Kayani wants India’s Afghan mission closed

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Let me make it easy for you. So that the context is very clear and we are on the same page.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario. USA has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq (may be Pakistan as well if that helps you get the context better). Along with the soldiers comes an army of pastors ready to convert the heathens and deliver them from hell. The official policy is to levy a tax on all Muslims and kill many of them just for being Muslims.

After a time the situation is like: One third of people are Christians. 10,000 mosques destroyed and Churches built on their ruins. Millions are killed. The Christians coverts think they should be supporting Americans as they share the religion.

Needless to say the relations between the Muslims and the Christian converts are not the best. The Christians even divide the country as they can't live with the Muslims they think they were ruling till just the other day. Many Christians are still left behind in the old country though.

Now, an Iraqi (or Afghan or Pakistani) Muslim says that we should move beyond those hatreds. Let's reconcile and close the chapter you just say sorry for those atrocities and destruction of mosques.

The Christian convert replies: Didn't we build Churches in place of those destroyed mosques? Do you have no place for mosques in your country?

Sounds a bit silly! Doesn't it?

That is by the way happening in Iraq where christian missionaries are engaged in that sort of activities ... !!!

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod

I welcome the change in your tone and ask if as you claim you are serious why is that you have chosen to disregard comments by labeling them cryptic?

I didn't disregard anything. I replied to what I could make out.

And why is it, if you are serious, that you have allowed yourself to fall on the backfoot with defensive arguments?

That is just your perception. Perhaps you are trying to read between the lines where there is nothing between the lines.

Don't try too hard. Just focus on what I am explicitly saying.

Look fella, this discussion began by asking what the role of "memory" is and ought to be - it turned out that it's role is that of ideology.

From there you took it to insulting all Muslims in your Will Durant quote - having come up with zilch there you are on the backfoot with trying to defend your caste system and it's outrages.

You want to be serious? get back to the original idea.

I am there all along. There was no insult! I just stated plain facts and facts should never cause insult.

The caste system was an unnecessary diversion from you. I just replied to you, not defended anything.

You sir, are imagining things by trying too hard. Take it easy, there is no hidden agenda other than just trying to understand your POV.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Vinod2070

You know how many Hindus converted to christianity while the Brits ruled subcontinent, compare the figures to those of Muslims converted to Christianity.

The fact that people were sick and tired of evil Hindu Cast system that they litrely felt a sense of purity in being a christian rather than be a cursed Hindu untouchable. Whereas such cast system was invisible in the Muslim community and that is why they did gaved the Brits some tough time in Ruling India..!!!

 

[BATMAN]

Sorry, guys i'm jumping in without reading the history but commenting on subject... it is very easy for Pakistan to close india's afghan mission!

Imagine Pakistan deny india any sort of transit incl. air!!! how can indians come to Kabul?

IMO indians should be thankful for Pakistani gratitude instead of complaining....

 

[muse]

It most certainly was an insult offered to all Muslims - you present quotes that serve as revisionist history (more ideology) then you resort of offering out right lies by suggesting that the Indian government plays no role in propagating the caste system, when the Indian government organizes entire segments of society by caste - and you hope to offer defense of that miserable record.

You ask if Muslims ought to apologise to the destruction of temples - and in doing so you offer to hold complicit all Muslims - even though those who did are now dead and yet those who destroyed Babri masjid are still alive - will Hindus apologise for that? And if so why haven't they?

You make the prepostrous claim that Indian sre trying to undo the ravages of the caste system in their own way - presumably organizing segments of society by caste is one of those uniquely Indian ways?

Look, if you want to take this seriously you will have offer truthful statements not just gobbledygook, like "trying in their own way"

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod2070

You know how many Hindus converted to christianity while the Brits ruled subcontinent, compare the figures to those of Muslims converted to Christianity.

The fact that people were sick and tired of evil Hindu Cast system that they litrely felt a sense of purity in being a christian rather than be a cursed Hindu untouchable. Whereas such cast system was invisible in the Muslim community and that is why they did gaved the Brits some tough time in Ruling India..!!!

The Christian population in India is less than 2%!

I can post about some other evil stuff but that will derail the topic. Let me just say that the caste system is deeply entrenched among Muslims of the subcontinent. A thousand years of Islam has done nothing to erase it.

Again, Muslims didn't give any tough time to the British. But that is another topic for another day.

 

[RobbieS]

, when the Indian government organizes entire segments of society by caste


You make the prepostrous claim that Indian sre trying to undo the ravages of the caste system in their own way - presumably organizing segments of society by caste is one of those uniquely Indian ways?

No offense, but for the benefit of other Indians here, could you elaborate what you meant by the above? Are you trying to say that GoI actively promotes a caste based society?

 

[Vinod2070]

It most certainly was an insult offered to all Muslims - you present quotes that serve as revisionist history (more ideology) then you resort of offering out right lies by suggesting that the Indian government plays no role in propagating the caste system, when the Indian government organizes entire segments of society by caste - and you hope to offer defense of that miserable record.

You ask if Muslims ought to apologise to the destruction of temples - and in doing so you offer to hold complicit all Muslims - even though those who did are now dead and yet those who destroyed Babri masjid are still alive - will Hindus apologise for that? And if so why haven't they?

You make the prepostrous claim that Indian sre trying to undo the ravages of the caste system in their own way - presumably organizing segments of society by caste is one of those uniquely Indian ways?

Look, if you want to take this seriously you will have offer truthful statements not just gobbledygook, like "trying in their own way"

I hate to say it but it seems you are trying to weasel out.

I will no longer comment on this unnecessary and off topic issue of caste that you are so bent on bringing here.

I didn't say anything about all Muslims either. Again you are imagining things.

Yes, those barbarians are dead and are heroes to some! Now aren't they? What does that mean?

I expect better from you. I know that you are better than that.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

So wat are you trying to achieve here, i meam wats your point abt this whole Hindu-Muslim Discussion..???

 

[linkinpark]

Sorry, guys i'm jumping in without reading the history but commenting on subject... it is very easy for Pakistan to close india's afghan mission!

Imagine Pakistan deny india any sort of transit incl. air!!! how can indians come to Kabul?

IMO indians should be thankful for Pakistani gratitude instead of complaining....

India can also stop transit of air planes of Pakistan going east-wards. It works both ways. Right now Pakistan doesn't give any road access from India to Afghanistan. India gets its stuff through Iran (shipping) and other bordering countries of Afghanistan. So, Pakistan cannot do anything about it.

 

[Vinod2070]

So wat are you trying to achieve here, i meam wats your point abt this whole Hindu-Muslim Discussion..???

You will have to read the last 5-6 pages. I can't summarize it for you.

 

[muse]

Are you trying to say that GoI actively promotes a caste based society?

Indeed, yes. The GOI and it's state governents promote the idea of caste - the GOI and state governents include programs and quotas for persons based on caste. This is an example of "Trying in an Indian way", I suppose, it's regrettable, I am sure you'll agree.

 

[RobbieS]

Indeed, yes. The GOI and it's state governents promote the idea of caste - the GOI and state governents include programs and quotas for persons based on caste. This is an example of "Trying in an Indian way", I suppose, it's regrettable, I am sure you'll agree.

It is regrettable. I agree. But do you have a better way of fast tracking a group of people subjugated for over two thousand years?

 

[BATMAN]

India can also stop transit of air planes of Pakistan going east-wards. It works both ways. Right now Pakistan doesn't give any road access from India to Afghanistan. India gets its stuff through Iran (shipping) and other bordering countries of Afghanistan. So, Pakistan cannot do anything about it.

There cannot be any thing more dear than security of Pakistan!
So now tell us what eastward route Pakistani flihgts are operating?
How do you reach to iran? through Pakistani waters!!!!
I also believe you had to declare to iran what you are shipping... while Pakistan had given you uncensord route...
As i know since 1st october 2007 indian trucks are passing through Pakistan but covertly. when media is not looking or is fed wel enough.

Pakistani markets are flooded with tax free indian goods officialy patronised by govt. of Pakistan.

Indo-Pak trade through Wagah border picking up

Notwithstanding the slowdown, the bilateral trade between India [ Images ] and Pakistan through the Wagah border registered almost two-fold rise during the April-October 2009 period as compared to the corresponding period last year. The data provided by Customs reveals that on an average 20-30 trucks cross Wagah every day.

According to the data, during the April-October 2009 period, the total value of exports to Pakistan through the border was Rs 299.14 crore (Rs 2.99 billion) while during the corresponding period last year it was Rs 105.71 crore (Rs 1.06 billion).

Thus exports to Pakistan witnessed more than two-fold increase in the first seven months of the current financial year. At present India is exporting soya extracts, green chillies and potatoes.

Earlier, it has exported tomato, raw cotton. However, the trade between the two countries registered marginal increase in terms of imports. India imported goods worth Rs 182.48 crore (Rs 1.82 billion) during the period April-October 2009, while the total value of imports during the corresponding period last year was Rs 179.28 crore (Rs 1.79 billion).

Overall the total value of exports during the financial year 2008-09 was Rs 435.34 crore (Rs 4.35 billion) while the value of imports was Rs 421.19 crore (Rs 4.21 billion).

Exporters are of the view that the Indo-Pak trade has got shot in the arm with the commencement of cross-border movement of trucks along the Attari border, Amritsar [ Images ] (Punjab [ Images ]).

It is worth noting that Indian truck laden with tomato consignment crossed Attari border (Indian side) into Pakistan to mark the beginning of truck movement into each others' territory on October 1, 2007.

This historic day was not only milestone in Indo-Pak bilateral relations over the past 60 years but also in the world history as the entire global focus was likely to be on the Indian subcontinent in the years to come.

Earlier, the goods were exported by porters by exchanging their loads on Radcliff line (border). As per the data, on an average 30 trucks per day cross the Wagah border in comparison to 10-15 truck per day earlier when the porters used to carry the export and import items.

Last year, trade between the two countries was affected due to the slowdown. Experts believe the trade with these two countries will further achieve a new milestone, once the state-of-the art Integrated Check Post (ICP) is in place.

To further give fillip to the trade, the government has proposed to set up ICP which will be spread over 120 acres besides four laning of the Attari road.

Earlier, Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal also expressed confidence that with the opening of the Attari border for trade, there would be a spurt in the economic activities between the Indian and Pakistan Punjab, resulting in huge revenue and employment generation. He said there was a tremendous scope of increasing the trade from the few designated items which had been permitted for trade through trucks would be increased many fold including sport goods, light engineering hand tool, machine tools, hosiery and processed food products from Punjab and fine staples cotton would be imported from Pakistan which has assured demand in the Indian market.
Vijay C Roy in New Delhi

 

[muse]

Vinod

Please don't behave in a petulant manner - you brought the issues in the original discussion, and now you want to pout -- I not having it -

It is regrettable. I agree. But do you have a better way of fast tracking a group of people subjugated for over two thousand years?

First, You agreeing that the Indian government promotes caste system. Second, "fast tracking" is simply not required, all are equal or they are not.

Getting back to the issue of Indian consulates on the Pakistani border - what is their purpose? Are there large numbers of Indians crossing the Pakistani border with Afghanistan?