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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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Answer this question:-

Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.

Its a pretty simple answer if u speak for majority of Indians and the answer is "NO". The country and its people have suffered numerous sacrifices/difficulties coz of the bone of contention "J&K" and its difficult to neglect those scars.

GOI might accept certain autonomy but can't accept Independent kashmir coz the government has to toe to people's wish....

But the situation might change if at all Pakistan grants freedom to occupied kashmir,& so does china, there can be change of views.

And u r completely wrong of intentions of capturing kashmir by GOI,past/present/future; all the mess that we are in today is a result of over ambitions on the other side of the border.
 
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Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.

Answer this question:-

Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.

Neither the people of India nor the GoI would ever allow an independent Kashmir. I wont go into the "accept" part as accepting it means it already exists. Though many people may realize the Kashmiris' demand they also know that it will never happen.

The reason is simple, India is a conglomerate of ethnicities and religious groups. One part breaks away, it prepares the ground for others to follow shaking the entire foundation that this country is built upon.
 
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Neither the people of India nor the GoI would ever allow an independent Kashmir. I wont go into the "accept" part as accepting it means it already exists. Though many people may realize the Kashmiris' demand they also know that it will never happen.

The reason is simple, India is a conglomerate of ethnicities and religious groups. One part breaks away, it prepares the ground for others to follow shaking the entire foundation that this country is built upon.

That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.

So bye-bye to peace then.
 
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That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.
A solution has to be there, which is acceptable and face saving for both govts. and the populace. Where neither loose land or the strategic stand, reinastated with several wars. Lot of discussion over this has happened in the Seven possible Solution thread, you might want to visit there.

From Indian standpoint the acceptable options are:
a) LoC as IB: we give over claim from Pakistani Kashmir, GB and northern areas and Pakistan gives up claim from the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.

b) status-quo with porus border: pre-condition of no Pakistani support to militancy.

c) Higher Autonomy for Jammu and Kashmir can be discussed

d) something like joint administration of Kashmir suggested during Musharraf - Vajpayee meet.

Since this is PDF, we should be more focussed on what govt. of Pakistan thinks and why has there been constant curb on saperatist voices in Pakistani administered Kashmir, Why has GB and Northern areas included into Pakistani mainstream with outsidered now settling in and permanently altering the demographics.

Also, when was Independent Kashmir ever officially promoted by Pakistan .


So bye-bye to peace then.
The misfortune of people born in the most beautiful region.

PS: you know even some of the PDF mods (Asim)and hyperactive pro independent Kashmir members (debong, who swears his relatives are militants) were not aware that UN resolution has no provision for Independent Kashmir, such has been the extent of misinformation spread by GoP.
 
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I don't think independence to Kashmir was any option, why this option is been used? The option should be like, want to join Pakistan, want to join india. Other options are only favoring western countries this is why they have done this survey, based on their own needs, wants/desires....
 
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Perhaps, people of Jammu and other non-Muslim dominated areas might not be so pro-Independent, but as the survey says Muslims in the area show nearly unanimous support for Independence.

Answer this question:-

Will the people of India accept an Independent Kashmir? Will the GoI accept an Independent Kashmir? I'm not questioning Pakistani and GoP view, I'm asking opinion from your side and let's say that Kashmir decides Independence and chooses to have good extensive relations with both India and Pakistan and decides not have any armed forces of its own. Will there ever be the decision or intention to capture Kashmir again from GoI? As I said earlier, your side only, do not bring GoP or Pakistanis in your reply.

After all that has happend in the last 60 odd years, the amount of lives, blood, sweat, money and energy wasted, I don't think Indians will just agree to let go of Kashmir for nothing.
On the other hand, Kashmir would have been an Independant country (like Bhutan or Nepal) or even have got merged with Pakistan, had not Pakistan tried to forcibly annex Kashmir in 1947. So, Pakistan is the prime reason for Kashimir loosing independance.
 
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That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.

So bye-bye to peace then.

Yes, I remember watching a show by Najam Sethi where he alluded to precisely the same point. To make the peace process move forward Pakistan has to be pragmatic and realize that India is not ready to give up Kashmir. Neither by force neither by diplomacy. India will keep on pushing resources into the battle zone but will tolerate neither a Pakistani Kashmir neither an independent Kashmir. 60 years of bloodshed is proof enough. The reason is what I mentioned in my earlier post. So its futile to fight over it thinking Kashmir will one day be a part of Pakistan.

I am not trying to say that Pakistan is the one that has to make all the concessions. India too has to realize that some sort of autonomous set-up has to be in place for everlasting peace. May be a joint governance system or may be converting LoC into a permanent boundary, but we have to move forward. And most importantly peace shouldn't be a hostage to the Kashmir situation. We can progress on many other issues without holding them hostage to the Kashmir issue.
 
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That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.

So bye-bye to peace then.

What is GoP's stand on Independant Kashmir?
I know GoP has all along been pushing for plebisite. But the UN plebisite doesn't give the option of independance, which most Kashmiri msulims want.
 
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Srinagar: The Jammu and Kashmir government has charged the team of doctors who carried out autopsies on two women in south Kashmir's Shopian town last May with fudging evidence to defame the police and the security forces.

"It had been found that the accused doctors fabricated and fudged the slides with an objective of defaming the police and security forces thereby violating Rule 3 of J&K Employees Act 1971," says a state government chargesheet against the doctors.

"The conduct and behaviour of the doctors had been prima facie found to have become cause of general strikes in the state and also resulted in the deaths of civilians," the chargesheet adds.

Two women, Nilofar Jan, 22, and her sister-in-law Asiya Jan, 17, were found dead by the side of a stream in Shopian town on May 29 last year, triggering a Valley-wide agitation with people alleging that the duo had been raped and subsequently murdered by the security forces.

The allegations had been triggered by the utterances of a lady doctor posted in Shopian town who carried out the autopsies of the dead women along with other local doctors.

After the case was handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), fresh autopsies were conducted and sustained interrogation of the local doctors revealed that scientific evidence about the deaths of the two women had been fudged to give credibility to the allegations that the women had been raped and then murdered.

The CBI investigations had confirmed that the two women had died due to drowning.

The state government based its chargesheet on the CBI findings.Shopian doctors charged with fudging to defame security forces
 
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Just to clarify that 35% of Jammu is muslim-mostly Gujjars and Paharis and 45% of Ladakh is muslim as well - mostly shias in Ladakh. Here too the majority sentiment is pro-India across religious divide.

In the valley which consists of about 3.5million to 4 million people there is considerable support for independence but this too is concentrated around the urban centers. The rural areas tend to be pro-Indian, possibly because they have suffered more from militants. But pro-Pakistani support is still at the fringes. Remember that the entire population of J&K in India is 11million so you can't ignore the rest of the population and listen to the valley alone.

The peacepoll survey in my view had a more novel method of developing consensus in which they asked the people a negative survey on a given set of options. That is what would be the MOST UNACCEPTABLE solution to them. The relevant question is shown below although other related questions were asked as well.


As can be seen the least resistance for IaK to the autonomy solution within India at 23% finding it unacceptable. Pertinent to note that this is the second least unacceptable solution to Muslims in IaK as well.
 
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That means no solution until Pakistan decides that demanding Kashmir has little benefit, and that perhaps might never happen.

So bye-bye to peace then.

Sir, no side today can be the clear winner in Kashmir per things as they stand today and as can be seen on near horizon. So we will have to identify middle grounds and a road map.

India will not relinquish our part of Kashmir. It cannot be done in any way - least of all by using terrorists. Past Pakistan strategy in this regard has only alienated Indian Kashmiris even further as no one wants violence in the valley. If violence was the way to go and if they wanted to join Pakistan then Gibraltar would have settled it or the terrorism being supported since the 90s would have definitely put this matter to bed.

Pakistan is not looking for and Independent Kashmir but something on the lines of AJK. If they wish was to honour the independence of Pakistani side of Kashmir was real from Pakistan then they would not have carved our Gilgit - Baltistan out of what originally was Kashmir.

Kashmiris want independence but unfortunately their beautiful abode is sitting on a very important geo-political position and their outright Independence is neither tenable nor viable.

What can be the way forward:

1. India agrees to a road map of growth of an autonomous Kashmir by agreeing to steps. Start with first reducing the military and increasing the police (this is already happening). Develop other organs of a democracy (as is already happening). Allow trans LOC trade, people movement, and make the border porous, finally allow Kashmiris to run their own state, a something like Vatican within Rome. The time frames of various steps can be basis agreement of India and the Indian Kashmiris.

2. For India to be encouraged to do the above, Pakistan needs to do all the above in their part of Kashmir with an agreement betwen Pakistan and the Pakistani Kashiris + also stop terrorist training camps, shut down LeT, JuD or whatever is the current morphosis of the "take Kashmir by force and military attrition" strategy.

3. As Jammu is part of the erstwhile Kashmir State, so is Gilgit Baltistan and also the part of Kashmir that Pakistan "gifted" to China. So any discussion has to keep in mind this whole geographical entity and there can be no picks and leaves.

4. The original population of Indian Kashmir was the majority muslims + minority Hindus. These Hindus that were driven away from the valley by the terrorists in the 90s need to be allowed to return to their homes and villages and they need to be included in the decision making process if there is any hope of a real solution. Again no picks and leaves, it has to be an all encompassing solution.

5. The Kashmiri separtists need to take a holiday (which they will have to after the support from Pakistan ceases because going by the past election turnouts, that is the only support that they have) and the true Kashmiri issues of growth, employment, prosperity, peace needs to be brought to the fore. With the agreed path of various steps finally providing autonomy to Kashmir, that should not be difficult. There has to be a way in which all are winners and the definitions of win needs to be re-thought.

6. So finally peace can be achieved by a plan over the next several years, which will via step needs commitment from India for increased autonomy and not territorial indepence. Pakistan needs to water down the dream of a Kashmir Vassal state or a part of Pakistan. They need to agree like India to finally provide their part of Kashmir (including Gilgit Baltistan) with similar autonomy over agreed time frame and steps and not territorial independence. China needs to return the part of Kashmir that they were gifted by Pakistan. And finally and most importantly, the Kashmiri leaders need to focus more on the growth of their region and the prosperity of the citizens and in the process achieve autonomy of rule limited only by territorial freedom.
 
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Both countries are not in favour of independent Kashmir. Both don't want to lose land area. Solution in my opinion is neither plebiscite nor independence from both countries. The only solution is to accept LOC as international boundary. That's the only way to bring peace in region.:pakistan:

Well said.

So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????

This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace :angel: ) tomorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan (and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.
 
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Well said.

So in order to ensure peace you can go to any extent. You will even give your home to ensure peace??????

This is not the solution. If we today agree to give Kashmir to india (to ensure peace :angel: ) tomorrow she will demand Gilgit-Baldistan (and so on). There is no way to satisfy indian hunger.

I am a little confused with that. What exactly do you have today that India is asking you to give?
 
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Just to clarify that 35% of Jammu is muslim-mostly Gujjars and Paharis and 45% of Ladakh is muslim as well - mostly shias in Ladakh. Here too the majority sentiment is pro-India across religious divide.

In the valley which consists of about 3.5million to 4 million people there is considerable support for independence. But pro-Pakistani support is still at the fringes. Remember that the entire population of J&K in India is 11million so you can't ignore the rest of the population and listen to the valley alone.

The peacepoll survey in my view had a more novel method of developing consensus in which they asked the people a negative survey on a given set of options. That is what would be the MOST UNACCEPTABLE solution to them. The relevant question is shown below although other related questions were asked as well.


As can be seen the least resistance for IaK to the autonomy solution within India at 23% finding it unacceptable. Pertinent to note that this is the second least unacceptable solution to Muslims in IaK as well.

You can grab your ear, how ever you like, nothing going to happen. If you guyz are so much sure that Kashmiries want to join India then be it, work on UN Resolution 1948, we would know where exactly kashmiri people interest lays. I will say all kashmiries want to join pakistan, you would say kashmir is part of india. Nothing going to happen. Just work on resolution, and follow what has been already accepted by India. or accept india has forcefully occupied kashmir without kashmiries will.
 
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