Kashmiris concerned by plans for Hindu satellite cities

[scorpionx]

Than you should not repent now. Nothing is permanent. Article 370 has done nothing good for Kashmiris and only helped them to isolate and poor. It is the time to rethink now. Our government is doing that only.

The accusation from Sangh and the right wing nationalist blocs about article 370, as it stands in the way of national integrity and has acted as a catalyst to isolate the Kashmiris from the rest of the country is factually incorrect. From its birth itself article 370, as well as the assurance for the state’s autonomy crippled with abuse of the very law itself.

When drafting of the state constitution was complete and constituent assembly was dissolved in 1957, the power that enabled the president to pass orders in regard to the matters other than those mentioned in the Instrument of Accession also ended. But during 1954 to 1986, 42 presidential orders had been passed without concurrence or ratification of the “now dissolved” constituent assembly. Number of presidential orders like restricting the state legislature and giving more power to the Union legislature, regarding administrative services, provisions regarding Judiciary, emergency etc were invariable passed in these years. This was a simple and plain violation of the article 370 which is being condemned for its secessionist nature.

In case of Punjab, where four constitutional amendments were carried out by the parliament to extend the presidential rule, just executive orders were needed to impose president rule in Kashmir with its article 370 in its hand. The presidential order to extend article 249 to the state of J & K just required Rajya Sabha resolution and concurrence of the Governor of Kashmir and here the ratification of the state legislature were not at all felt necessary.

So, history has proven that rules can be made and imposed by the Union of India on J & K without much respecting the article 370 and its various sections. Naturally then, it absurd to blame this article for the impoverishment or isolation of Kashmir from the rest. Jammu & Kashmir might have thousand reasons for its precariousness but article 370 is not definitely one of those as it is being proclaimed by the rightist groups. At least, facts do not suggest so.

 

[Joe Shearer]

" It’s true that the constituent Assembly which framed the Jammu & Kashmir Constitution ceased to exist after January 26, 1957, when the State Constitution so framed and adopted was enforced. But it’s also a fact that the State Government amended the Constitution more than 30 times between 1959 and till date, invoking section 167 of the State constitution. Section 167 also says that Jammu & Kashmir Government cannot amend section 3 of the Constitution and recognises the authority of the Indian Parliament to legislate on all matters, except those which deal with the executive and legislative power of the State. Jammu & Kashmir doesn’t have a constituent Assembly. Constituent Assembly is not a permanent institution. It ceases to exist after it frames and adopts the Constitution so framed. And after it ceases to exist, the power to amend the Constitution lies with the Legislature."
"Article 370 is part of the Indian Constitution and the Parliament being the highest legislative body in the country has the power to amend it. Using Article 368, it can amend or repeal any of the provisions of Indian Constitution. Even the President of India can amend or abrogate Article 370. The only condition is that the Union Cabinet has to send a proposal to this effect to him. It is important to note that the President of India can keep Jammu & Kashmir under his direct rule for any number of years by invoking Article 370, as it gives absolute executive powers to the constitutional head. Take for example, the Governor/President rule in the State between January 19, 1990 and October 9, 1996. Jammu & Kashmir was under the President rule for almost seven years without amending the Indian Constitution even once because Article 356 is not applicable to this State. The case of Jammu & Kashmir was not taken to the Parliament even once during this period"

Can this be the way out ?

Anybody who has studied the situation knows that not only is this the way out, we are already out.

" It’s true that the constituent Assembly which framed the Jammu & Kashmir Constitution ceased to exist after January 26, 1957, when the State Constitution so framed and adopted was enforced. But it’s also a fact that the State Government amended the Constitution more than 30 times between 1959 and till date, invoking section 167 of the State constitution. Section 167 also says that Jammu & Kashmir Government cannot amend section 3 of the Constitution and recognises the authority of the Indian Parliament to legislate on all matters, except those which deal with the executive and legislative power of the State. Jammu & Kashmir doesn’t have a constituent Assembly. Constituent Assembly is not a permanent institution. It ceases to exist after it frames and adopts the Constitution so framed. And after it ceases to exist, the power to amend the Constitution lies with the Legislature."
"Article 370 is part of the Indian Constitution and the Parliament being the highest legislative body in the country has the power to amend it. Using Article 368, it can amend or repeal any of the provisions of Indian Constitution. Even the President of India can amend or abrogate Article 370. The only condition is that the Union Cabinet has to send a proposal to this effect to him. It is important to note that the President of India can keep Jammu & Kashmir under his direct rule for any number of years by invoking Article 370, as it gives absolute executive powers to the constitutional head. Take for example, the Governor/President rule in the State between January 19, 1990 and October 9, 1996. Jammu & Kashmir was under the President rule for almost seven years without amending the Indian Constitution even once because Article 356 is not applicable to this State. The case of Jammu & Kashmir was not taken to the Parliament even once during this period"

Can this be the way out ?

Brilliant analysis. Right on target.

not mine quoted from an article.

That doesn't matter. You had the good sense to spot it as important and to bring it to the notice of other members. Well done, Sir.

 

[HariPrasad]

The accusation from Sangh and the right wing nationalist blocs about article 370, as it stands in the way of national integrity and has acted as a catalyst to isolate the Kashmiris from the rest of the country is factually incorrect. From its birth itself article 370, as well as the assurance for the state’s autonomy crippled with abuse of the very law itself.
When drafting of the state constitution was complete and constituent assembly was dissolved in 1957, the power that enabled the president to pass orders in regard to the matters other than those mentioned in the Instrument of Accession also ended. But during 1954 to 1986, 42 presidential orders had been passed without concurrence or ratification of the “now dissolved” constituent assembly. Number of presidential orders like restricting the state legislature and giving more power to the Union legislature, regarding administrative services, provisions regarding Judiciary, emergency etc were invariable passed in these years. This was a simple and plain violation of the article 370 which is being condemned for its secessionist nature.
In case of Punjab, where four constitutional amendments were carried out by the parliament to extend the presidential rule, just executive orders were needed to impose president rule in Kashmir with its article 370 in its hand. The presidential order to extend article 249 to the state of J & K just required Rajya Sabha resolution and concurrence of the Governor of Kashmir and here the ratification of the legislature were not at all felt necessary.
So, history has proven that rules can be made and imposed by the Union of India on J & K without much respecting the article 370 and its various sections. And I feel it absurd to blame this article for the impoverishment or isolation of Kashmir from the rest. Jammu & Kashmir might have thousand reasons for its precariousness but article 370 is not definitely one of those as it is being proclaimed by the rightist groups. At least, facts do not suggest so.

See, When this article was incorporated, Naheru himself had said that it will slowly erode and vanish with time.

I do not have much knowledge of constitution and provision of various sections, but it is very much clear that this article is a big impediment in the way of J & K. When whole country is in race of inviting Investment from India and abroad, this article prevents that. I as a citizen of India feel that my right to freely move and reside anywhere in India is being curtailed by this article.

In addition to above, it has boosted separation in J & K. Mullahs and other fundamentalist element used it to push Pundeets out to grab their land and property and make valley a complete Muslim dominated place. Inspite of spending too much on J & K Compare to other states, india has failed to integrate this state with rest of India.

There is absolutely no reason to why any state should have special status after 67 years of independence. This article is also been seen as the tool to vote bank politics and appease a particular community. Nobody has dare to talk to rehabilitate Pundeets in valley till May 16th as that is also seen as anti secular. We can not be one nation with sheety article such as article 370. That must be removed as early as possible.

 

[scorpionx]

See, When this article was incorporated, Naheru himself had said that it will slowly erode and vanish with time.

I do not have much knowledge of constitution and provision of various sections, but it is very much clear that this article is a big impediment in the way of J & K. When whole country is in race of inviting Investment from India and abroad, this article prevents that. I as a citizen of India feel that my right to freely move and reside anywhere in India is being curtailed by this article.

In addition to above, it has boosted separation in J & K. Mullahs and other fundamentalist element used it to push Pundeets out to grab their land and property and make valley a complete Muslim dominated place. Inspite of spending too much on J & K Compare to other states, india has failed to integrate this state with rest of India.

There is absolutely no reason to why any state should have special status after 67 years of independence. This article is also been seen as the tool to vote bank politics and appease a particular community. Nobody has dare to talk to rehabilitate Pundeets in valley till May 16th as that is also seen as anti secular. We can not be one nation with sheety article such as article 370. That must be removed as early as possible.

While I agree that, no state in this country should enjoy a special status today and this spirit of equality should be spread to the sphere of individual rights and liberty also, I do not agree with the red part above. Perhaps we are passing through one of the darkest phases of Indian political history right now. When TMC ministers are suggesting their followers to rape and murder the opponents, SP minister finds no fault in boys who rape, our right wing patriots are busy in searching for an unified theme of nationalism in abolishing article 370 and in Goanese skirts like their confused predecessors. So let us agree to disagree here and enjoy the show going on.

 

[HariPrasad]

There can not be any arguement against the example you quoted of Trinmul MP and SP but I do do not see any stuff in your argument favoring Article 370. Any how let us agree to disagree as you have suggested.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe Shearer said: ↑
As you have already pointed out, involving a Pakistani forum and a Pakistani thread in this meaningless controversy has nothing to do with action. That is the way in which several people vindicate themselves: not through a legitimate purpose, such as the exploration of the relations between nations and societies in south Asia, and the possible ways in which to deal together usefully in future, but in expressing their penup feelings of bravado and their jingoism. There is no positive intention involved here, only egregious selfexpression. Some of us - I am one - engage with these juveniles in order to educate and elevate our own internet equivalent of trailer trash, some others, you might be an example, engage with them in the utterly mistaken belief that you are corresponding with persons with open minds or, as an alternative, a willingness to experiment. Neither is true in the bulk of the cases that we encounter. A studied disdain, and relentless insistence on fact and reason is what is recommended for you. For us, who have chosen to suffer the trauma of educating those who do not wish to be educated, the path is different.

QED.

 

[Yeti]

I will believe it when they are setup and Pandits move into the cities until then i hold my judgement!

It seem India is going to follow footsteps of Israel.

No because the Pandits are Kashmiris and thus returning to the land of their forefathers

 

[Tshering22]

I will believe it when they are setup and Pandits move into the cities until then i hold my judgement!




No because the Pandits are Kashmiris and thus returning to their land of their forefathers

He says this because any non-muslim is outsider according to him.

 

[Yeti]

He says this because any non-muslim is outsider according to him.

Yes we know having Dharmic religions in Kashmir hurts them but there is no mention of Kashmir in any Abrahamic religious texts be it the Quran or Bible unlike the Vedas and Buddhist holy books so the land is holy for our people. The Kashmiri Sufis and the Pandits still go to many of the same shrines and offer their respects but it is the wahabi sickening cult which wishes to destroy this social cohesion but they will never win.

 

[bronxbull]

When the word logic occurs, I don't expect you to subscribe to the proposition that it describes. Neurosis is not rational.

u knw well,i dont post for popularity like you.

so,please.

Most south Indians irrespective of their religion marry within their relatives.

Muslims marry straight cousins,Hindus only marry cross cousins.

I am afraid the ambiguities over article 370 lie in its interpretation. The interpretation you have made from this article is based upon your assumption that this article is a direct impediment on the path to national integrity as it had been religiously preached by the Sangh and its paraphernalia for decades. Now please go through the background of this article, why it has to be brought up and how, in the following years of inclusion of this article, several consequent events that invalids the very reason to bring this article into effect.

Article 370, as you have stated in your previous posts is not related to migration at all. It is a promise to the people of Jammu and Kashmir for assured autonomy, not a direct law to prevent outside penetration. This law was to ensure that the points of Instrument of accession remains safeguarded which are to allow the state to have its own constitution, judiciary, legislature and executive. And Indian parliament cannot make any law for the state except the four areas. Only and only the president of India has been given power to pass his orders in “consultation with the legislative assembly.”

Now, the dissension of the right wingers over the article as anti-national is a mere ignorance about constitutional matters and its complexities. Our confused nationalists are unaware of the fact that Article 370 had been corroded gradually since its birth. The problem is not article 370. The controversies are about the state subject law as it was promulgated by Maharaja Hari Singh in the year 1927.

The Ghulam Kabra case in 1939, the case of Mahmood Ul Rehman, an IAS officer in the year 1973 are two distinct and quite extraordinarily convincing proofs that shows us that the State Subject law passed by Hari Singh or any law passed by the legislative assembly to prevent outside migration through marriage can be successfully challenged in the J & K high court itself. The 2004 disqualification bill in any way has to be scrapped and rolled in for its gender bias nature and the right wing attitude to see article 370 as secessionist and anti Indian is just hilarious and is profoundly absurd.

Lastly, I do not see it as a justifiable argument that Indians should change the demography of Kashmir just because Pakistanis are doing it. The J & K bill 2004 is unfair and at the same point of time, the hue and cry to penetrate the valley with uncontrolled migration is equally illogical and a threatening concept to put the democratic flavour of Indian constitution in danger. Hope I have made proper justice with the understanding of this article and it helps to clear the ambiguities.

Regards.

Even Switzerland has many immigrants,Kashmir is just a valley.

Nothing is sacrosanct in this world,everything has to go one day,including Article 370.

 

[bronxbull]

I seriously don't care about your personal views about India-Pak political relations. That is for the respective governments to work out. What really disgusts me is your highlighted post advocating genocide against Muslims. Reading inbetween your lines, you clearly are advocating genocide with your "appropriate policies" suggestion. The reason why I am disgusted is because you represent a privileged class of persons in India who speak practically fluent English and has access to a sizeble amount of time on the internet. And you still have the gall to advocate genocide in your country which is widely respected as a model of democracy and tolerance ? I seriously hope that you were simply trolling and not speaking your heart in that post

thats your sheer imagination that u think appropriate policies means violence/murder/genocide.

In my native place,arya samaj has reconverted so many muslims back to hinduism by shuddikaran.

so,i was strictly talking about that.

for people like you,writing an dreamy fancy constitution and doing nothing worthwhile in life is the sole ambition and perhaps defines a great life but not for everyone.

 

[Joe Shearer]

u knw well,i dont post for popularity like you.

so,please.

I post not for popularity, but to correct the stupid errors of some who come to post, and humiliate my country and me in front of strangers. This quest for the correction of errors is not always a successful quest, but it is hardly a question of posting for popularity. When you say that, when, indeed, you insinuate that, you reveal your inner hunger as nothing else could.

There was this truce in the fierce wars between Montenegrins and Turks, and two of them met in a remote mountain village.

"What do you fight for?" asked the Montenegrin.

"Honour, of course, what else?" said the Turk. "And you, what do you fight for?"

"Money," replied the Montenegrin. "It seems that we each fight for what we don't have."

u knw well,i dont post for popularity like you.

so,please.



Muslims marry straight cousins,Hindus only marry cross cousins.



Even Switzerland has many immigrants,Kashmir is just a valley.

Nothing is sacrosanct in this world,everything has to go one day,including Article 370.

As you are in such a renunciatory mood, you might as well advise us, "Nothing is sacrosanct in this world, everything has to go one day, including Kashmir." What logic! But then you don't believe in that false aid to discussion.

 

[Chronos]

I post not for popularity, but to correct the stupid errors of some who come to post, and humiliate my country and me in front of strangers. This quest for the correction of errors is not always a successful quest, but it is hardly a question of posting for popularity. When you say that, when, indeed, you insinuate that, you reveal your inner hunger as nothing else could.

There was this truce in the fierce wars between Montenegrins and Turks, and two of them met in a remote mountain village.

"What do you fight for?" asked the Montenegrin.

"Honour, of course, what else?" said the Turk. "And you, what do you fight for?"

"Money," replied the Montenegrin. "It seems that we each fight for what we don't have."




.

@Joe Shearer I do not mean to offend, but if you are trying to fire fight the damage caused by irresponsible statements by Indians, you are fighting a losing battle.

It's not just foreign policy, but social issues etc.

 

[Basel]

No because the Pandits are Kashmiris and thus returning to the land of their forefathers

Will India allow all of those who left India after partition to return to their forefathers land or at least provide them what they left??

 

[bronxbull]

Will India allow all of those who left India after partition to return to their forefathers land or at least provide them what they left??

no,only these guys will be allowed.