Kejriwal's Vision For India-From What he says in his book 'Swaraj'

[Puchtoon]

If the crazy people(say the racist people in Khidki ext) want to come to a prejudicial decision, which is illegal, they don't need a Mohalla Sabha. So how are you going to prevent them? Bug their houses 24x7? What is the solution to this?

Your argument rings hollow here. Just because you fear without any basis, you want to keep the power to decide on local issues with an MLA sitting somewhere far, assuming that guy is a balanced man incapable of prejudicial decisions. So apparently everytime people should stand in lines begging him and reminding him of their street problems, to release a few thousand rupees.

Your argument is dead. If people are going to take an illegal initiative, a statutory assembly which will have set rules is not necessary for them. They will do it anyway.

HAHAHA your are having serious problems defending this BS



let me tell you what you are saying



YOUR POINT People will do crime even if there is no power with them[to save them from punishment].



Lets put your point in context of all india


If robber robs ,he will rob,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If rapist rapes ,he will rape whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If corrupt does corruption ,he will do,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

etc etc etc...[need more?]



Then why do we need police?




P.S there something called fear of punishment




@jbond197 @DRAY @Marxist @Chinese-Dragon @arp2041



The fun is anyone who is a adult is a member of gram(village)/moholla(city/town) sabha,nothing else needed.

I have forgot to mention that in OP,its not like panchayat

 

[Marxist]

HAHAHA your are having serious problems defending this BS



let me tell you what you are saying



YOUR POINT People will do crime even if there is no power with them[to save them from punishment].



Lets put your point in context of all india


If robber robs ,he will rob,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If rapist rapes ,he will rape whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If corrupt does corruption ,he will do,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

etc etc etc...[need more?]



Then why do we need police?




P.S there something called fear of punishment




@jbond197 @DRAY @Marxist @Chinese-Dragon @arp2041


The fun is anyone who is a adult is a member of gram(village)/moholla(city/town) sabha,nothing else needed.

I have forgot to mention that in OP,its not like panchayat

View attachment 17635

We have Grama sabhas in kerala ( Local governance in Kerala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,from my experience its just a chai biscuit meeting no use

 

[dray]

HAHAHA your are having serious problems defending this BS



let me tell you what you are saying



YOUR POINT People will do crime even if there is no power with them[to save them from punishment].



Lets put your point in context of all india


If robber robs ,he will rob,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If rapist rapes ,he will rape whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If corrupt does corruption ,he will do,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

etc etc etc...[need more?]



Then why do we need police?




P.S there something called fear of punishment




@jbond197 @DRAY @Marxist @Chinese-Dragon @arp2041


The fun is anyone who is a adult is a member of gram(village)/moholla(city/town) sabha,nothing else needed.

I have forgot to mention that in OP,its not like panchayat

View attachment 17635

Just imagine the kind of chaos & anarchy it would create, the power to appoint, stop salary, & dismissal of service of teachers, doctors, police, and all Govt. employees is a huge power, what will stop Gram Sabhas from misusing the powers as per their own interests? Gram Sabhas will get divided in the lines of caste, surnames, religion, or locality, and everybody will try to get 'their people' appointed for the job, the moment one group becomes more powerful than others, they will sack 'other groups people' and appoint their 'own people'. Maybe Doctors will be threatened for NOT doing sex determination of fetus or abortion of girl child, police will be threatened for NOT supporting honour killing, or maybe for stopping child marriage or dowry. Gram Sabhas will be able to do anything under some pretext, what stops them? Even in pdf we have a few moderators, imagine what will happen if everybody is a moderator here?

We can develop an appraisal system by people, we can make a strong grievance redressal system, but absolute power in the hands of just anybody above the age of 18 is a ridiculous idea.

 

[IND151]

The instruments of governance, law enforcement, judiciary, executive, parliament, as we know them, shall cease to exist, or at least, to matter. The mob will be sovereign. The police will have to take orders from the mob. The mob, or the gram sabha(for villages) or the mohalla sabha(for cities and towns), will be able to levy and collect its own taxes.

And who will ensure that mob has ability to judge the things rightly?

Most people can not run Co-Operative societies well. Imagine what will happen if such people get chance to control police?

The instruments of governance, law enforcement, judiciary, executive, parliament, as we know them, shall cease to exist, or at least, to matter

What about IAS officers? How the inexperienced mob/Gramsabha/ Mohalla Sabha are supposed to govern the nation (collectively) without IAS officers?

And will they take orders from these sabhas?

 

[jbond197]

The concept of giving power to punish people to Gram sabhas in akin to giving birth to Khap panchayats in every nook and corner of the country.. This is a big no no.

Giving power to Gram sabhas to decide on land acquisition mean we are asking for the introduction of a major hurdle in the path of development. These power to Gram sabha will help people like Medha patkar and India never see another Dam coming to existence. Infrastructure projects will suffer, Nuclear plants projects will suffer and so on. All these put together will hinder the growth of the country. I don't see how can this be any good for the nation.

Giving power to Gram sabha to levy taxes like property tax etc will be good only if they are used for some meaningful purpose like building schools etc not on some populist measures. Some one will be needed to monitor that Gram sabha is utilizing the funds meaningfully (who will that be?). Will they come under the ambit of Lokpal? Will they be punished if they indulge in corruption? if yes, then who will be the one responsible because all 18+ resident will be members of the sabha and all the decisions will be taken by majority. This will lead to a big time mess.

At the end of the day, all this appears to be age old (and failed) socialist/communist approaches which India definitely need to stay away from, if we want to become a developed nation at all.

 

[Puchtoon]

And who will ensure that mob has ability to judge the things rightly?

Most people can not run Co-Operative societies well. Imagine what will happen if such people get chance to control police?



What about IAS officers? How the inexperienced mob/Gramsabha/ Mohalla Sabha are supposed to govern the nation (collectively) without IAS officers?

And will they take orders from these sabhas?

Here is what sir kejriwal in his visionary document swaraj says:

"Even if we use all our resources in changing the laws governing the land,
governing the forest or the law governing the water resources, the laws would still be implemented by a
Collector of a district. But if he does not implement the laws or disregards the laws then we have no
recourse to any action against him. It has been happening often in our country that there are perfect
laws that have been enacted but each one of these laws have been violated. The government officials
who are supposed to implement these laws themselves violate the laws then there is no hope for the
country.

Therefore, it is necessary that there should be control of gram sabhas over these officials. Unless these
officials are answerable to the village gram sabhas which is empowered to punish an erring official fo r
dereliction of his duties no improvement can come about, in the system of education or health or water
or land or forest.

We have to catch hold of the proposed weapon “Accountability to people” which will be responsible to
bring about change. "

 

[Puchtoon]

Yogi yadav to pakistani channel about his mob culture motive 'swaraj'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you give chance to other AH,when you accuse anyone w/o proof

 

[rubyjackass]

HAHAHA your are having serious problems defending this BS



let me tell you what you are saying



YOUR POINT People will do crime even if there is no power with them[to save them from punishment].



Lets put your point in context of all india

Get your head checked. By your logic, people should not be given the power/right to earn money. Otherwise they might be able to show discrimination, persecute minorities and hire supari killers with the money.

If robber robs ,he will rob,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If rapist rapes ,he will rape whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

If corrupt does corruption ,he will do,whether there is law enforcing agency or not .

etc etc etc...[need more?]

No that is not my logic. That is your stupid understanding of what I said.
Your logic is don't give people any nutrition programmes because then rapists will grow stronger, criminals will get stronger. I am saying first let all people have nutrition and punish rapists and criminals as they should be.

People should have power to do some basic things around their localities instead of waiting in queue for some MLA. Just like people should be allowed to mow their front lawn without government permission. Your twisted logic comes in because the traditional parties don't enforce law when they should. Why did they not arrest the Khap panchayat members who passed the death judgement and prosecute them swiftly? Why do these Khap members get away with their political connections?

Your logic says, we should make people ask for government permission to eat. So that everytime they eat, we(your sense of 'we' here is twisted as well. You are able to believe in a guy called MLA here, who has a lot of clout and is actually not afraid of punishment, but not in the people who elected him and who are more equal before law and police) can ensure there is no discrimination or persecution.

Then why do we need police?




P.S there something called fear of punishment

Enforce IPC properly, the fear of punishment will automatically come in those Khap members. What you are saying is don't let people to take any decision because they will stop being afraid and helpless. Fear of punishment is independent of power. It is definitely independent of the power to eat, the power fix your colony water pipeline and the power to ask your local school teacher to get his as* to school 6 days a week.

@jbond197 @DRAY @Marxist @Chinese-Dragon @arp2041


The fun is anyone who is a adult is a member of gram(village)/moholla(city/town) sabha,nothing else needed.

I have forgot to mention that in OP,its not like panchayat

View attachment 17635

I know what a gram sabha means. It happens at least twice in every village every year.

 

[rubyjackass]

Just imagine the kind of chaos & anarchy it would create, the power to appoint, stop salary, & dismissal of service of teachers, doctors, police, and all Govt. employees is a huge power, what will stop Gram Sabhas from misusing the powers as per their own interests? Gram Sabhas will get divided in the lines of caste, surnames, religion, or locality, and everybody will try to get 'their people' appointed for the job, the moment one group becomes more powerful than others, they will sack 'other groups people' and appoint their 'own people'. Maybe Doctors will be threatened for NOT doing sex determination of fetus or abortion of girl child, police will be threatened for NOT supporting honour killing, or maybe for stopping child marriage or dowry. Gram Sabhas will be able to do anything under some pretext, what stops them? Even in pdf we have a few moderators, imagine what will happen if everybody is a moderator here?

We can develop an appraisal system by people, we can make a strong grievance redressal system, but absolute power in the hands of just anybody above the age of 18 is a ridiculous idea.

Who will lose if the gram sabha gets rid of a good teacher? Who will suffer if Gram sabha appoints a useless teacher just on the pretext that he belongs to a caste? Anyway all teachers should pass a test conducted by the state government to get a job. Only now, they wait for a decade to get a job. If Gram sabhas have power to appoint teachers, they can appoint someone who applied to them with the highest marks. I don't know why you think villagers are some uncivilized brutes who have no job but kill femate foetuses. No person especially from a village will want to get rid of a good doctor on some BS measures. Doctors are treated as God there.

What is police doing now with honor killings? Almost always the incidents come out because of some good people who are not police. We can have ways to protect police from witch hunting. Besides why do you expect Gram Sabhas to act on someone without evidence?

The same rules of reasonableness that apply for any officials and people applies there. Why not have some directives to Gram sabhas saying they can recruit people based on their test marks and not arbitrarily? If a candidate gets illegally rejected, they can always approach the ombudsman who keeps a check on the Gram sabhas.

Currently we have MLAs who can slap collectors and police officers on the face. These same officials show their 'talent' before people. Have you ever seen a policeman call you Sir and question you respectfully?

Your comparison with pdf is baseless. We have mods in pdf who are unaccountable. They work because if they screw up anything badly we will find another forum to discuss like this. In a way, we are apprising forums and changing them. People have no options for their local problems.

Here is what sir kejriwal in his visionary document swaraj says:

"Even if we use all our resources in changing the laws governing the land,
governing the forest or the law governing the water resources, the laws would still be implemented by a
Collector of a district. But if he does not implement the laws or disregards the laws then we have no
recourse to any action against him. It has been happening often in our country that there are perfect
laws that have been enacted but each one of these laws have been violated. The government officials
who are supposed to implement these laws themselves violate the laws then there is no hope for the
country.

Therefore, it is necessary that there should be control of gram sabhas over these officials. Unless these
officials are answerable to the village gram sabhas which is empowered to punish an erring official fo r
dereliction of his duties no improvement can come about, in the system of education or health or water
or land or forest.

We have to catch hold of the proposed weapon “Accountability to people” which will be responsible to
bring about change. "

The first para explains it. A collector should be accountable to people if he violates the laws or does not implement the laws. THat does not mean, he can be punished arbitrarily.

 

[rubyjackass]

The concept of giving power to punish people to Gram sabhas in akin to giving birth to Khap panchayats in every nook and corner of the country.. This is a big no no.

Giving power to Gram sabhas to decide on land acquisition mean we are asking for the introduction of a major hurdle in the path of development. These power to Gram sabha will help people like Medha patkar and India never see another Dam coming to existence. Infrastructure projects will suffer, Nuclear plants projects will suffer and so on. All these put together will hinder the growth of the country. I don't see how can this be any good for the nation.

FYI land acquisition cannot be done without Gram sabha permission even today. There are special laws which override them today. They will be present even later.

I am surprised to see some people who want capitalism like in the USA but they don't believe in compensating the land owners according to the market rate(like in the USA) nor do they believe in ensuring that the compensation is timely. In my opinion, this is the root of the evils of national projects and not the land acquisition as such. Nuclear plants are a different issue altogether. They face similar resistance everywhere and there is logic to it. 35 km radius of land is under risk in case of a nuclear incident.

Giving power to Gram sabha to levy taxes like property tax etc will be good only if they are used for some meaningful purpose like building schools etc not on some populist measures.

Why would a gram sabha be populist? Its their money. THey don't need to show off. They will be more careful than people who want to attract votes.

Some one will be needed to monitor that Gram sabha is utilizing the funds meaningfully (who will that be?). Will they come under the ambit of Lokpal? Will they be punished if they indulge in corruption? if yes, then who will be the one responsible because all 18+ resident will be members of the sabha and all the decisions will be taken by majority. This will lead to a big time mess.

All decisions of Gram sabha will be transparent. Kejriwal talks about an ombudsman. I believe this ombudsman should be from a completely different area so that they dont have any bias. And how do you define corruption in a Gram Sabha? Who needs to get bribed if the given out contract is transparently decided?

At the end of the day, all this appears to be age old (and failed) socialist/communist approaches which India definitely need to stay away from, if we want to become a developed nation at all.

Man read what you have written. This is the exact opposite of socialism. I have to pity that you wrote this is a communist approach. The very aim of communism is a proletariat dictatorship. What are you talking? This is the new governance which every developed nation has in some form or other and which we should have.

 

[Puchtoon]

Get your head checked. By your logic, people should not be given the power/right to earn money. Otherwise they might be able to show discrimination, persecute minorities and hire supari killers with the money.

Either you are have problems or i don't know what brain you have

Now your are comparing POLICING POWERS = RIGHT TO EARN MONEY

I'mean what the H.......then let me tell you no one has powers to become income tax officer just because he earns money

No that is not my logic. That is your stupid understanding of what I said.
Your logic is don't give people any nutrition programmes because then rapists will grow stronger, criminals will get stronger. I am saying first let all people have nutrition and punish rapists and criminals as they should be.

Even a child can understand the difference between nutrition programs and policing powers .

You are just making up thing ...give me some valid argument

People should have power to do some basic things around their localities instead of waiting in queue for some MLA. Just like people should be allowed to mow their front lawn without government permission. Your twisted logic comes in because the traditional parties don't enforce law when they should.

Basic things doesn't mean providing them ability to hire fire officials.......its just mob mania,you may like it ,i don't.

Your logic says, we should make people ask for government permission to eat. So that everytime they eat, we(your sense of 'we' here is twisted as well. .

Now you are comparing such unsolicited power to eating Oh c'mmon

Enforce IPC properly, the fear of punishment will automatically come in those Khap members. What you are saying is don't let people to take any decision because they will stop being afraid and helpless. Fear of punishment is independent of power. It is definitely independent of the power to eat, the power fix your colony water pipeline and the power to ask your local school teacher to get his as* to school 6 days a week.

According to swaraj ,IPC will be in hands of mobs,how will the fear of punishment come ?how?

Your logic is like they are doing bad so let me do worse,what shit is this?

I know what a gram sabha means. It happens at least twice in every village every year.

Good then talk sense

The first para explains it. A collector should be accountable to people if he violates the laws or does not implement the laws. THat does not mean, he can be punished arbitrarily.

And they will sack him whenever he doesn't agree to their unlawful demands

Mob is the law,mob is the constitution

India will be like Of the mob,by the mob,for the mob

 

[GreenFoe]

That's just ridiculous,people must be educated on this

 

[rubyjackass]

Either you are have problems or i don't know what brain you have

Now your are comparing POLICING POWERS = RIGHT TO EARN MONEY

Again a strawman argument. Nobody gets policing powers. It is an appraisal and governance mechanism. You are the one making stupid comparisons. You are comparing Gram Sabha members to criminals. Get a life where you stop being a snob.

I'mean what the H.......then let me tell you no one has powers to become income tax officer just because he earns money
Even a child can understand the difference between nutrition programs and policing powers .

The basic powers we are talking about are as good as nutrition. Basic education, nutrition, local cleanliness are as basic as they can get. Noone will become income tax officer.

You are just making up thing ...give me some valid argument
Basic things doesn't mean providing them ability to hire fire officials.......its just mob mania,you may like it ,i don't.

Hiring a panchayat teacher and such local officials is a basic thing. I am surprised you are able to live one day on this earth with all your insecurities.

Now you are comparing such unsolicited power to eating Oh c'mmon

From a governance point of view, hiring a local teacher(your so called unsolicited power, sic) is as basic as eating.

According to swaraj ,IPC will be in hands of mobs,how will the fear of punishment come ?how?

Get a life. Your town folks could not hire a primary school teacher for you. That is why you are not able to read properly. IPC won't be in the hands of mobs. Only local people get to hire some basic workers, on the basis of merit if you may.

Your logic is like they are doing bad so let me do worse,what shit is this?

This is not worse. This is giving power to people for doing basic governance. It is definitely not worse than having a lakh teacher posts unfilled in a state.

And they will sack him whenever he doesn't agree to their unlawful demands

Everyone should be accountable. So will these Gram Sabhas. There is no room for arbitrariness.

Mob is the law,mob is the constitution

India will be like Of the mob,by the mob,for the mob

Since you clearly ran out of arguments and have started to attack strawmen and your own arguments. I will rest my case here. Idiot, this is real democracy we are talking about. Not the one which you call democracy where once in 5 years, a guy does rounds in your area, makes some fake promises, never to be seen again. Nobody cares if he is not seen. But the problem is they have to depend on this absconding guy for their local problems. This necessitates more devolution of power and people should be part of their governance. There is no other option. Your so called grievance redressal systems wont help. They are useful only for post-mortem. Nobody is accountable to act on the post-mortem report. It is simply impossible to force them to act on such reports.

 

[Puchtoon]

Again a strawman argument. Nobody gets policing powers. It is an appraisal and governance mechanism. You are the one making stupid comparisons. You are comparing Gram Sabha members to criminals. Get a life where you stop being a snob.

The basic powers we are talking about are as good as nutrition. Basic education, nutrition, local cleanliness are as basic as they can get. Noone will become income tax officer.

Hire, Fire, stopping salary are basic powers ? Ohh.. man what more basic powers are needed?

ESSENTIALLY this means putting police under unaccountable mob ,disastrous and BS thought and should not be endorsed by any person with even a single neuron.

Hiring a panchayat teacher and such local officials is a basic thing. I am surprised you are able to live one day on this earth with all your insecurities.
From a governance point of view, hiring a local teacher(your so called unsolicited power, sic) is as basic as eating.

Why are you talking again and again about teachers but not police and other administrative officials ? Aree bhai wo bhi honge mob ke neeche :|


How would a mob take decisions ? Areee ye apni jaat/moholle/etc ka he rakhlo? Mob cannot take decision,whole world knows it except some aapis living in dreamland


There is absolutely no big precedent of mob taking workable decisions .

Get a life. Your town folks could not hire a primary school teacher for you. That is why you are not able to read properly. IPC won't be in the hands of mobs. Only local people get to hire some basic workers, on the basis of merit if you may.

HAHAHAHA Basic workers ...



Can they force policemen to do any job ? YES they can
Can they force teacher to do any job ? YES they can
Can they force collector to do any job ? YES they can
Can they force doctor to do any job ? YES they can
Can they force any government official to do any job ? YES they can


My god ...so much basic powers for basic works

Everyone should be accountable. So will these Gram Sabhas. There is no room for arbitrariness.

You can hold accountable only those who hold some post,in unaccountable mobsabha no one holds posts ,so you can;t.

Since you clearly ran out of arguments and have started to attack strawmen and your own arguments. I will rest my case here. Idiot, this is real democracy we are talking about.

Thank you,we are happy with 'FAKE' democracy,apply that in some already ruined land like Afghanistan(Hell kabul people would kill me for that )

Not the one which you call democracy where once in 5 years, a guy does rounds in your area, makes some fake promises, never to be seen again. Nobody cares if he is not seen. But the problem is they have to depend on this absconding guy for their local problems. This necessitates more devolution of power and people should be part of their governance. There is no other option. Your so called grievance redressal systems wont help. They are useful only for post-mortem. Nobody is accountable to act on the post-mortem report. It is simply impossible to force them to act on such reports.

Problem is that you don;t want other solution,you don;t like it because you have full faith that this mobocracy will destroy the system and your frustration will end .



You just want to end everything that frustrates you,you don't actually want any solution, this is just a way to end the system




Sadly this unworkable dangerous unaccountable mob system is no solution,like it or not

 

[dray]

Who will lose if the gram sabha gets rid of a good teacher? Who will suffer if Gram sabha appoints a useless teacher just on the pretext that he belongs to a caste? Anyway all teachers should pass a test conducted by the state government to get a job. Only now, they wait for a decade to get a job. If Gram sabhas have power to appoint teachers, they can appoint someone who applied to them with the highest marks.

You are talking about an utopian world where people will leave to pursue their own selfish goals and work towards common good, I am saying even in the Gram Sabhas there will be some people/group who will have greater influence over the decision making process, enabling them to exploit those powers to their own benefit.

I don't know why you think villagers are some uncivilized brutes who have no job but kill femate foetuses. No person especially from a village will want to get rid of a good doctor on some BS measures. Doctors are treated as God there.

I don't think villagers are some uncivilized brutes, but I do think there are many uncivilized brutes among common people including those who live in villages. And that's why female foeticide is a harsh reality. And haven't you heard about many such instances where doctors were beaten up and hospitals ransacked by mob due to alleged deficiency in treatment? Doctors are treated as God in villages or anywhere, at least not anymore.

What is police doing now with honor killings? Almost always the incidents come out because of some good people who are not police. We can have ways to protect police from witch hunting. Besides why do you expect Gram Sabhas to act on someone without evidence?

So if police is not doing enough to stop honor killing, then the solution is to handover their fate to the honor killers!! Recently in Birbhum area a girl was raped by a dozen people by order of the "Salishi Sabha" as a punishment for extra marital affair, and the whole village is with the rapists, should police listen to the villagers or lose their jobs?

And are you sure Gram Sabhas are qualified enough to evaluate evidences and act accordingly? I never knew the job of our judiciary is so damn easy!! I guess you didn't follow any of the numerous instances of wonderful judgements delivered by many existing "Sabhas".

The same rules of reasonableness that apply for any officials and people applies there. Why not have some directives to Gram sabhas saying they can recruit people based on their test marks and not arbitrarily? If a candidate gets illegally rejected, they can always approach the ombudsman who keeps a check on the Gram sabhas.

And how do you do that without a centralized system? And if you need a centralized system to appoint based on test scores, then what is the role of Gram Sabhas in it? Please don't get emotional about it just because it was proposed by Kejriwal, and please apply your own brain and think about it in a cohesive manner. What you are suggesting cannot go with Kejriwal's idea.

Currently we have MLAs who can slap collectors and police officers on the face. These same officials show their 'talent' before people. Have you ever seen a policeman call you Sir and question you respectfully?

Yes, such misuse of power is a big problem, and unfortunately it seems that your solution is to give that "slapping rights" to common villagers. Once they have such powers, they will act just like those MLAs, human nature.

Your comparison with pdf is baseless. We have mods in pdf who are unaccountable. They work because if they screw up anything badly we will find another forum to discuss like this. In a way, we are apprising forums and changing them. People have no options for their local problems.

The first para explains it. A collector should be accountable to people if he violates the laws or does not implement the laws. THat does not mean, he can be punished arbitrarily.

My comparison with pdf was one of the best comparisons I ever gave, alas you didn't understand it. I said make every member in pdf a moderator with full moderation powers, and then watch the fun. Kejriwal's idea is to make everyone a moderator.