Kashmiri's To Launch New Revolution If Talks Fail, Yasin Malik back to fighting talk

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As far as his hope for a secular kashmir are concerned, there is absolutely no way Kashmir is going to be a secular region unless its under Indian control.

Even a country like Pakistan, with its colonial history and British educated upper-class couldn't remain secular in the face of Islamic forces.

kashmir doesn't stand a chance.

That is only the business of the Kashmiris, and your comment is nothing but speculation. You cannot predict what the direction of the State would be.

Salim has often said that the brand of Islam in Kashmir has left it immune to influence fro the more extremist form of Islam some groups have tried to spread.

I would take that to imply then that Yasin's vision has a perfectly reasonable chance of success.

 

[Flintlock]

^^^Gimme a break. The Saddam regime was killing Kurds en-masse with poison gas and whatnot.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^Gimme a break. The Saddam regime was killing Kurds en-masse with poison gas and whatnot.

A difference in degree and method.

Deliberately Killing unarmed civilians is still deliberately killing unarmed civilians.

But lets move off of this. I think the only reason this was brought up was to point out that there is no set definition of "terrorist". The UN gives the right to an occupied people to fight for their freedom.

Back to the implications of his new position.

 

[Flintlock]

That is only the business of the Kashmiris, and your comment is nothing but speculation. You cannot predict what the direction of the State would be.

Nobody can be 100% sure, but yeah, an informed prediction says that its not possible

Salim has often said that the brand of Islam in Kashmir has left it immune to influence fro the more extremist form of Islam some groups have tried to spread.

Tell me, are the majority of Pakistanis extremists? That didn't prevent the extremist ideolgies from flourishing inside the country and spreading to other parts of the world.

Kashmir "freedom struggle" has got support from all the Islamic extremist groups in the world. There has been a constant stream of fighters from all over including Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Central Asia.
There are a number of terror groups operating in the valley itself which want an orthodox islamic state.

Name one Islamic nation in the Middle East-Mainland Asia region which is secular democracy.

Bangladesh? hardly. Whatever secularism is left is being steadily eroded by the mushrooming madarassas and terror networks.
Pakistan? Nopes
Afghanistan? Yeah rite
IRan?
Iraq?
Lebanon? Hezbollah is taking over
Egypt? Teetering on the brink

Turkey? they had to ban anything and everything remotely related to Islam in order to prevent the Islamists from taking over.

You do know right, how the mujahideen flooded into the valley in 1947?

The odds of Kashmir emerging as a secular nation are as slim as the odds of Afghanistan becoming a democracy.

In the valley, there are constant diktats from militants ordering women from wearing burkhas, men to grow beards and prevent girls from attending colleges.

Even if Yasin Malik manages to obtain some sort of an autonomous Kashmir valley, his capital will be taken over by jehadis in the blink of an eye.

Why do you think the EU is siding with India? For these exact same reasons.

Your sentiments might convince you that a secular Kashmir is viable and possible, but the reality is quite, quite different.

The only force that is preventing the Islamist takeover in kashmir is the Indian Army.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Tell me, are the majority of Pakistanis extremists? That didn't prevent the extremist ideolgies from flourishing inside the country and spreading to other parts of the world.

Good point!

It isn't even the fact that extremist brands of Islam have wides support, but that State institutions collapse and extremists step into the power vacuum, as you see in FATA and Afghanistan especially.

Name one Islamic nation in the Middle East-Mainland Asia region which is secular democracy.

You do know right, how the mujahideen flooded into the valley in 1947?

Again - an unnatural situation of a territory under occupation. Events like that do not provide a proper picture of what would happen if the people of Kashmir were to be in charge of their own destiny.

I would argue that within Pakistan it is the lack of continuity of a representative process that allows society to evolve that has allowed some obscurantist ideas to persist.

Remember that the most discriminatory and intolerant parts of the Pakistani constitution were introduced by a Islamist dictator.

So the question is about what can be done to strengthen institutions in Kashmir, to ensure that the rule of law prevails, rather than speculate based on examples of States with dysfunctional governments.

And even if it turns out to not be the case, it is still the Kashmiris whose destiny it is, is they who must be in charge.

 

[Flintlock]

Good point!

It isn't even the fact that extremist brands of Islam have wides support, but that State institutions collapse and extremists step into the power vacuum, as you see in FATA and Afghanistan especially.

Again - an unnatural situation of a territory under occupation. Events like that do not provide a proper picture of what would happen if the people of Kashmir were to be in charge of their own destiny.

Infact if a territory is perceived to be under occupation, the response that comes out can definitely can provide a great picture of what sort of ideologies are thriving in the region.

I would argue that within Pakistan it is the lack of continuity of a representative process that allows society to evolve that has allowed some obscurantist ideas to persist.

Remember that the most discriminatory and intolerant parts of the Pakistani constitution were introduced by a Islamist dictator.

That was then, and this is now. In the 'brave new world', islamism spreads at the speed of the internet.
it doesn't need a dictator to enforce.

So the question is about what can be done to strengthen institutions in Kashmir, to ensure that the rule of law prevails, rather than speculate based on examples of States with dysfunctional governments.

And even if it turns out to not be the case, it is still the Kashmiris whose destiny it is, is they who must be in charge.

I'll tell you want can be done. The jehadis can be stopped from entering and mucking things up, and the kashmiris can be given some secular education and decent jobs.

The way things are going in the valley now, it will turn into an extremist hub the moment any of the pressure is lifted.

You think that the legions of Jehadi groups who have declared neverending war on India are going to stop at just Kashmir?

Also, its not just the destiny of kashmiris. Its the destiny of the whole of J&K, including Ladakh and Jammu, of which the valley makes up just small part.
Its also the destiny of the whole of the Central Asian region, who would suffer greatly if a terrorist recruitment ground is created bang in the middle of Asia.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Infact if a territory is perceived to be under occupation, the response that comes out can definitely can provide a great picture of what sort of ideologies are thriving in the region.

Not at all.

It is a completely different situation from normal life.

That was then, and this is now. In the 'brave new world', islamism spreads at the speed of the internet.
it doesn't need a dictator to enforce.

It does need a breakdown of institutions to spread, and it has never spread to a majority, but rather allowed an extremist minority to control the majority through fear.

So what needs addressing is the institutions that will prevent this.

I'll tell you want can be done. The jehadis can be stopped from entering and mucking things up, and the kashmiris can be given some secular education and decent jobs.

The way things are going in the valley now, it will turn into an extremist hub the moment any of the pressure is lifted.

You think that the legions of Jehadi groups who have declared neverending war on India are going to stop at just Kashmir?

Also, its not just the destiny of kashmiris. Its the destiny of the whole of J&K, including Ladakh and Jammu, of which the valley makes up just small part.
Its also the destiny of the whole of the Central Asian region, who would suffer greatly if a terrorist recruitment ground is created bang in the middle of Asia.

All the concerns mentioned, disarming, return of non-native fighters, "J&K or just K", are all issues that can be broached during negotiations, and obviously the success of any plan depends upon those factors being addressed to the satisfaction of all parties concerned.

 

[Flintlock]

Not at all.

It is a completely different situation from normal life.

Fine, I'm not interested in arguing this point.

It does need a breakdown of institutions to spread, and it has never spread to a majority, but rather allowed an extremist minority to control the majority through fear.

So what needs addressing is the institutions that will prevent this.

How about we prove that it is possible by creating a secular democracy in one of the already existing muslim majority countries, before experimenting with one in an unstable conflict zone?

India is already doing exactly that - building democratic institutions, which is acknowledged by the democratic world. The last thing we need is to put those efforts back by a century by creating a tiny state unable to defend itself from either invaders or fundamentalist takeovers.

All the concerns mentioned, disarming, return of non-native fighters, "J&K or just K", are all issues that can be broached during negotiations, and obviously the success of any plan depends upon those factors being addressed to the satisfaction of all parties concerned.

And you think that the people who intend to do the real damage will be part of these negotiations? or infact capable of keeping up their end of the deal?

We've seen how the Taliban negotiates, and I suspect we've seen enough.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Launch away!

 

[vish]

East Pakistan.

What other choice we had that time? The refugee crisis was increasingly getting intense and had we not acted our eastern regions were under threat of demographic destabilization.

Since Kashmir is disputed territory, Pakistan's attempts to get India to offer the right of plebiscite as demanded in UNSC resolutions and the Instrument of accession, would not be interference in India's affairs. Kashmir is not a part of India or Pakistan at this point.

I don't agree to the notion that J&K is a disputed territory.

I've already stated earlier that neither India nor Pakistan and nor China have taken the pre-requisite steps to conduct the "elections." All the three have just been passing the buck.

The Indian side of J&K is a part of India.

I am not sure IA shoudl be compared to Iran's Republican Guard. The Iraqi Army against the Kurds and Shia under Saddam perhaps.

So you are suggesting that the IA had pre-determined to commit murder and mayhem in J&K? That the IA's top brass had "human rights violations" and "genocide" as some of their "objectives?"

I've never denied, and nor has the IA, the human rights violations committed by some sections of the IA in J&K.

However, what you're suggesting is really absurd.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Agnostic,

The brand of Kashmiri Islam is Sufism and interestingly many visit Hindu shrines as Hindus visit the Islamic shires of Sufi Pirs.

However, Kashmir is now flushed with money from illegal sources, mostly terrorist money.

And money speaks.

One has to see the changing skyline of Srinagar and other places.

Just visit Gilani's house. It is a mansion and yet he is a mere school teacher.

It is interesting that terrorism has become big business and a better paying pursuit that any classical occupation. Thus, the lure is there for those with a little less of a chicken heart!

 

[dabong1]

SO you disagree with Yasin Malik here?.

Yes

An Islamic Independent Kashmir is not going to happen either. Everyone is against it: China, Russia, EU, USA...all the world powers are against it. It will create tremendous instability in the region and become a fertile recruiting-ground for Islamic insurgents to create problems all over Asia.?.

I will send a message to all the freedom fighters in kashmir to drop there weapons becauce the world powers are not with you.
Do you think we really care what the world thinks..?.....the same world has not helped us, so why should we care about there opinions.

Unless of course, the Armies of Islam can pull off a shocker, and drive out the IA.

What like the "shocker" the Armies of Islam pulled of in afghanistan.

 

[dabong1]

dabong, do you think the Hindus of Jammu will willingly agree to live in an Islamic state?.

Yes...if muslims can live in a hindu state why cant hindus live in a islamic state.
And dont go on about being secular.....your only secular in name.

Obviously not. Hence my prediction of a massive civil war.

Thats you prejudice coming through.

 

[dabong1]

nah. they are too busy dying in their own homelands. besides, indian army was in kashmir since '89. the chechens, iraqis and afghans didnt give a f*** about kashmir then. why should they bother now, especially since they are embroiled in their own wars? .

Strange....one minute your convinced its foreign militants doing all the attacks in kashmir and now when it suits you the foreign militants "are too busy dying in their own homelands".

Do make your mind up.

bottom line-your fundamentalist dreams wont come true. .

My dream for a kashmir merged into pakistan will come true one day......jihad for peace

no its when pakistan sponsored jihadis started crossing the border and attacking india when the troubles started.

Flip flop again........are brother mujahdeen from other muslim countries coming into kashmir to help the kashmir's in there fight for freedom?
One minute there not and now they are........make your mind up.

 

[Flintlock]

What like the "shocker" the Armies of Islam pulled of in afghanistan.

What Afghanistan?

All I see are a bunch of conquered people, living off crumbs and drugs, being bombed 24 hours a day, and dying of diseases.
Their lands bereft of any vegetation, having been denuded a long time ago.
Their capital taken over by Americans and Jews.

If this is the great Islamic victory, then its not much to celebrate.