Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Guys.. Lets keep Durand Line and other subjects out of this thread..

I am perfectly happy with not discussing Baluchistan, FATA, Swat and NWFP, since there is absolutely no equivalence with these territories and the disputed territory of J&K. However, it is Indians who have to stop dragging in extraneous issues such as these in Kashmir discussions - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.

 

[karan.1970]

Of course Pakistan cares, since India has made it a point to use the LeT as propaganda against Pakistan.

Whether you trust the IA to keep you safe or not has little to do with whether the claims made in the article are true or not. Trust does not equal evidence. So long as these events occur in disputed territory and India accuses 'external actors', it becomes Pakistan's business.

Oh! I meant Who cares in India..

And really, for Indian Army hunting down the terrorists scum in the state of J&K , Pakistan's feelings or care really dont mean a thing.. You may argue that these guys are not LeT. That's fine.. No one is taking that to court anyway... And really, even if any evidence is required to justify that these were fair kills that is between Indian Army and GoI. Pakistan has no business there... And any way Pakistan also calls LeT a terrorist organization.. so whats the issue. No one has said that these were Pakistani Army soldiers.. Have they??

Look at it this way

1. If these were innocents, its between GoI and IA
2. If these were terrorists, good for us..

As I said.. Pakistan has no standing in this..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Tell me about anything remotely similar which happens in Pakistan.

Go to the Baluchistan thread and look at the videos of interviews of Baluch nationalist leaders, and members of Baluch nationalist organizations giving interviews on Pakistani TV channels claiming atrocities and demanding independence.

These leaders and organizations also run their business in open view and are allowed to participate. The ones that are banned and underground are primarily the ones using violence as a tool to achieve their demands.

 

[naved_kam]

Of course Pakistan cares, since India has made it a point to use the LeT as propaganda against Pakistan.

Not just India Sir, please put U.S also in that set of progandist regimes against the LeT. Also U.K. This Dawood Gilani fellow has really given the evil propagandists another opportunity to falsely implicate an innocent nation.

Whether you trust the IA to keep you safe or not has little to do with whether the claims made in the article are true or not. Trust does not equal evidence. So long as these events occur in disputed territory and India accuses 'external actors', it becomes Pakistan's business.

If every accusation of role of "external actors" in the world becomes Pakistan's business then no wonder GoP is so busy. Russia too just a few days back alluded to adding Pakistan's work load in this business activity.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh! I meant Who cares in India..

And really, for Indian Army hunting down the terrorists scum in the state of J&K , Pakistan's feelings or care really dont mean a thing.. You may argue that these guys are not LeT. That's fine.. No one is taking that to court anyway... And really, even if any evidence is required to justify that these were fair kills that is between Indian Army and GoI. Pakistan has no business there... And any way Pakistan also calls LeT a terrorist organization.. so whats the issue. No one has said that these were Pakistani Army soldiers.. Have they??

Look at it this way

1. If these were innocents, its between GoI and IA
2. If these were terrorists, good for us..

As I said.. Pakistan has no standing in this..

So long as the territory is disputed and India references Pakistan in some way it is our business, whether you care or not makes no difference.

I take it then that there is no evidence validating Indian media claims on the identity of these individuals...

 

[karan.1970]

Strawman - who is legitimizing terror attacks? How do we know these militants would have engaged in terrorism (deliberate attacks on non-combatants) rather than attack Indian security forces occupying the territory?

Either way, they had to be shot. Isnt it?? You dont expect Indian forces to stand still while being attacked??

Read my last response to you on this point - whether India wishes to live in delusions over the status of J&K does not change reality.

Either way, delusions or not.. Pakistan does not have a say in the state of J&K.

There can be no equivalence between FATA, Swat and K-P on one side, and disputed territory on the other. How do we know these militants were terrorists, rather than militants fighting against Indian occupation to get India to let the Kashmiris exercise their right of self-determination?

The only difference then is the UN stamp.. On ground that does not mean a thing today. So if right of self determination is the benchmark, then that right does not need a stamp of approval from UN.. And thats pretty much is the difference between Kashmir, and Balochistan, FATA, SWAT and NWFP

 

[karan.1970]

I am perfectly happy with not discussing Baluchistan, FATA, Swat and NWFP, since there is absolutely no equivalence with these territories and the disputed territory of J&K. However, it is Indians who have to stop dragging in extraneous issues such as these in Kashmir discussions - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.

The issue is not the status of J&K vs pakistani territories. The issue in discussion was terrorirsts/militants and their treatment. There is nothing that says that the security forces are allowed to kill terrorists/militants in a non disputed area but not in a disputed area.

And to your strawman arguement around the possibiliity of these folks not attacking civilians, do you suggest that IA waits till they do that and allow civilians to be killed before taking action??

btw there was an attack on a civilian rail line today in J&K. A line not used normally by IA. What would that be ?? a RAW false flag?

 

[Iggy]

I am perfectly happy with not discussing Baluchistan, FATA, Swat and NWFP, since there is absolutely no equivalence with these territories and the disputed territory of J&K. However, it is Indians who have to stop dragging in extraneous issues such as these in Kashmir discussions - both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.

And Baluchistan became disputed territory when?

One Indian already had his anti-Pakistan talking points debunked on the Durand Line, you really want to go down that road on Baluchistan now?

No Agno i dont really care about what happening in Baluchistan..but i dont like people defending and glorifying terrorism in the name of freedom fighting..there is no good and bad terrorism.. all terrorism are bad..so i was giving him taste of his own medicine..if you think killing people in the name of freedom in Baluchistan is terrorism then killing in Kashmir by militants are also terrorism ...

 

[karan.1970]

So long as the territory is disputed and India references Pakistan in some way it is our business, whether you care or not makes no difference.

I take it then that there is no evidence validating Indian media claims on the identity of these individuals...

No.. There is none in the circulation at this time.. May be IA is waiting for the Right Time to disclose that..

For us, its a happy enough news that some of these terrorists are getting hunted like the animals they are.. Whether they are from Pakistan based LeT or not, that is secondary...

About this being your business, yes, a lot of Indians do belive that it is...At least the seed capital if not active management at this time..

 

[Skeptic]

btw there was an attack on a civilian rail line today in J&K. A line not used normally by IA. What would that be ?? a RAW false flag?

Exactly my view. Why does the Pakistani vision get blurred when civilian establishment in and Outside Kashmir are targeted. The railway line was there to help civilians only, and don't tell me Local Kashmirs will be helped in any way by destruction of commutation channels.

False Flag operation: We dont need those to preach to converted. World view is close to the Indian opinion, and we do not need any of these false flag operation to strengthen our claims.

Yeah they were innocent youth who were hiding in the forest with AK47s with an intention of hunting for rabbits. And yes, it is snowing in Chennai as well.

Which organization were they from... If the people at the scene say LeT we have no reasons to disbelief them. Finer details will be figured out later, right now it is time to kill these scumbags who have zero value for human life, neither theirs nor others.

 

[karan.1970]

- both you and Seiko have done that on this thread.

Just to clarify my stand on this...The post I put in went like this..


===============================
I guess same as what PA is doing in FATA, SWAT and NWFP.. Asking all taliban to disperse, to be used later for formenting terrorism in Afg. Catching hold of Innocent Pashtuns and killing them and showing dead bodies to collect aid from US...???



See how bad it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.. What you said was as ridiculous as the statement above..
============================

which was in response to someone commenting that these encounters were fake.

I was drawing a parallel to an PA operation and why it is ridiculous to call either of them as fake..The intent was not to equate J&K to NWFP anyway atleast before the slug fest began...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Either way, they had to be shot. Isnt it?? You dont expect Indian forces to stand still while being attacked??

Another strawman and digression. Who said anything about 'Indian forces standing by'? You are concocting your own points as you go along and arguing against them.

However, the issue of why the media (and Indian security forces if they were the source) claimed these militants were LeT is relevant to the credibility of the media and the IA, and relevant to Pakistan in that it seeks to build upon the usual Indian propaganda of 'Pakistan not acting against the LeT.

Either way, delusions or not.. Pakistan does not have a say in the state of J&K.

Given our influence with separatist leaders (political and militant, in IAK and outside IAK) I would argue Pakistan does have a say, and we have exercised that 'say' very responsibly since Musharraf embarked upon the back channel dialog with India by helping reduce the insurgency to a trickle.

Whether you accept it or not, as in the case of the disputed status of the territory, does not change reality.

The only difference then is the UN stamp.. On ground that does not mean a thing today. So if right of self determination is the benchmark, then that right does not need a stamp of approval from UN.. And thats pretty much is the difference between Kashmir, and Balochistan, FATA, SWAT and NWFP

Oh but it means a whole lot - what the UN resolutions do is internationalize the issue and legitimize Pakistan's interests in J&K, and it legitimizes the demands of the people in favor of self determination of that territory.Anything outside of that is 'local grievances' and will be handled domestically.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No Agno i dont really care about what happening in Baluchistan..but i dont like people defending and glorifying terrorism in the name of freedom fighting.there is no good and bad terrorism.. all terrorism are bad..so i was giving him taste of his own medicine..if you think killing people in the name of freedom in Baluchistan is terrorism then killing in Kashmir by militants are also terrorism ...

I don't think anyone is defending and glorifying attacks on 'non-combatants'. Attacks on Indian security forces are legitimate. Are there militants that deliberately attack non-combatants - yes, and they should be condemned, just as the IA should be condemned for the tens of thousands of innocents it has massacred and tortured in J&K.

You can't just 'cherry pick' the atrocities by militants and give a free pass to the Indian and Indian controlled security forces.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No.. There is none in the circulation at this time.. May be IA is waiting for the Right Time to disclose that..

For us, its a happy enough news that some of these terrorists are getting hunted like the animals they are.. Whether they are from Pakistan based LeT or not, that is secondary...

About this being your business, yes, a lot of Indians do belive that it is...At least the seed capital if not active management at this time..

Starting to troll now that you have no answers?

BTW, when you use language like that, you justify the use of language by Pakistanis referencing the four soldiers killed fighting militants a few days ago as 'Indian Army dogs dying like the animals they are', which is 'happy news for those of us that oppose Indian occupation of kashmir'.

There is a reason why I said that the 'rhetoric' needs to be toned down.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Just as a matter of curiousity. Has the issue of joint administration of Kashmir (the entire Kashmir including the part administered by Pakistan) by India and Pakistan ever been discussed? It is well known that Pakistan regards Kashmir as being an important source of its water and India , well India regards Kashmir as being its territory. I am not well clued up on Kashmir having just visited the area for a few days and the media in Africa doesn't seem to regard Kashmir as being newsworthy and in fact reports the whole of Kashmir as being Indian territory. I was once amazed to read here that an event which occured in Azad Kashmir was reported as being an "Indian event". Any idea what the policies of India and Pakistan are on joint administration. My view is that this will dispel 99% of the animosity of the 2 nations and will lead to a new stride in Sth Asia