Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just as a matter of curiousity. Has the issue of joint administration of Kashmir (the entire Kashmir including the part administered by Pakistan) by India and Pakistan ever been discussed? It is well known that Pakistan regards Kashmir as being an important source of its water and India , well India regards Kashmir as being its territory. I am not well clued up on Kashmir having just visited the area for a few days and the media in Africa doesn't seem to regard Kashmir as being newsworthy and in fact reports the whole of Kashmir as being Indian territory. I was once amazed to read here that an event which occured in Azad Kashmir was reported as being an "Indian event". Any idea what the policies of India and Pakistan are on joint administration. My view is that this will dispel 99% of the animosity of the 2 nations and will lead to a new stride in Sth Asia

The reported 'deal' through backchannel dialog during Musharraf's time would have created a situation similar to a 'joint administration'.

Rather unfortunate that it fell through.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

The reported 'deal' through backchannel dialog during Musharraf's time would have created a situation similar to a 'joint administration'.

Rather unfortunate that it fell through.

I heard the General speak once when I was in the USA and he was still President of Pakistan. He made limited reference to Kashmir but spoke about global issues and need to engage in good faith dialogue to ensure stability in the world. He was truly amazing and I would not be surprised if he indeed suggested a joint administration. It is indeed a pity not only for the peoples of Kashmir but for the entire sub continent that such a deal did not materialise

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I heard the General speak once when I was in the USA and he was still President of Pakistan. He made limited reference to Kashmir but spoke about global issues and need to engage in good faith dialogue to ensure stability in the world. He was truly amazing and I would not be surprised if he indeed suggested a joint administration. It is indeed a pity not only for the peoples of Kashmir but for the entire sub continent that such a deal did not materialise

You know, for someone known as the 'architect of kargil' (which by all accounts he appears to be, even if NS gave his approval), ironically Musharraf showed an amazing amount of flexibility on J&K and did indeed act as a statesman.

It is indeed a pity for South Asia that Kashmir has not been resolved yet. Looking back, it seems a history of missed opportunities. Hopefully we won't add to the count the next time one comes up.

 

[Jade]

Given our influence with separatist leaders (political and militant, in IAK and outside IAK) I would argue Pakistan does have a say, and we have exercised that 'say' very responsibly since Musharraf embarked upon the back channel dialog with India by helping reduce the insurgency to a trickle.

I think you are overestimating your influence on separatists. Except perhaps Syed Ali Gilani, please be clear that no separatist is with Pakistan. They are having their own ideas and interests on Kashmir which are not in line with what Pakistan thinks. It is clear that separatist are using Pakistan as a bargaining tool with India to get a better deal

Oh but it means a whole lot - what the UN resolutions do is internationalize the issue and legitimize Pakistan's interests in J&K, and it legitimizes the demands of the people in favor of self determination of that territory.Anything outside of that is 'local grievances' and will be handled domestically.

Last year alone there were around 40 UN resolutions. Is that meaning all the issues are internationalized? Except Pakistan no country has asked India for UN resolutions neither can anybody ask, lest their interest are effected, even Pakistan knows that UN resolutions are non implementable or can it force India to implement and is harping UN resolutions as a tool to bargain more from India

 

[karan.1970]

Another strawman and digression. Who said anything about 'Indian forces standing by'? You are concocting your own points as you go along and arguing against them.

Agno.. You said that how do we know if they were attacking civilians or Army.. And my view is that in either case, they needed to be shot. I am not at all concocting points here..

However, the issue of why the media (and Indian security forces if they were the source) claimed these militants were LeT is relevant to the credibility of the media and the IA, and relevant to Pakistan in that it seeks to build upon the usual Indian propaganda of 'Pakistan not acting against the LeT.

So I can agree with you on usage of term LeT, but then doesnt Pakistani media simply lands up on India every time there is a blast.. As you yourself have put it that India backed Balochi terrorists are suspect in most blast cases. The same applies here..

Given our influence with separatist leaders (political and militant, in IAK and outside IAK) I would argue Pakistan does have a say, and we have exercised that 'say' very responsibly since Musharraf embarked upon the back channel dialog with India by helping reduce the insurgency to a trickle.
Whether you accept it or not, as in the case of the disputed status of the territory, does not change reality.

Pakistan may have a say with a bunch of separatist leaders, but there value in J&K is significantly diminished post successful elections which they boycotted. The only say that can have any impact is with the organizations like LeT (if that say exists). And these ops are against those organizations only

Oh but it means a whole lot - what the UN resolutions do is internationalize the issue and legitimize Pakistan's interests in J&K, and it legitimizes the demands of the people in favor of self determination of that territory.Anything outside of that is 'local grievances' and will be handled domestically.

I dont see any govenments across the world condemning India on killing such people.. Do you??

Let me be clear once again. The issue under discussion here is killing of these terrorists. Not the status of Kashmir...

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I think you are overestimating your influence on separatists. Except perhaps Syed Ali Gilani, please be clear that no separatist is with Pakistan. They are having their own ideas and interests on Kashmir which are not in line with what Pakistan thinks. It is clear that separatist are using Pakistan as a bargaining tool with India to get a better deal



Last year alone there were around 40 UN resolutions. Is that meaning all the issues are internationalized? Except Pakistan no country has asked India for UN resolutions neither can anybody ask, lest their interest are effected, even Pakistan knows that UN resolutions are non implementable or can it force India to implement and is harping UN resolutions as a tool to bargain more from India

When 6 people and an Indian soldier is killed and the death toll starts mounting then people in Kashmir, Pakistan and India need to start asking themselves what exactly is the foundation of the problem. UN resolutions and tit for tat responses are immaterial. To the average Kashmiri mother who begs for her son's release from detention from the police just because he happened to bypass a crowd demanding "liberation" and was arrested for "being in the wrong place in the wrong time" , UN resolutions and what Pakistan or India wants out of Kashmir is immaterial. The day to day lives of all Kashmiris are being affected and Indians and Pakistanis need to look at the people of Kashmir and not Kashmir as being a land which they must fight on for their egos.

Kashmir is not just an ideological dispute between Pakistan and India. It is an insult to both Pakistan and India that they cannot between themselves resolve this dispute amicably and lead their lives as brothers. The only victims of this dispute are the Kashmiris. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the average Indian view that since Kashmir is part of India then it is necessary for the whole of India to decide on the future of Kashmir and not just the people of Kashmir. India as a nation will still remain a strong nation if just 3 state of India remains in the Union. We do not need to force our authority anywhere. I am definately not conceding that Kashmiris want independence or want to join the nation of Pakistan. All I am saying is that for peace to prevail then we have to ask our people of a certain area what exactly is it that they want. That is what we need to ask the Kashmiris via a poll. If we could engage with the Maoists when they commenced violence, why can't we do the same in Kashmir . If Kashmir is a thorn in the foot of South Asia then only India can remove that torn. We can boast all we want that we have the military might and the weapons to own Kashmir. But the question is simply whether we have the moral might to hold onto Kashmir. For the sake of progress the area should be jointly administered until it is well stabilised to ensure that the true wishes of the Kashmiris are elicited.

 

[Jade]

When 6 people and an Indian soldier is killed and the death toll starts mounting then people in Kashmir, Pakistan and India need to start asking themselves what exactly is the foundation of the problem. UN resolutions and tit for tat responses are immaterial. To the average Kashmiri mother who begs for her son's release from detention from the police just because he happened to bypass a crowd demanding "liberation" and was arrested for "being in the wrong place in the wrong time" , UN resolutions and what Pakistan or India wants out of Kashmir is immaterial. The day to day lives of all Kashmiris are being affected and Indians and Pakistanis need to look at the people of Kashmir and not Kashmir as being a land which they must fight on for their egos.

Kashmir is not just an ideological dispute between Pakistan and India. It is an insult to both Pakistan and India that they cannot between themselves resolve this dispute amicably and lead their lives as brothers. The only victims of this dispute are the Kashmiris. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the average Indian view that since Kashmir is part of India then it is necessary for the whole of India to decide on the future of Kashmir and not just the people of Kashmir. India as a nation will still remain a strong nation if just 3 state of India remains in the Union. We do not need to force our authority anywhere. I am definately not conceding that Kashmiris want independence or want to join the nation of Pakistan. All I am saying is that for peace to prevail then we have to ask our people of a certain area what exactly is it that they want. That is what we need to ask the Kashmiris via a poll. If we could engage with the Maoists when they commenced violence, why can't we do the same in Kashmir . If Kashmir is a thorn in the foot of South Asia then only India can remove that torn. We can boast all we want that we have the military might and the weapons to own Kashmir. But the question is simply whether we have the moral might to hold onto Kashmir. For the sake of progress the area should be jointly administered until it is well stabilised to ensure that the true wishes of the Kashmiris are elicited.

PlanetWarrior,

Believe me, majority of Indians are for peace. We don’t want any mother to lose a child. It is not just Kashmir, but the very foundation of India is lost. Although I respect your opinion, I personally believe that Indian Integrity cannot be negotiable. Moreover, Kashmir is not just about implementing some UN resolutions. There is more to it. Please, let me ask some questions to you. 1) What make you think that Kashmiris are not happy in the Union? 2) What makes you think that once Kashmir is solved, peace will prevail in South Asia? 3) Why do think that India does not have the moral rights to hold Kashmir? 4) What about the rest of Indians? 5) What about the communal violence in India if Kashmir goes out of the Union? 6) What about the effects of another partition on the subcontinent? 7) What about millions of people displaced from their native areas and become refugees? According to me, these questions take precedent over Kashmir.

Bro, I hope you have not misunderstood me. Peace is important, but at what cost.

 

[thebrownguy]

When 6 people and an Indian soldier is killed and the death toll starts mounting then people in Kashmir, Pakistan and India need to start asking themselves what exactly is the foundation of the problem. UN resolutions and tit for tat responses are immaterial. To the average Kashmiri mother who begs for her son's release from detention from the police just because he happened to bypass a crowd demanding "liberation" and was arrested for "being in the wrong place in the wrong time" , UN resolutions and what Pakistan or India wants out of Kashmir is immaterial. The day to day lives of all Kashmiris are being affected and Indians and Pakistanis need to look at the people of Kashmir and not Kashmir as being a land which they must fight on for their egos.

Kashmir is not just an ideological dispute between Pakistan and India. It is an insult to both Pakistan and India that they cannot between themselves resolve this dispute amicably and lead their lives as brothers. The only victims of this dispute are the Kashmiris. I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the average Indian view that since Kashmir is part of India then it is necessary for the whole of India to decide on the future of Kashmir and not just the people of Kashmir. India as a nation will still remain a strong nation if just 3 state of India remains in the Union. We do not need to force our authority anywhere. I am definately not conceding that Kashmiris want independence or want to join the nation of Pakistan. All I am saying is that for peace to prevail then we have to ask our people of a certain area what exactly is it that they want. That is what we need to ask the Kashmiris via a poll. If we could engage with the Maoists when they commenced violence, why can't we do the same in Kashmir . If Kashmir is a thorn in the foot of South Asia then only India can remove that torn. We can boast all we want that we have the military might and the weapons to own Kashmir. But the question is simply whether we have the moral might to hold onto Kashmir. For the sake of progress the area should be jointly administered until it is well stabilised to ensure that the true wishes of the Kashmiris are elicited.

I don't believe in replying with sugar coated pills. Such pseudo intellectual talks and ideologies can only help get you applauses, not solutions. An ideological world does not even exist in fiction now a days. Can you believe the hypocrisy of the separatist, they are willing to join hands against us, their rescuers, with the same people who invaded their land and created rape and plunder in 1947.

By your logic, even Khalistan movement was justified, because during the partition the future of a separate sikh state was to be decided later, it was not completely ruled out.

And what is prompting them to ask Azaadi? India offers them their democratic rights, and maybe even more than that. Special rights to retain land, reservations in schools, colleges and government jobs.
The so called oppression and human right violations have come in the picture after 1989, when these people supported separatism and insurgency for no justified cause. The lack of development is a choice made by Kasmiris themselves. The infrastructure in the valley has been rapidly developing, but these people do not want to put it to use. They have committed themselves to throwing stones every week, and crying about their woes. Its their choice to make, they have an opportunity to change things for them.

I understand that an idealist like you will never understand the crude justifications i have given. But please try to be a bit realistic when thinking about these issues. The most important point is "We will never let India break in 2 pieces" That is a fact. You will never see any solution in the Kashmir valley.

 

[FreekiN]

Of all the comments i have heard on this forum, this one must rank among the worst. Are you actually asking for mass murder to be committed in India like it was done on the Russian underground? Are you the same person who was calling the Saudis backward on another thread because they wanted to behead one guy? Guess your concern for humanity does not extend to Indians.

HUMANITY? HA!

SRINAGAR, India — The police shot and killed a Muslim protester as huge crowds shouting "We want freedom" took to the streets of Kashmir on Thursday over a land dispute that is testing New Delhi's hold on the troubled Himalayan region. [this was a while ago]

India has OCCUPIED Kashmir, endlessly killed and beaten innocent people and apparently they can talk about 'humanity?' They need half a million troops there just to keep it in order!

Death toll at the hands of Indian soldiers is about 50,000. Mass graves are still being found as long as they don't become subject to more cover-ups.

GG.

 

[prototype]

And Baluchistan became disputed territory when?

One Indian already had his anti-Pakistan talking points debunked on the Durand Line, you really want to go down that road on Baluchistan now?

ok let leave out that,baluchistan is not disputed and kashmir is

so u r justifying the terror network in kashmir because it is a disputed state

and please tell me how u think to resolve kasmir issue,by surrendering it?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

It is a fact that Pakistani terrorist groups having been slaughtering Kashmiris in the thousands.This is not just an Indian allegation ... former ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi has admitted it publicly in the Pakistan parliament.

LOL
And the kashmiris are fools protesting against crimes of occuping forces?rapes,encounter missing people etc.
And people like yaseen malik,gilani,umar farooq and others with support of kashmiri people are lying and indians are saying the truth?
While the whole world declares it disputed and HRC etc are reporting violation of basic human right and other herineous acts?

Indian troops in Kashmir protect the locals from Pakistani terrorists; the local public and police play a very important role in the efforts to kill the terrorists.

Half a million occuping force sitting since 47 protecting kashmiris who are asking for freedom????protesting rapes,murders and kidnaps are all Pakistani terrorists?
Wat a shame.
Son dont watch to many bollywood flicks it makes u look retarded.

Unfortunately, the majority of Pakistanis do not realize that they are victims of propaganda by their government.
Kashmir villagers protest Rashtrya Rifles camp pullout

Ishfaq ul Hassan / DNASaturday, March 27, 2010 0:11 IST

Srinagar: For those who champion the cause of demilitarisation, this should be an eye-opener.

Leaving behind fear, hundreds of people held a rare protest on Wednesday against the shifting of a Rashtriya Rifles (RR) camp from the remote Gadbad village in the border district of Kupwara.
Lieutenant Colonel JS Brar, the defence spokesman in Srinagar, said the protesters blocked roads leading out of the camp in Lolab valley. They also petitioned senior RR officers not to shift the camp, he said.

“The army has protected us from militant excesses. We do not want the dark days to return. We will approach the highest authority to stop the shifting,” 75-year-old Ghulam Ahmad Sheikh was quoted as saying. Sheikh’s two daughters were killed by militants in the late nineties.

About 120 km north of Srinagar, the serene Lolab valley was once a hotbed of militancy with several top ultras operating from the area. But the army eliminated dozens of senior militant leaders in the jungles, Brar said, adding, “The Rashtriya Rifles camps in the area have created a sense of security among locals.”

He said the readjustment of troops in active counter-insurgency operations was a dynamic and ongoing process. “However, this [protest] is heartening. Senior officers are aware of the matter, the security grid will not be affected,” the spokesman said.


Kashmir villagers protest Rashtrya Rifles camp pullout - dnaindia.com

:achu achu cough cough
Sorry im allergIC TO BULL SHYT.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

India has OCCUPIED Kashmir, endlessly killed and beaten innocent people and apparently they can talk about 'humanity?' They need half a million troops there just to keep it in order!

Buddy there are thousand of therads and endless discussion on this..still let me try once more -
(1)you saying India has occupied Kashmir? Indians know that Pakistan has occupied Kashmir.
(2)you say endessly killed innocents?? Indians know they have killed terrorists trying to infiltrate into our land with unscrupulous intentions and will keep killing in future..thats called Duty.

Death toll at the hands of Indian soldiers is about 50,000. Mass graves are still being found as long as they don't become subject to more cover-ups.

hhmm...I don't know about that figure in total but they just killed 6 more of these.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Buddy there are thousand of therads and endless discussion on this..still let me try once more -
(1)you saying India has occupied Kashmir? Indians know that Pakistan has occupied Kashmir.

Funny
There are no protests no HCR and UN reports nothing on ourside while on IOK everything is opposite.
World declares it disputed u imagine it my occuping its urs.

(2)you say endessly killed innocents?? Indians know they have killed terrorists trying to infiltrate into our land with unscrupulous intentions and will keep killing in future..thats called Duty.

Yup those 100000 were all infiltrators aneverything is hunky and dory....And its not urs its Kashmiris and wat they decide.

hhmm...I don't know about that figure in total but they just killed 6 more of these.

Shamefuless to be proud of killing Freedom fighter.

 

[karan.1970]

Starting to troll now that you have no answers?

No Agno.. I said there is no evidence shared..

BTW, when you use language like that, you justify the use of language by Pakistanis referencing the four soldiers killed fighting militants a few days ago as 'Indian Army dogs dying like the animals they are', which is 'happy news for those of us that oppose Indian occupation of kashmir'.

There is a reason why I said that the 'rhetoric' needs to be toned down.

Do you ask rhetoric to be toned down when it refers to TTP terrorists being killed. Dont you rejoice. Disputed or not, the sentiment in India on terrorists being killed in Kashmir is just the same.

The comparison you draw between a terrorist and an army man is sad but I know your arguement would be that my terrorist is your freedom fighter. So be it.. You can call martyred Indian army men what you like.. It will not change the way we think of these terrorists and certainly not the way we think of our men in khaki...It will definitely not dampen our joy on the death of these terrorists..

Let this be one of those issues where we agree to disagree...