Kaveri NG Engine : Developmental Gas Turbine Engines upto 130 kN thrust class at GTRE, Bangalore

[Aero]

While rest of the world follow same track if first prototype fails they make changes if again dump it for complete new project why DRDO / HAL keep renewing their old failed projects again and again.

It is almost new in a way as specifications are different however DRDO can utilize previous experience & with Safran 's help we will definitely succeed.
You cannot say it as "Again" as from previous projects DRDO learned a lot.

 

[Nilgiri]

Image filters,duh, i thought they used something ,that i am completely aware of ,on aircraft structure, Silly me.
Thanks

Yah im talking about post-processing. Though @PARIKRAMA has put out in the post earlier what can be done actively on the aircraft itself in brief to reduce IR signature....which was a good refresher for me I have to say.

 

[Aero]

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The problem is everything comes out in public domain about IR suppression and FLIR images or even other thermal signature reduction comparative analysis of X vs Y , it ends up being part of a marketing campaign and then a propaganda warfare in online forum ..

Fact remains most of the techniques out in public domain must be legacy things or from theory aspect and new latest ones wont be known only. Unless folks like @Nilgiri leaks out the engine /fuselage cooling part IR reduction at least and tomorrow he gets a black suited person at his door step pressing his calling bell with an ID card showing something with a bald eagle....

I have tried hard in last 3 years to find a descent FLIR image of Rafale and till now i have not been able to get anything which can give me a proper understanding of Rafale signature in the main body. Perhaps i wont find also chiefly bcz Dassault Marketing folks dont publish such things at all.

If it was Saab perhaps yes we might have seen more PPTs and studies showcasing this aspect long long ago..

 

[Nilgiri]

Unless folks like @Nilgiri leaks out the engine /fuselage cooling part IR reduction at least and tomorrow he gets a black suited person at his door step pressing his calling bell with an ID card showing something with a bald eagle....

LOL! I never did anything active related in IR suppression....just enhancement for a thermal report regarding engine flow dynamics. Honest!

I have tried hard in last 3 years to find a descent FLIR image of Rafale and till now i have not been able to get anything which can give me a proper understanding of Rafale signature in the main body. Perhaps i wont find also chiefly bcz Dassault Marketing folks dont publish such things at all.

Bang on the button. Its why IAF tests all MMRCA contenders thoroughly....and Dassault would have a no-leak clause in the agreement they signed with India. Such stuff cannot be taken at face value.

 

[GORKHALI]

What have you got to say about weight- I presume Its the dry weight- 2170 kg

With 130 kN full thrust- T/W is 6.1
With 90 kN dry thrust- T/W is 4.2

As per current specifications Kaveri with dry weight of 1235 kg

With 52 kN dry thrust- T/W is 4.3
With 80 kN dry thrust- T/W is 6.6

Kaveri in present form seems to be a better performing engine when It comes to T/W ratio in comparison with this so called next Gen- Kaveri-

Another wastage of Public money I see here- unless there is some misprinting about the weight-

That's is my point.Why these fools want to waste public money ? Even if they come up with engine.
These people will again start working to reduce the dry weight and this vicious cycle will go on and on.

 

[halupridol]

That's is my point.Why these fools want to waste public money ? Even if they come up with engine.
These people will again start working to reduce the dry weight and this vicious cycle will go on and on.

yahi toh inka dana pani hai bhai,,,,ab iss "project" se inki dukan agle 25-30 saal chalegi.

 

[GuardianRED]

@PARIKRAMA

Congratulations.

Now, the thing is, I need a couple of miracles....

LOL... just came to the same thought - that is too much of a coincidence that Safran is opening shop which the Rafale deal is being negotiated !

 

[zebra7]

That's is my point.Why these fools want to waste public money ? Even if they come up with engine.
These people will again start working to reduce the dry weight and this vicious cycle will go on and on.

Dear Sir, Wt. Reduction is a common practice in the development of this type of complex system.

1. Tell me how much money is needed to develop a 85KN turbofan engine like M88 -- 8 Billion with decades of experience under the belt of Safran, and how much GTRE waisted ????

2. Before criticizing the GTRE did you realized, that the actual initial target have been attained, and its only the revised requirement of the LCA, where it lags.

3. Did you realized that the Kaveri is a Flat Rated Engine, aka which is designed to perform in hot arid and cold environment of India, due to which though when compare to RD-93 engine it is inferior on Paper but actually on the similar condition in india, the difference in performance is marginal. e.g TWR of RD-93 is 7 and Kaveri is 6.5 (This is achieved value), and are you sure that the RD-93 engine would be able to deliver above 7 TWR ratio in Indian condition with dust and at temp 55 degree celcius.

4. Did you realizes, that where we are lagging is the material science aka the SCB single crystal Blade for the turbine, which could sustain the temp of 1700 degree as compare to 1400 degree, and special thermal barrier coating.

5. Did you realizes that, Kaveri was hampered with the Vibration issues, which could disintegrade the parts of the Brisk, and GTRE tries for 5 years to elliminate it, but only when they took the Kaveri test bed to the Russia, that they found out that it has the problem of the vibration of the 3rd order and after 2 stages of the Compressor stages, the third and the rest stages was as dead as the Babus of our system. The test facility in India, could have saved so many years and crutial time and money. Whom do you blame this for ??

6. Did you know, that after sucessful aerial test in Russia, the GTRE have to wait for 3 years when money was released for the further work.


Baki Lage Raho Critisize karne me.

 

[GORKHALI]

Dear Sir, Wt. Reduction is a common practice in the development of this type of complex system.

1. Tell me how much money is needed to develop a 85KN turbofan engine like M88 -- 8 Billion with decades of experience under the belt of Safran, and how much GTRE waisted ????

2. Before criticizing the GTRE did you realized, that the actual initial target have been attained, and its only the revised requirement of the LCA, where it lags.

3. Did you realized that the Kaveri is a Flat Rated Engine, aka which is designed to perform in hot arid and cold environment of India, due to which though when compare to RD-93 engine it is inferior on Paper but actually on the similar condition in india, the difference in performance is marginal. e.g TWR of RD-93 is 7 and Kaveri is 6.5 (This is achieved value), and are you sure that the RD-93 engine would be able to deliver above 7 TWR ratio in Indian condition with dust and at temp 55 degree celcius.

4. Did you realizes, that where we are lagging is the material science aka the SCB single crystal Blade for the turbine, which could sustain the temp of 1700 degree as compare to 1400 degree, and special thermal barrier coating.

5. Did you realizes that, Kaveri was hampered with the Vibration issues, which could disintegrade the parts of the Brisk, and GTRE tries for 5 years to elliminate it, but only when they took the Kaveri test bed to the Russia, that they found out that it has the problem of the vibration of the 3rd order and after 2 stages of the Compressor stages, the third and the rest stages was as dead as the Babus of our system. The test facility in India, could have saved so many years and crutial time and money. Whom do you blame this for ??

6. Did you know, that after sucessful aerial test in Russia, the GTRE have to wait for 3 years when money was released for the further work.


Baki Lage Raho Critisize karne me.

First of all..Don't just fire at me by saying 'did you know' this and that.I know what is this and that even before you joined this forum or anyother .
Coming to point 2 - GTRE are just a Job security office of DRDO.
Since inception of GTRE ,they came up with a turbocharger,air turbine charger and everything else is in development mode since then.
So don't just get charged up and accept the failures too of DRDO.

 

[zebra7]

First of all..Don't just fire at me by saying 'did you know' this and that.I know what is this and that even before you joined this forum or anyother .
Coming to point 2 - GTRE are just a Job security office of DRDO.
Since inception of GTRE ,they came up with a turbocharger,air turbine charger and everything else is in development mode since then.
So don't just get charged up and accept the failures too of DRDO.

OK, I will not fire upon you but I pointed out where we are lacking which is the material science, and its the DMRL which as a pilot project is developing the critical metallurgical composition, which is also an Indian PSU, but point is there any other source, other OEM, or country, which is going to give this to us, or We have to develop it on our own. And one question, why we have only few OEMs in the world 2 American Pratt n whitney, GE, 2 Russian, 3 European and now japanese and Chinese to some extend is able to build turbo fan engine of its own, and they all are not gonna share their secret to any one, because thats what they are earning.

 

[Ali Zadi]

Thank's for the tag @PARIKRAMA but i did not get the alert weird.

Anyways the high weight and W2T being similar to the M88 core Kaveri is related to the dependability/ Maintenance of the engine. The Kaveri had in-flight time lower than not only western engines but also to some others.

The new engine has MTBF angle and no doubt usage of materials that are more accessible here. Don't forget that some old engines from 60-70's also had high trust specs with high MTBF values.

 

[Nilgiri]

Thank's for the tag @PARIKRAMA but i did not get the alert weird.

It's happening a lot these days I am afraid.

@PARIKRAMA if its a real important topic that you feel may merit a comment from me, would appreciate if you could tag me separately and solely somewhere down the conversation just in case I did not get the first tag. Thanks!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why would we want GE 414 when we can get all this done with investment of time and money by ourselves.. and now Safran investing makes that also taken care of .. Does it not showcase the game changer tipping point..

Why would you start this project unless the earlier one will soon roll out and go for the actual deployment? Unless that has been evaluated by someone like Safran and this point of Kaveri NG becomes their binding promise for Rafale MII orders

The peices are coming together.......

And still some will try and convince us the F-16/18/Gripen/EFT has a chance in India.

The game being played extends far beyond a single fighter type but extends to the entire Indian MIC.

BS ......These guys just know how to develop a money making jet engine which stays only on ground.First of all we need to trim down GTRE and handover engine production to pvt sector.
Coming to those specs :A 2170 kg dry weight for 130 KN thrust,please go ahead and power an auto rick.

Bro, GRTE/DRDO are NOT a produciton agency, they actually outsource much of their production (and increasingly so) to the private sector. There is NO ONE else in India that is within 20 years of the DRDO in most of their scientific efforts, let alone any private sector entity. The private sector are not some silver bullet, they have their uses but they will never be the at the cutting edge of the most R&D intensive projects. Even in the US DARPA is a 100% govt agency that is responsible for the most high-tech strategic military systems.


And DRDO is not a single entity but a collection of >60 labs/units spread out across India it has its successes and failures but one success/failure cannot be used as a predictor of the DRDO's success going foreward- it simply does not work this way and the DRDO is showcasing how it can deliver with the right direction and resources these days.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Dear Sir, Wt. Reduction is a common practice in the development of this type of complex system.

1. Tell me how much money is needed to develop a 85KN turbofan engine like M88 -- 8 Billion with decades of experience under the belt of Safran, and how much GTRE waisted ????

2. Before criticizing the GTRE did you realized, that the actual initial target have been attained, and its only the revised requirement of the LCA, where it lags.

3. Did you realized that the Kaveri is a Flat Rated Engine, aka which is designed to perform in hot arid and cold environment of India, due to which though when compare to RD-93 engine it is inferior on Paper but actually on the similar condition in india, the difference in performance is marginal. e.g TWR of RD-93 is 7 and Kaveri is 6.5 (This is achieved value), and are you sure that the RD-93 engine would be able to deliver above 7 TWR ratio in Indian condition with dust and at temp 55 degree celcius.

4. Did you realizes, that where we are lagging is the material science aka the SCB single crystal Blade for the turbine, which could sustain the temp of 1700 degree as compare to 1400 degree, and special thermal barrier coating.

5. Did you realizes that, Kaveri was hampered with the Vibration issues, which could disintegrade the parts of the Brisk, and GTRE tries for 5 years to elliminate it, but only when they took the Kaveri test bed to the Russia, that they found out that it has the problem of the vibration of the 3rd order and after 2 stages of the Compressor stages, the third and the rest stages was as dead as the Babus of our system. The test facility in India, could have saved so many years and crutial time and money. Whom do you blame this for ??

6. Did you know, that after sucessful aerial test in Russia, the GTRE have to wait for 3 years when money was released for the further work.


Baki Lage Raho Critisize karne me.

First of all this is not about engine program but engine testing facility. ! For today and future requirements