Kayani wants India’s Afghan mission closed

[linkinpark]

There cannot be any thing more dear than security of Pakistan!
So now tell us what eastward route Pakistani flihgts are operating?

China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia or anything towards east of Pakistan.

How do you reach to iran? through Pakistani waters!!!!

Have a look at the map. Try to plot route from Mumbai port to Chahbhar port, Iran. We don't have to be in Pakistani waters.

I also believe you had to declare to iran what you are shipping... while Pakistan had given you uncensord route...

Yes, we declare everything to Iran as we don't have anything to hide.

As i know since 1st october 2007 indian trucks are passing through Pakistan but covertly. when media is not looking or is fed wel enough.

Pakistan doesn't give any access to Indian-Afghan trade through Pakistan. The only time Pak gave access is when India was supplying nutritious biscuits to Afghanistan otherwise all other trade is not allowed by Pakistan.

Pakistani markets are flooded with tax free indian goods officialy patronised by govt. of Pakistan.

Indo-Pak trade through Wagah border picking up

I think you should understand difference between Indo-Pak trade and Indo-Afghan trade through Pakistan.

 

[linkinpark]

Indeed, yes. The GOI and it's state governents promote the idea of caste - the GOI and state governents include programs and quotas for persons based on caste. This is an example of "Trying in an Indian way", I suppose, it's regrettable, I am sure you'll agree.

GoI doesn't promote casteism but uses caste as a marker to identify the socially backward people for positive discrimination. There is lot of difference between GoI allowing castes to dominate/massacre other castes versus positively discriminating socially backward castes. Analogous example being positive discrimination of African-americans in US and women in Sweden. I hope you get the difference.

 

[muse]

Linkin


I don't really understand why you guys are as defensive about caste system as you are - you seem to want it both ways, on the one hand, you want to be seen as reforming liberals with regard to caste, claiming you've done away it and on the other hand, it's such a overwhelming reality of how Hindus organize themselves and all citizens of India that the fig leaf doesn't quite help.

You call it positive discrimination - it's discrimination nevertheless, just like what the caste system itself, right? I mean social inequality is a problem in India that's routed in the very fabric of Hindu-ism, right? And so what's the point of hiding from that reality, I mean, who's going to allow you to play osterich?

You are exactly right that social inequality also exists in other countries, you cite the examples of US and Sweden, but neither of these hope to hide behind a cover of discrimination - neither of these says things like "we've outlawed" and then go about forming policies to enable it.

 

[karan.1970]

First, You agreeing that the Indian government promotes caste system. Second, "fast tracking" is simply not required, all are equal or they are not.

Whoa... Are you saying that identifying segments of people who because of past caste based discrimination (not yet removed fully) are stuck in the vicious circle of poverty and giving them preferential treatment is undesirable.

All being equal is good and nice on paper, but from a practical pov, if a section is known to have been left behind, why would identifying it and ensuring a helping hand bad??

Whats next?? No Brail for blind?? or No special arrangements for physically challenged..?? Since that means not treating them as equals....

 

[linkinpark]

Linkin


I don't really understand why you guys are as defensive about caste system as you are - you seem to want it both ways, on the one hand, you want to be seen as reforming liberals with regard to caste, caliming you've done away it and on the other hand, it's such a overwhelming reality of how Hindus organize themselves and all citizens of India that the fig leaf doesn't quite help.

You call it positive discrimination - it's discrimination nevertheless, just like what the caste system itself, right? I mean social inequality is a problem in India that's route in the very fabric of Hindu-ism, right? And so what's the point of hiding from that reality, I mean, how's going to allow you to play osterich?

You are exactly right that social inequality also exists in other countries, you cite the examples of US and Sweden, but neither of these hope to hide behind a cover of discrimination - neither of these says things like "we've outlawed" and then go about forming policies to enable it.

This needs a nuanced response. India wants it only one way - of preventing use caste system to oppress other people (which has been prevalent in India). People in India still identify themselves by caste much like people identify themselves by race, ethnicity, religion, gender, skin color etc. It cannot be eradicated in one go. Just like it is not possible to eradicate different sects of Islam or ethnicity or race among populations it is also not possible to eradicate casteism in one go and it takes concerted effort. It has been there for thousands of years and it is difficult to brake those shackles. What you need to appreciate is the fact that GoI has all the good intentions of equitable opportunities to various castes which are at different levels of social and economic ladder. Eradication of casteism needs a lot of social engineering and proper education of people. GoI took effective steps of positive discrimination of socially and economically backward castes as a means of social engineering to give people form those castes equal opportunity as that of rich and socially forward castes. It is a means of achieving equality from which point it is much easier to eradicate casteism. This is evident from the fact that much of Urban Indians not only marry among different castes but also different religions.

Though ideally, I would not want use of caste as a way of positive discrimination by means of quotas and reservation but GoI finds it easy that way, for a number reasons, rather than economy based approach owing to ease of use of caste as a marker both at state and central level.

 

[muse]

linkin


Let me get this straight the GOI has the best intentions, the Hindus of India cannot be trusted by the GOI - is that what you are saying? Honestly read your post - the people are tied to the caste system, but the valiant, crusading govt is hoping to prevent the caste system to be used for evil or bad -- as if it was a childrens cartoon.

I read much from some Indians how urban attitudes are changing and yet I see very little evidence of this - a good friend of mine always asks other Indians she meets their name - I asked her why she always does that, and her response was that it tell you their caste - a filtering system of sorts and certainly not about giving people an equal opportunity. So, I'm rather sceptical about these claims that in urban areas yadah yadah.

It seems that these years of independence have been a stuggle with regard to caste, is that a fair statement, in your opinion?

Linkin
in your opinion, can caste system be seperated from Hindu-ism? I mean it's not about sects and such like Christianity or Islam, it's more basic or a more fundamental kind of thing isn't it?

 

[karan.1970]

can we atleast change the name of the thread to reflect whats being discussed..May be we will have more like minded people on the thread then?

 

[muse]

Karan
Every thread on the forum, ends up with Indians mouthing off about terrorism and Islam, regardless of the name of the thread - why is that you don't have a problem with that? - - I mean you guys don't moderate yourselves, do you imagine we don't know how to do it for you?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I won't have enough time to respond in detail for a few days, but the suggestion of 'Hindu blood' or 'Muslim blood' are both nonsensical.

Pakistanis have the blood of their ancestors in them, ancestors that they possibly share with all humans (if you believe in the human migration theory and the fact that we all originated from Africa). A little nearer to the present, in terms of timelines, and Pakistanis have the blood of the ethnic and racial groups that inhabited the lands comprising Pakistan today, as do Indians the blood of the ethnic and racial groups that inhabited the lands the comprise the modern Indian State, with the requisite intermingling through migration, trade and other contacts.

Hinduism, Islam, Christianity etc. are belief systems - one cannot rationally argue that one possesses 'Hindu blood' or 'Muslim blood'.

 

[Jackdaws]

What does Kayani have to do with Hindu and Muslim bloodlines? It's a shame that any discussion between Indians and Pakistan is so rooted in the past and so indifferent to the future. Do you believe that the British and French and Germans and Italians would be able to sign a single agreement between them let alone create the European Union if all they discussed was the past wars and invasions? We have gotten along a lot better than most of those guys.

 

[Dark Angel]

Kayani wants India’s Afghan mission closed



Wanting is something and ordering is something if the afghan people dont want indians there they could not have been there all that these coward terrorist can do is wear a burqa and bomb innocent people

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

So it all comes to Adam(AS) , the first man to walk the earth...

 

[muse]

It's a shame that any discussion between Indians and Pakistan is so rooted in the past and so indifferent to the future

Indian "friends" spoke of "memories" - perhaps your comments will allow them to reconsider.

Wanting is something and ordering is something

Kiyani has not ordered any such thing - he's merely making his opinion and desire, known - why must you Indians always over react?

But Why are there Indian consulates on the Pakistan/Afghan border? I mean are they providing services to imaginary Indians crossing the Pakistan Afghan border?

 

[Jackdaws]

Indian "friends" spoke of "memories" - perhaps your comments will allow them to reconsider.





Kiyani has not ordered any such thing - he's merely making his opinion and desire, known - why must you Indians always over react?

But Why are there Indian consulates on the Pakistan/Afghan border? I mean are they providing services to imaginary Indians crossing the Pakistan Afghan border?

I am fine with memories. I am all for archives and historical reference points. As far as they don't become an albatross. India has had its share of bloodshed through the ages but I can't hold anyone responsible for something that happened thousands of years ago.

I would just like to know how many Indian consulates are there in Afghanistan ?

 

[muse]

So why are there so many Indian consulates in Afghanistan, for instance, in Mazar, in Herat, in Jalalabad, in Kandahar? What's their purpose? To which Indians are they providing services?