Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Hulk]

Sorry to see that propoganda wins in today's world. I have seen many intances where politicians have been proved wrong, in-fact there is hardly any when they are right, but people believe when it suits them. I saw the video when the doctor said she replaced swab with her own to prove rape, when one of them were actually virgin. So Pakistani money is doing good job in Kashmir. I guess Geleani might have paid the doctor.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The organisor are paid, they spread false information and gullible people fall for it. So that might mean that they hate India for none of their faults as masters are spreading false information.

Common people are generally not smart and can make into to believe what is not true. (e.g. No evidence of Indian involvement is provided to common public but they believe India is behined all attacks in Pakistan, managing perceptions by ISI, I can say and they have experience in India so they are doing it well in Pakistan)

I am all for referendum but given this information, I do not think it is right time, since lot of false propoganda is going on. I can see conspiracy against India here.

We can fix a timetable and do it, that is my take, but I do not think GOI listens to me and they are not going to do it.

ISI and GOP have waged a propoganda war against us.

First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism, then you say it isn't the right time because 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk', which implies that there is popular support for Pakistan and/or separatism.

The 'propaganda' excuse is nonsense - Indian has loads more television stations than does Pakistan, in fact the size of the Indian media in every form dwarfs that of Pakistan. India also has the advantage of directly interacting with the Kashmiris through development projects, travel, subsidies etc.

If despite all those advantages you claim that the common folk are 'brainwashed through propaganda', then perhaps it isn't propaganda that is responsible, but the fact that India refuses to let the Kashmiris exercise their right to self-determination as promised them repeatedly.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sorry to see that propoganda wins in today's world. I have seen many intances where politicians have been proved wrong, in-fact there is hardly any when they are right, but people believe when it suits them. I saw the video when the doctor said she replaced swab with her own to prove rape, when one of them were actually virgin. So Pakistani money is doing good job in Kashmir. I guess Geleani might have paid the doctor.

Don't troll and flame please - if you have evidence substantiating your POV that these protesters were paid, then provide that. Otherwise there are Kashmiris on this forum who are in favor of separating from India who would be rather insulted by your unsubstantiated allegation that these protesters and the people involved in the case were 'paid by Pakistan' to enact this drama.

I could equally well argue that given the thousands of Kashmiris massacred and buried in mass graves by the Indian security forces, the investigation by the CBI is just another in a long list of farcical endeavors by the GoI to hide its crimes and continue oppression of the Kashmiris and discredit the separatist movement.

 

[Hulk]

First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism, then you say it isn't the right time because 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk', which implies that there is popular support for Pakistan and/or separatism.

The 'propaganda' excuse is nonsense - Indian has loads more television stations than does Pakistan, in fact the size of the Indian media in every form dwarfs that of Pakistan. India also has the advantage of directly interacting with the Kashmiris through development projects, travel, subsidies etc.

If despite all those advantages you claim that the common folk are 'brainwashed through propaganda', then perhaps it isn't propaganda that is responsible, but the fact that India refuses to let the Kashmiris exercise their right to self-determination as promised them repeatedly.

where did I said that "First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism". I have always recognized that there is good amount of people who wanted to either seperate or be independent. I cannot say they are in majority as only referendum can tell that, but they could be in majority is what I am saying.

Media propoganda does not stage things, they can twist. They do not go and pay doctors to change the reports, so media is not counter to what Gelani is upto.

Also people are alway anti establishment, the prime reason why most government are voted out of power in next election. So it is easy to inflame feelings against establishment but on the contrary no amount of good work will being good feelings.

I am all for referendum but my point is valid, fixing rape is not ordinary thing.

 

[Hulk]

Don't troll and flame please - if you have evidence substantiating your POV that these protesters were paid, then provide that. Otherwise there are Kashmiris on this forum who are in favor of separating from India who would be rather insulted by your unsubstantiated allegation that these protesters and the people involved in the case were 'paid by Pakistan' to enact this drama.

I could equally well argue that given the thousands of Kashmiris massacred and buried in mass graves by the Indian security forces, the investigation by the CBI is just another in a long list of farcical endeavors by the GoI to hide its crimes and continue oppression of the Kashmiris and discredit the separatist movement.

I am neither trolling nor flamming, similar belifes are also expressed by Pakistani's on threads related to them. They are never warned, so if I express my feelings which does not suits you that is flaming. People have put conspiracy theories here and I believe on mine.

I have not met a single India Kashmiri on this forum.

 

[toxic_pus]

Of course - you know your argument was illogical. Funding from Pakistan for a movement has no implications on whether the movement itself has popular support or not.

Didn't say it isn't popular. What I had said was:

'[T]he so called 'popular' sentiment is actually a result of incitement by Pakistan and therefore, in reality, it is not a 'people's' movement, but merely a ruse to achieve Pakistan's irredentist ambitions...'

Was shifting the poles that necessary?

 

[Windjammer]

Let me put it this way, in our part of the world, corruption in the police force is rampant due to the lack of facilities and fortunes. An experiment was conducted on Islamabad police by giving them all the incentives possible, now some in the public complain that the same officials have become too strict in implementing the law.
If the Kashmiris were content with India, why would they need to accept
money from elsewhere and as you would put it, dance to the Pakistani tunes. They are even deprived of basic amenities such as mobile phone service and PTV viewing. Compare that with the other half.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Didn't say it isn't popular. What I had said was:

'[T]he so called 'popular' sentiment is actually a result of incitement by Pakistan and therefore, in reality, it is not a 'people's' movement, but merely a ruse to achieve Pakistan's irredentist ambitions...'

Was shifting the poles that necessary?

I am not shifting poles, you are obfuscating while essentially continuing to imply that the separatist sentiment is artificially created.

What does 'incitement from Pakistan' suggest after all? Does the mere fact that Pakistan exists and claims Kashmir 'incitement'? Of course it is - but we can't stop 'existing' or end our claim to Kashmir just because the occupying entity does not like it.

The Kashmiris have two choices, and for one party that claims their hearts and minds to actively support those campaigning for the right to self-determination as promised them is perfectly legitimate.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

where did I said that "First you say that there is no popular support in favor of Pakistan and/or in favor of separatism". I have always recognized that there is good amount of people who wanted to either seperate or be independent. I cannot say they are in majority as only referendum can tell that, but they could be in majority is what I am saying.

Media propoganda does not stage things, they can twist. They do not go and pay doctors to change the reports, so media is not counter to what Gelani is upto.

Also people are alway anti establishment, the prime reason why most government are voted out of power in next election. So it is easy to inflame feelings against establishment but on the contrary no amount of good work will being good feelings.

I am all for referendum but my point is valid, fixing rape is not ordinary thing.

I don't understand your POV - if pro-seperatism leaders exist then so do pro-India leaders, along with all the other machinery and resources of the Indian State to provide a counter narrative to the separatist one and win over the Kashmiri hearts and minds. The resources at the disposal of the Indian state dwarf anything Pakistan can put into it. Yet, according to you, 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk.

If propaganda from an entity that has a very limited presence in the territory and limited resources is responsible, then it essentially points to failures on the part of the Indian State, and perhaps to the fact that it is not 'propaganda' that is the cause for separatism but a genuine resentment of continued occupation and a denial of the right to self-determination. If the latter, then continuing to refuse to commit to self-determination and continuing occupation will only perpetuate that resentment, not alleviate it.

Being supportive of a referendum does not mean it has to be held today. In another thread we argued that the Indian government could with Pakistan agree to hold a referendum 10-15 years down the road provided certain benchmarks were met in terms of peace and stability in the Kashmir valley.

Such a move would be an enormous incentive to normalization in the territory, and regionally, and would provide additional space for India to win hearts and minds in Kashmir.

 

[Hulk]

I don't understand your POV - if pro-seperatism leaders exist then so do pro-India leaders, along with all the other machinery and resources of the Indian State to provide a counter narrative to the separatist one and win over the Kashmiri hearts and minds. The resources at the disposal of the Indian state dwarf anything Pakistan can put into it. Yet, according to you, 'propaganda has brainwashed the common folk.

If propaganda from an entity that has a very limited presence in the territory and limited resources is responsible, then it essentially points to failures on the part of the Indian State, and perhaps to the fact that it is not 'propaganda' that is the cause for separatism but a genuine resentment of continued occupation and a denial of the right to self-determination. If the latter, then continuing to refuse to commit to self-determination and continuing occupation will only perpetuate that resentment, not alleviate it.

Being supportive of a referendum does not mean it has to be held today. In another thread we argued that the Indian government could with Pakistan to hold a referendum 10-15 years down the road provided certain benchmarks were met in terms of peace and stability in the Kashmir valley.

Such a move would be an enormous incentive to normalization in the territory and regionally, and would provide additional space for India to win hearts and minds in Kashmir.

Like I said before, I am all for referendum with pre defined dates of doing things.

 

[bandit]

What does 'incitement from Pakistan' suggest after all? Does the mere fact that Pakistan exists and claims Kashmir 'incitement'? Of course it is - but we can't stop 'existing' or end our claim to Kashmir just because the occupying entity does not like it.

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end our claim

Incredible....What in the hell claim do you have over Kashmir,

The people vote for you-No.

The Maharaja accede to you-No.

These were the only two legal methods you could claim the territory of undivided India, Not some god given birth right being taught in schools.

As for the plebiscite-get Pakistani forces out, state and non-state, give the P-O-K under Indian administration and then talk or whatever about any Plebiscite for those are the rules laid down for plebiscite.

 

[Awesome]

The Propaganda excuse is like saying the Kashmiris are too stupid to vote, so we have to impose our decision on them.

How modest of them superior Indians.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

end our claim

Incredible....What in the hell claim do you have over Kashmir,

The people vote for you-No.

The Maharaja accede to you-No.

These were the only two legal methods you could claim the territory of undivided India, Not some god given birth right being taught in schools.

As for the plebiscite-get Pakistani forces out, state and non-state, give the P-O-K under Indian administration and then talk or whatever about any Plebiscite for those are the rules laid down for plebiscite.

Learn to be civil or ship out.

Read the UNSC resolutions, and India's acceptance of them, to figure out Pakistan's claim.

 

[Windjammer]

end our claim

Incredible....What in the hell claim do you have over Kashmir,

The people vote for you-No.

The Maharaja accede to you-No.

These were the only two legal methods you could claim the territory of undivided India, Not some god given birth right being taught in schools.

As for the plebiscite-get Pakistani forces out, state and non-state, give the P-O-K under Indian administration and then talk or whatever about any Plebiscite for those are the rules laid down for plebiscite.

Do they vote for you, ? BIG NO, instead it's observed as a black day.
Calling your self a democracy, ? UN resolutions imply more authenticy and credit than a money making Maharaja's stint.
After Pokhran, the Indian establishment did talk about Azad Kashmir, but as soon as the Chaghi Mountain turned white, BJP changed it's tune to "bilateraly resolving all outstanding issues, including Kashmir".
Basically, like a stray animal, you people need constant slapping around the ears to keep you in the line.

 

[bandit]

Learn to be civil or ship out.

Read the UNSC resolutions, and India's acceptance of them, to figure out Pakistan's claim.

India had a claim because it has a legal document signed by the ruling authority in the state, Pakistan has no claim until the plebiscite happens and the people choose it in the vote. Till then it is just meddling in foreign affairs.
UN resolution states that it is India that has to administer the plebiscite, recognizing its claim on the state, Pakistan is recognized as the aggressor and needs to get out before anything to proceed. That much is pretty clear from the texts and not your claims.