746-ssk-agosta-90b-class-attack-submarine-information-pool.html

Agosta 90B atleast 3 of them are in French dockyard with later 4th one sold to Malaysia in 2009 which is used as Training submarine; are in excellent condition ready to be refurbished upgraded, Pakistan did not acquire any of them but showed interested to build 4th but little progress was made in negotiations with France and idea dropped completely, but it could possibly be a good choice or startup for Kenya but cost would be the concern. Price tag at the time Pakistan purchased was $775M-800M not including the recent upgrades. Would Kenya be able to procure 2 for approx $400M-$450M?

The biggest mistake that PN did was stopped and slowed down the induction of Agosta-90Bs like they can have about 7 of these till 2006 if they followed the right path. And can also be exported 3 to BD, 2 to Srilanka and may be 3-4 to Kenya and some others as well.

If we had started assembling the 2nd and 3rd one simultaneously in 1999 and then producing 4th and 5th one in the next 2 years and then 6th and 7th one till 2005-6 then we can started producing two of these in every 1.5 years to supply to BDs, Srilanka and Kenya too with French Permission which we had at that time too.

Source:
Agosta Class submarine orders and deliveries
Three Agosta 90Bs were ordered by the Pakistan Navy in September 1994. The first, Khalid (S137), was built at DCN’s Cherbourg yard and was commissioned in 1999. The second, Saad, assembled at Karachi Naval Dockyard, was launched in August 2002 and was commissioned in December 2003. The third, Hamza, was constructed and assembled in Karachi, launched in August 2006 and commissioned in September 2008.
Work on the Hamza was halted for a time following a terrorist attack in May 2002, which killed 11 French engineers in Karachi. The third submarine was fitted with the MESMA air-independent propulsion system. The MESMA AIP successfully completed Pakistan Navy acceptance trials. In March 2007, Pakistan placed an order with DCNS for the retrofit of the MESMA AIP to the first two Khalid Class submarines, which were delivered in December 2011.
Pakistan has been given a license by DCNS to offer commercial production of the submarines to potential customers.

Although PN also has a great chance of joining the French with Scorpion and Andrasta Submarine Program along with Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia and may be some others as well to start inducting them after 7 Agosta-90Bs.
We should have upgraded the current facility as well as build the third shipyard in 1999 to add capability.

 

[kenyannoobie]

F-15E? Supposedly from Israel? 2x very unlikely. Probably a typo: 15 RJAF (Jordanian) F-5E's were delivered to Kenya (bringing the total incl. earlier F-5s to about 35).

Northrop F-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that Pattani is NOT a corvette but an OPV.

Note that when Kenyan FACs were refitted, their AShMs were REMOVED (i.e. sea denial capability limited)

Kobben: you need a set of boats to get a service started with. The fact that Poland currently operates 5 modernized ex-Norwegian 207s (of the same age) attests to their remaining capability.

Piracy aside, which actual NAVAL threats (from what countries) does Kenia face, to warrent the acquisition of multi-purpose frigates and the creation of a submarine service for sea-denial? Ethiopia, Madagaskar, Mozambique and Sudan have no navies to speak of. So, are we looking at threats from South Africa, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Oman???

Not a typo,penguin. The Jordanian f5 deal is different from the f15 ee contract which was inked during the tenure of ex CDF Gen.Kianga. I can't find any info on the net and the KDF hasn't released photos,but trust me,the first of the 35 strike eagles are here. Though they're currently based in the sparsely populated Wajir far up north according to an insider.
The FACs had their AShms removed to be installed on the Jasiri while they were relegated to a coastguard role.
Potential threats for the KN? Hmmm....things are never the way they seem. Lets go back in time to Rwanda 94,just before the greatest mass killing in recent times. Let me fill you in on detail,btw this isn't conspiracy theory. A month before the killings the US announced the 6th fleet would be temporarily stationed off Mombasa as part of its normal global ops. A week later the GoK raised eyebrows buying around 50 French Mistral manpads.
Moi,then prez was supposed to attend the signing of the Arusha accords in Tanzania that actually paved the way for Kagame and his boys by legitimizing their invasion. He was warned of assassination and skipped. The 2 presidents of Burundi and Rwanda were killed sparking off the 100 days you all saw. The Tanzanians wanted to get involved and stop the killings by invading Rwanda but Moi told them there were bigger behind the scenes players,while the Tz intel chief who passed the warning met a very strange fate 7 years later;he was shot by cops who said they thought he was a carjacker.
Later,quite sober researchers claimed the genocide,which was actually the RPF killing Hutus was part of a much wider plot to get rid of ALL regional leaders and replace with friendlier faces. If we had some serious sea denial capacity in the form of OPVs or Corvettes with proven shipkillers like Brahmos or Sunburn that would throw a giant monkey wrench in the plans of those I call the world rapers.

it would also be nice to send your servicemen to naval institutions to perhaps friendly countries or the type of power you see you want to emerge as....off topic it would be nice if you start a 'This is Kenya' (places food culture friends foes) thread it nice to know for people who still have a fair amount of time left to travel around or things we might have missed/forgotten during geography cla

I'm also seeing that may be best since this thread is already perhaps overloaded. How would I do that?

 

[Penguin]

KNS Jasiri ... is an OPV. Where will you put 2x(2+2) Otomat missiles (or 2x2, if you reserved the others for a 2nd unit to be built)? And, seeing as the Nyayo and consort have kept associated firecontrol equipments, how will the OPV target these missiles? There still is no real addressing of the issue of naval treat, requiring sea denial strategies! Finally, do you honestly think Kenya can scare e.g. the US fleet with 2 Otomat equipped OPVs, some corvettes and some coastal subs?) They'ld be sunk the second they left port (see Iraqi fleet / GW2)

It is in the same bracket as e.g. NS Elephant (S11), of the Namibian navy
http://ports.co.za/news/news_2012_08_03_01.php#eight
Sorry if that hurts your national pride.