Kashmir - Think the Unthinkable

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Valley youths yearn for azaadi​

His mother tried to stop 17-year-old Muneeb Shaikh from joining the protest march to the United Nations Military Observers Group (UNMOG) office last Monday. Around 20 people had been killed in police firing across the Valley while participating in similar protests the previous week.

Muneeb symbolises a generation of Kashmiri youth who, while they may share the enthusiasm of their counterparts elsewhere for consumerist goodies and having a good time, are just as keen on azadi as well.Muneeb is a Class XI student at one of Srinagar’s best private schools. “Why should you worry? You have two sons. If one dies, the other will look after you,” he shot back.

“We were mentally prepared for his corpse to be brought home,” said his 53-year-old father Ghulam Shaikh, an employee with a local television channel. Fortunately this particular march remained peaceful and Muneeb got back unscathed.

Muneeb symbolises a generation of Kashmiri youth who, while they may share the enthusiasm of their counterparts elsewhere for consumerist goodies and having a good time, are just as keen on azadi as well. Born during the turbulent, militancy-ridden years of the late 1980s and 1990s, they display a passion for freedom that their parents, after the long years of bloodshed and bitterness in the state, have lost. “More than 90 per cent of the people taking part in these marches are below 25,” Ghulam Shaikh pointed out.

“They are born warriors,” said Mohammed Ishaq Wani, a local college lecturer, who has been observing young people closely for years.

At the forefront of the crowd at last Friday’s rally, following the prayers, were students of Srinagar’s Sri Pratap College. Some of them came zooming in on trendy motorbikes, but freedom from India remained their agenda. “They are our future. They will achieve what we could not,” said Ghulam Mohammad Dar, a 70-year-old shopkeeper Nawakadal watching them.

“This is a generation that has grown up amid the sounds of booming guns and exploding grenades,” said Dr Nazir Mushtaq, psychiatrist at Srinagar’s SMHS Hospital, explaining the young people’s fearlessness. “Lathi charges and exploding teargas shells are commonplace for them. They are not afraid of death.”

Valley youths yearn for <EM>azaadi</EM>- Hindustan Times

-------------------------------

Now this is definitely a positive dynamic, since the huge involvement of the youth indicates that the sentiment has thrived on its own, despite the 'attraction of consumerism', instead of being restricted to a generation that has memories of 1947.

 

[jaison]

Let us start with the basics. Repeal special autonomy under Article 370. Why on earth these ungratefuls be treated special? Treat them as bad as rest of India is treated but still yearn for Indian nation.

Withdraw the forces that are in the internal duties. Why innocent blood should be shed. Let the Kashmiri&#8217;s handle terrorist on own. Let the forces concentrate on the border.

Allow the trucks with apples got to Muzaffarabad. And no, don&#8217;t bother giving them protection. Let them go and find out how the prosperous Pakistani occupied Kashmir and so called Azad Kashmir are.

Why should Indian Army protect the Kashmiri women folk and earn the blame of rape? Let these women go to Muzaffarabad and get sold to the vice dens next earthquake.

Why should Indian Army kill these so called Kashmiri terrorists? It&#8217;s a waste. Let Muzaffarabad sell their organs and make some money next natural disaster.

Why should the Indian Army protect Kashmiri&#8217;s? Let the Kashmiri&#8217;s go to the Muzaffarabad and get protected by Pakistani forces that are running away at first sight of a Taliban. Let the powerful Pakistani Army which if not for alms from Americans would have looked under equipped and under moralled compared to the Taliban.

Why let the Kashmiri&#8217;s feel oppressed by Indians? Let them go to Muzaffarabad and get oppressed by Pakistanis and Taliban.

More at *****************

no one knows the value of a thing(IA) till they miss it.

 

[vish]

Vish,

I have stated already that I have no interest in answering line by line incoherent retorts that distort the context of the post and add no value to the discussion.

Recompile your post into something coherent please - the question is simple enough, and 'no it wont' without any justification or rationale is nothing but intellectual laziness.

Fair enough

The referendum that you often harp back to came with a set of pre-conditions. These were never satisfied by all the three parties: India, China and Pakistan. Why is it that only India is to be blamed here?

And this is the primary reason why we will never hold a referendum. And neither should the Valley be made exclusive&#8230; what is the reason for which they are demanding independence&#8230; religion? Does this not go against our secular ethos?

The biggest myth floating around is the presence of the IA&#8230; we need to maintain those numbers because we are fighting a guerrilla war&#8230; and a guerrilla war demands troops in the ratio of 25:1. Why is it that the history of the region prior to the insurgency always overlooked? Was there not &#8220;peace&#8221; then?

Most of our disputes run far deeper than Kashmir. You&#8217;ll never forget Bangladesh and we&#8217;ll never forget Kargil, and so on and so forth. Plus, I doubt the macho-military establishment in Pakistan will stop at the Valley&#8230; the Khalistani movement being a case in point.

This is why I only said that the animosity will run deep. Let&#8217;s for a moment assume that the Valley is granted independence (which won&#8217;t happen for one billion uber-nationalist Indians matter), then you think my countrymen will not blame Pakistan for the &#8220;debacle?&#8221; You think Hindu-Muslim relations will not hit a new low? You are ignoring all of these for your own nationalist &#8220;cause&#8221;&#8230; which is to &#8220;defeat&#8221; India at least once.

Further, why don't you guys stop the 'Hindu atrocities' blabber, and then we'll oblige by maintaining a lid on our own mouths&#8230;

And what benefits are we going to get? Death of secular India by the hands of the Valley's mullahs? You are ignoring the point AM... no longer we (Indians at large) "care" about them... the potential implication is removal of Article 370...


Also, do let me know if you need any of my other posts re-paraphrased.

 

[vish]

Now this is definitely a positive dynamic, since the huge involvement of the youth indicates that the sentiment has thrived on its own, despite the 'attraction of consumerism', instead of being restricted to a generation that has memories of 1947.

You are ignoring the role your insurgency played in "creating" and "molding" this psyche.

This is the primary goal of every insurgency... to create an anti-establishment feeling among the masses.

Whatever be their (masses') concern, the blame will be on us for we are the establishment. You'll notice a similar thing in FATA, NWFP, etc sooner or later.

But, if you want to rose-colour the above phenomenon to suit your agenda, I can't stop you. Feel free to do so.

 

[roadrunner]

Fair enough

The referendum that you often harp back to came with a set of pre-conditions. These were never satisfied by all the three parties: India, China and Pakistan. Why is it that only India is to be blamed here?

AM can deal with the rest (and this), I'm sure. But as it's as far as I got through your post, I'll add that India was the only one that did not hold its end of the bargain for demilitarization of Kashmir. This has been discussed hundreds of times on this forum alone, and a separate thread has been created that explains in detail exactly why India, but not Pakistan or China, prevented the holding of a UN administered plebiscite. Read the comments on that thread and then post back on here.

 

[vish]

AM can deal with the rest (and this), I'm sure. But as it's as far as I got through your post, I'll add that India was the only one that did not hold its end of the bargain for demilitarization of Kashmir. This has been discussed hundreds of times on this forum alone, and a separate thread has been created that explains in pristine detail exactly why India, but not Pakistan or China, prevented the holding of a UN administered plebiscite. Read the comments on that thread and then post back on here.

Can you give me a link?

 

[roadrunner]

Can you give me a link?

here you go

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate.../7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations-4.html

 

[vish]

here you go

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate.../7904-kashmir-resolutions-explanations-4.html

The thread was very much inconclusive and simply stated one thing:

Nobody is interested in abiding by the resolutions.

Pakistan does not want the Valley to remain with India; its as simple as that.

Everything else is PR.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The thread was very much inconclusive and simply stated one thing:

Nobody is interested in abiding by the resolutions.

Pakistan does not want the Valley to remain with India; its as simple as that.

Everything else is PR.

Not really - the arguments RR laid out in the first few posts, with references and highlights and the correspondence from UN officials was quite clear as to where blame was being assigned, and how the demilitarization was to take place, which is not how Indians paint it.

If you have rebuttals to the points raised in those firs posts, please do so in that thread, rather than just grandstanding that 'the thread was inconclusive'.

 

[Flintlock]

Uniting through religion, race, ethnicity or nationality is teh choice of a people - it is not up to you to determine who is right or not.

The whole idea of a 'nation' is discriminatory, and India is discriminatory, since it seceded from the British, and the 'Indic civilization' is celebrated as separate and distinct.

Similarly, people have the right to define their identity however they see fit.

Please, don't commit intellectual suicide by comparing the Indian freedom movement to the Kashmiri separatists. Its not only wrong, its insulting.

One cannot choose everything according to his or her wishes. The truth is always singular, and it is not relative to your emotions or feelings.
Kashmiris, have been misled and brainwashed by Islamist propaganda into believing that their only path to salvation is Islam. Since we know better, we can say with some confidence that such thinking will lead them to the gutter. It already has.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are ignoring the role your insurgency played in "creating" and "molding" this psyche.

This is the primary goal of every insurgency... to create an anti-establishment feeling among the masses.

Whatever be their (masses') concern, the blame will be on us for we are the establishment. You'll notice a similar thing in FATA, NWFP, etc sooner or later.

But, if you want to rose-colour the above phenomenon to suit your agenda, I can't stop you. Feel free to do so.

Creating an anti-establishment feeling would be possible in a situation like Bajaur, where the people are displaced, and their homes are targeted as the militants find sanctuary in them.

In the case of the Kashmiri youth mentioned, the insurgency creating an 'anti-establishment feeling' argument does not work at all, since it is quite evident that Kashmir has prospered in the last few years as the GoI has pumped money and resources into it, and the forces of consumerism have been unleashed.

That is in fact why the participation of the youth in the current movement is important, since theirs is a generation that has not been impacted by the insurgency as much as that of the older one, and has experienced India's economic growth and rise.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Please, don't commit intellectual suicide by comparing the Indian freedom movement to the Kashmiri separatists. Its not only wrong, its insulting.

I am not, you are being intellectually lazy by merely spouting off 'intellectual suicide' without actually countering any arguments.

One cannot choose everything according to his or her wishes. The truth is always singular, and it is not relative to your emotions or feelings.
Kashmiris, have been misled and brainwashed by Islamist propaganda into believing that their only path to salvation is Islam. Since we know better, we can say with some confidence that such thinking will lead them to the gutter. It already has.

Sorry, but I do not correlate Islam with Islamists - what we have currently.

You call it 'Islamist propaganda' because you hope to attach this to the WoT and that the West will but into your BS. Islamist as far as the violent insurgency is concerned, perhaps, but not the popular non-violent one we are seeing currently.

In any case, as I said, whether religion is used or the 'Indic Civilization propaganda', it amounts to the same thing - differentiation and segregation on the basis of whatever identity people choose to espouse.

 

[Flintlock]

I am not, you are being intellectually lazy by merely spouting off 'intellectual suicide' without actually countering any arguments.

I don't need to counter your arguments. The Indian Independence Movement was a glorious chapter in the history of the world, an inspiration in terms of the great ideas and thinking that it generated.

It will simply degrade this great period to even try and compare it with the nasty religion-based hate-mongering of people like Geelani.

Sorry, but I do not correlate Islam with Islamists - what we have currently.

You call it 'Islamist propaganda' because you hope to attach this to the WoT and that the West will but into your BS. Islamist as far as the violent insurgency is concerned, perhaps, but not the popular non-violent one we are seeing currently.

Sorry, its not me, but the leaders of the movement whoa re using Islamist propaganda. Stop looking at me and start reading about what the Kashmiris and their leaders are spouting off in their rallies.

In any case, as I said, whether religion is used or the 'Indic Civilization propaganda', it amounts to the same thing - differentiation and segregation on the basis of whatever identity people choose to espouse.

It doesn't, and again, don't embarrass yourself by calling the Indic Civilization as propaganda.
A *** cannot be compared favorably with a Racehorse.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Fair enough

The referendum that you often harp back to came with a set of pre-conditions. These were never satisfied by all the three parties: India, China and Pakistan. Why is it that only India is to be blamed here?

And this is the primary reason why we will never hold a referendum. And neither should the Valley be made exclusive&#8230; what is the reason for which they are demanding independence&#8230; religion? Does this not go against our secular ethos?

The biggest myth floating around is the presence of the IA&#8230; we need to maintain those numbers because we are fighting a guerrilla war&#8230; and a guerrilla war demands troops in the ratio of 25:1. Why is it that the history of the region prior to the insurgency always overlooked? Was there not &#8220;peace&#8221; then?

Most of our disputes run far deeper than Kashmir. You&#8217;ll never forget Bangladesh and we&#8217;ll never forget Kargil, and so on and so forth. Plus, I doubt the macho-military establishment in Pakistan will stop at the Valley&#8230; the Khalistani movement being a case in point.

This is why I only said that the animosity will run deep. Let&#8217;s for a moment assume that the Valley is granted independence (which won&#8217;t happen for one billion uber-nationalist Indians matter), then you think my countrymen will not blame Pakistan for the &#8220;debacle?&#8221; You think Hindu-Muslim relations will not hit a new low? You are ignoring all of these for your own nationalist &#8220;cause&#8221;&#8230; which is to &#8220;defeat&#8221; India at least once.

Further, why don't you guys stop the 'Hindu atrocities' blabber, and then we'll oblige by maintaining a lid on our own mouths&#8230;

And what benefits are we going to get? Death of secular India by the hands of the Valley's mullahs? You are ignoring the point AM... no longer we (Indians at large) "care" about them... the potential implication is removal of Article 370...


Also, do let me know if you need any of my other posts re-paraphrased.

The referendum questions, as RR pointed out, are answered in the thread whose link he posted.

However, I wasn't arguing about whose fault it was that the UN resolutions were not implemented, but that the condition of plebiscite attached to the IoA and the UNSC resolutions indicating the same as a solution to the dispute indicate quite clearly what the road map to a settlement is - a referendum.

Your 'secular ethos' has no place here - this is a territorial dispute between India and Pakistan that dates back to 1947, and in resolving it one of the proposals is to utilize some of the conditions used for the partition of British India.

What dispute runs deeper than Kashmir? All our wars, bar 1971 (initiated by India, so perhaps the hatred is on your side) were over Kashmir, our military has developed because of Kashmir, the refusal to normalize relations has been over Kashmir. Your hypothesis is just a fantasy, with no facts backing it up.

Communal sentiment in India is not our problem - if you cannot control extremist Hindus from retaliating against Muslims because a territorial dispute unresolved from partition was resolved per the conditions of the instrument of accession and UNSC resolutions, then you are a highly flawed society and nation.

The Khalistan movement thing is another canard - what little support Pakistan gave it was in the aftermath of 1971, and so considered payback for what was done then. However, since BB gave up the leadership, the Pakistani establishment has not pursued the issue, and given that we are not supporting it currently, while Kashmir is not resolved, I see no reason why we would support it after the major source of tension is gone.

It also have to point out that the hostility in 1971, and the sentiment that led to support for the Khalistani movement, however briefly, find root in the Kashmir dispute, since the underlying hostility between the two nations was a direct result of an unresolved Kashmir and events related to it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't need to counter your arguments. The Indian Independence Movement was a glorious chapter in the history of the world, an inspiration in terms of the great ideas and thinking that it generated.

It will simply degrade this great period to even try and compare it with the nasty religion-based hate-mongering of people like Geelani.

You don't have any rebuttals - the comparison is perfectly apt. And take your Islam hating attitude elsewhere.

The Kashmiri freedom movement is a continuation of the 'glorious chapter' of freedom movements in South Asia'.

Sorry, its not me, but the leaders of the movement whoa re using Islamist propaganda. Stop looking at me and start reading about what the Kashmiris and their leaders are spouting off in their rallies.

It doesn't, and again, don't embarrass yourself by calling the Indic Civilization as propaganda.
A *** cannot be compared favorably with a Racehorse.

Islam, not Islamist (going by the common usage of the term "Islamist' currently) has nothing wrong with it, and it is but one leader.

Please stop with the personal attacks if you can't argue. I am committing 'intellectual suicide' , 'embarrassing myself' whatever. And please refrain from denigrating another's just cause - I have not hurled slurs at the Indian freedom movement, I expect you to extend the same courtesy to the Kashmiris, beyond which you are just flaming.

If you cannot argue for whatever excuses you want to spout, don't post. Don't pretend like you actually have an argument and it is beneath you to respond - you don't.