Kashmir, the “Final” solution!

[randomradio]

@hellfire @Nilgiri @MilSpec

Fun thread.

 

[Nilgiri]

@hellfire @Nilgiri @MilSpec

Fun thread.

Reportedly...

 

[Kabira]

Jammu goes to India.

AJK, GB & Kashmir valley gets to choose to join Pakistan or remain independent.

F that, Jammu goes to India and we will hold referendum for the rest? AJK, GB and Valley goes to Pakistan.

 

[HalfMoon]

Pak will agree for plebiscite in Kashmir Valley but Modi will not. Also Indian Jammmu and Kashmir cannot be divided administratively as different units unless BJP gets 2/3 of majority in Kashmir assembly which I don't think BJP can get in near future otherwise BJP would have done it couple of years ago.

Once Pakistan agrees to the proposal, India would announce the division of J&K and conduct the plebiscite in the Kashmir valley.

 

[randomradio]

The proposal to restrict the plebiscite to Kashmir valley only is being socialized through Norway's mediation. It is up to Pakistan to take it or leave it.

If Pakistan asks for plebiscite in Jammu then India would ask for plebiscite in AJK & GB.

Sorry matey, none of this is happening. It's a bilateral dispute, there is no Norway involved here.

Officially, India considers only Azad Kashmir and GB as disputed. So there is no question of a plebiscite for Kashmir valley.

 

[HalfMoon]

F that, Jammu goes to India and we will hold referendum for the rest? AJK, GB and Valley goes to Pakistan.

No the plebiscite would be restricted to the Kashmir valley only. There would not be any plebiscite in AJK or GB. AJK and GB would officially join Pakistan without a plebiscite.

Sorry matey, none of this is happening. It's a bilateral dispute, there is no Norway involved here.

Officially, India considers only Azad Kashmir and GB as disputed. So there is no question of a plebiscite for Kashmir valley.

That was the stand of the Congress.

BJP/Modi's plan is to divide J&K into 3 parts to solve the issue. Modi has engaged the services of Norway through his close friend Sri Sri Ravishankar to facilitate this deal with Pakistan.

 

[GumNaam]

It is for people from valley to decide. Modi is giving them the option.

Role reversal: When India proposed a plebiscite to solve Kashmir – and Pakistan rejected it

After Nawaz Sharif brought up the plebiscite again at the UNGA, looking back to the time when MA Jinnah said no to one.

Shoaib Daniyal

Kashmir is no stranger to uprisings but even by its own tumultuous standards, the current agitation is unprecedented. The police have had to flee south Kashmir and to maintain the presence of the state, the Indian army has had to move in. For the first time in recorded history, Eid prayers were banned in the Valley’s major mosques and prayer grounds. Mainstream politics has also been frozen, as the mood on the street rejects symbols it considers as representing India.

Reacting to the troubles, the third player in this sordid drama, Pakistan has proposed that India conduct a plebiscite in Kashmir in order to determine the wishes of the Kashmiri people. As is also par for the course, India rejected the demand.

This bit – Pakistan demanding a plebiscite and India sticking to its stand that Kashmir is non-negotiable – has been done so many times that it now barely makes the news. Given how wedded both India and Pakistan are to their positions, it is interesting to point out that they had polar opposite stances in 1947. In that year, just a few months after the birth of the two dominions, it was India that proposed a Kashmir plebiscite. And it was Pakistan – in a move that might count as amongst the worst ever in international politics – that rejected it.

Background
As the Raj ended, Kashmir entered into chaos. The Maharaja lost control of large parts of his kingdom and, in panic, even attempted to ethnically cleanse Muslims from some regions. By September 1947, Pathan tribals, supported by Pakistan, started to stream into Kashmir. Soon the Maharaja acceded to India and the Indian Army entered the conflict.

The concept of a plebiscite first entered into the equation in September 1947, not in relation to Kashmir but with respect to the tiny Gujarati principality of Junagadh, whose Muslim ruler had acceded to Pakistan. This infuriated India, given that Junagadh was in India and wasn’t contiguous with Pakistan. As a result, India toppled the ruler’s administration and proposed a plebiscite to solve the matter (a vote that India would easily win). Of course, this also set a precedent and Nehru accepted that this would also apply to other states. The concept of a ruler deciding accession was now on shaky ground – a decision that would of course apply to Kashmir. In the meeting where this was decided, British bureaucrat HV Hodson noted that, “Liaquat Ali Khan’s [the Pakistan Prime Minister] eyes sparkled” at the possibilities this opened for Kashmir.

This though was not that much of a surprise. The Congress had for a long time held that the princely states should be decided as per the wishes of its people. In November, 1947, therefore, the Governor General of India Lord Mountbatten headed to Lahore to conduct talks with Pakistan’s Governor General, Mohamed Ali Jinnah.

Jinnah-Mountbatten talks
While Governor General Mountbatten, a Britisher and the last Viceroy of the Raj, technically held a constitutional post, in actuality he had a fair bit of power even after August 15, 1947 – he even supervised Indian military operations in Kashmir. For these talks with Jinnah – that could have changed the subcontinent’s history – he went with the Indian cabinet’s approval to offer something that has now been Pakistan’s demand for the past seven decades: a plebiscite in Kashmir.

On November 1, in Government House, Lahore, Mountbatten put forward India’s proposal: a plebiscite to decide the fate of Junagadh, Hyderabad – and Kashmir. This was the exact wording of India’s proposal:

The Governments of India and Pakistan agree that, where the ruler of a State does not belong to the community to which the majority of his subjects belong, and where the State has not acceded to that Dominion whose majority community is the same as the State’s, the question of whether the State should finally accede to one or the other of the Dominions should in all cases be decided by an impartial reference to the will of the people

To sweeten the deal, Mountbatten even assured Jinnah that the United Nations would be allowed to supervise the process.

Jinnah rejects the plebiscite
Amazingly, Jinnah actually rejected this proposal. He could never accept any formula that included Hyderabad since (at the time) the princely state wished to remain independent, argued the Governor General of Pakistan.

Mountbatten then pointed out that this was as a good a deal as Pakistan would ever get given Pakistan’s much weaker position militarily relative to India. This was sound advice: India and Pakistan have fought four wars and India’s vast military superiority has ensured that the position of the Kashmir Valley remains unchanged.

Historian AG Noorani claims that Jinnah’s inexplicable stand was because he was “besotted with Hyderabad”. Noorani also points out that Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan was more open to the idea but was overruled by Jinnah.

The inability of Jinnah to process India’s military superiority was not unexpected – he had shown a similar failure to deal with realpolitik in the negotiations leading up to Partition, thinking mostly as a lawyer and not as a politician.

Missed opportunity
In hindsight, this was a terrible decision – especially given the fact that modern Pakistan has been near-obsessed with Kashmir. Not only has the pursuit of Kashmir cost Pakistan a lot of money, it has corrupted its society. Its military has grown to control the state, propped up by the bogey of India. Kashmir has also allowed Islamist militants to grow, giving them popular legitimacy in the 1990s. Today, those same militants have turned on Pakistan itself, tearing to shreds law and order in the country. And this is not to even begin to go into the human cost of seven decades of conflict in Kashmir.

Another real shot at a plebiscite never came again. Although a 1948 United Nations resolution called for plebiscite (and as a first step, asked Pakistan to withdraw its troops, which it refused to do), after 1971 this was a dead letter: the Simla Agreement of 1972 ensured that the entire Kashmir dispute would see no third-party intervention, not even the United Nation’s. Today, the Indian stand is that Kashmir is an “integral part” of the Union, which of course rules out a plebiscite even in theory.

On June 3, 1947, the Congress had accepted the communal division of Punjab and Bengal in return for stable, centralised rule. Mountbatten’s November 1947 offer to Jinnah for a Kashmiri plebiscite was a part of the same thought process. In the chaos of 1947, it seems the Congress was prepared to allow Kashmir the option of a plebiscite in order to stitch up the massive hole that Hyderabad represented in the map of India and ensure the new dominion’s stability.


https://scroll.in/article/816661/ro...ite-to-solve-kashmir-and-pakistan-rejected-it

I don't think you get it... got modi is NOT IN A POSITION TO MAKE ANY OFFERS! its like saying that america and its lacky the mayor of kabul are gonna make an "offer" to the taliban!

 

[HalfMoon]

I don't think you get it... got modi is NOT IN A POSITION TO MAKE ANY OFFERS!

Right Indian PM Modi cannot make the offer. Kim Jong-un of North Korea will make the offer.

 

[randomradio]

That was the stand of the Congress.

BJP/Modi's plan is to divide J&K into 3 parts to solve the issue. Modi has engaged the services of Norway through his close friend Sri Sri Ravishankar to facilitate this deal with Pakistan.

Nope. There is no such plan. Read up on Simla Agreement.

There will be no plebiscite in Kashmir Valley or any other part that India controls, that train left the station in 1972.

You are free to hold plebiscites in AK and GB on your own.

 

[GumNaam]

Right Indian PM Modi cannot make the offer. Kim Jong-un of North Korea will make the offer.

even kim jongun is in a better position to make offers that pardhan spunk monkey!

 

[HalfMoon]

Nope. There is no such plan. Read up on Simla Agreement.

There will be no plebiscite in Kashmir Valley or any other part that India controls, that train left the station in 1972.

You are free to hold plebiscites in AK and GB on your own.

Seems like you are stuck in Congress era. This is Modi's era. He is trying to solve the issue once for all. J&K is being divided into three parts in the next 2 months.

 

[GumNaam]

Nope. There is no such plan. Read up on Simla Agreement.

There will be no plebiscite in Kashmir Valley or any other part that India controls, that train left the station in 1972.

You are free to hold plebiscites in AK and GB on your own.

india is in no position ro make offers or anything else while WE are in a position of power....WE will be making the dictates, you can either accept them or continue to bleed. what're you gonna do? train more bla terrorists in the little 10% of afghanistan amreeka and its lacky has left??? :ppffrrfffttrt!

 

[HalfMoon]

I don't think you get it... got modi is NOT IN A POSITION TO MAKE ANY OFFERS! its like saying that america and its lacky the mayor of kabul are gonna make an "offer" to the taliban!

It would be fun to see your reaction once IK accepts the Indian offer being facilitated through Norway.

 

[randomradio]

Seems like you are stuck in Congress era. This is Modi's era. He is trying to solve the issue once for all. J&K is being divided into three parts in the next 2 months.

It doesn't matter whose era it is. And J&K cannot be divided anyway. This is all basically what is called as "fake news", which is rampant in Kashmir.

The real news is J&K is going to enter the election phase over the next few months.

https://www.huffingtonpost.in/2018/...fore-may-says-election-commission_a_23597592/
"The Jammu and Kashmir assembly polls must be held on the first occasion before May... it could be held before parliament elections also," Chief Election Commissioner OP Rawat said.

The same old, same old.

 

[GumNaam]

It would be fun to see your reaction once IK accepts the Indian offer being facilitated through Norway.

PM Imran Khan isn't gonna do anything without having the GHQ on board. And the GHQ is in no hurry as they are making bleed without lifting a finger.