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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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Subsequent Governments execute their policies of the day as they deem fit, you haven't exactly made a discovery to that effect. Indian leaders likes of Indra Gandhi and her son paid with their lives for their deliverance. And one wonders what ideologies do the Nexel Maoist practice as they run havoc in over half of the Indian States.!!!???
I am not claiming a discovery nor am I demanding a Nobel for it.I was refuting the other guy's opinion that it was not pakistan who is responsible for producing the pakistani taliban which is now attacking your own cities and military establishments.
reg Naxals . pakistanis seem to be having many misconceptions.They do not run havoc in "half of the indian states".They are limited to just 4 states-chattisgarh,bengal,orissa and jharkhand.Many bastions of the Naxals have been cleaned up.They have lost credibility and support in their biggest bastions like andhra pradesh. Naxals once started off as revolutionaries but their activities at present is no where near being revolutionary.they are loosing support among tribals too.Saying they run havoc in half the staes would be like saying TTP controlls the whole of pakistan.;)
 
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It is really disappointing when your opponent doesn't give you a patient reading. Quite frankly, it is irritating.

You have built your case on the assumption that I am talking of 'troop withdrawal'. I have not. Read again. My point was, and continues to be, on withdrawal of 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens'. Since UNSC resolutions make a clear distinction between 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens' and Pakistani army, there is no scope for one to confuse Pakistani army as being referred to as 'tribesmen and Pakistani citizens'. The later group consisted of the infiltrators - in case you are wondering.

So no. You haven't debunked anything. You have simply propped up a strawman and then merrily flogged it to death.

My question continues to be unanswered: What prevented Pakistan from withdrawing the 'tribesmen' and its 'citizens'?

One more thing. Its Owen Dixon and not Dixit. Rest assured I know exactly which part of the report you are referring to. I however doubt if you are aware of the context of that part of the report.

Hogwash - you need to actually pay better attention to the UNSC resolutions:

PART II


TRUCE AGREEMENT


Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.

1. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.


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As you can clearly see above, the withdrawal of the Tribesmen (whose presence in J&K any more I am not aware of) was also contingent on the tripartite negotiations mentioned.

And Owen Dixon's report does lay the blame on India's doorstep, and that position is in fact validated by Indian analysts as well, who try to justify that obstructionism by arguing that any thing aside from the Indian position of a unilateral, unconditional withdrawal by Pakistan would be tantamount to 'rewarding' Pakistani aggression.
 
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Pakistan has all rights to settle the Kashmir dispute. If they wish to do so diplomatically and peacefully as GoP has agreed to based on numerous treaties it can do so. Otherwise, if it feels the need, it can go ahead and revoke the treaties and then attack with its army or militias. But still this would be a war to "protect its interests" so to speak, not a Jihad. Wether it uses "Jihadi" groups or not this is the fact of the matter.

And what responsibility do you place on India to in some way acknowledge and implement the rights given the Kashmiris (and accepted by the GoI at the time) of exercising self-determination to determine which nation they wish to be a part of?

Pakistan is not the nation violating its commitment of allowing the Kashmiris the choice to determine their future in a UN managed plebiscite.
 
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Why not have a break down of Child Labors, Prostitution, Slum dwellers and your high profile call centers, where Hindu priests have to do regular rounds to remind young workers of the moral values. Basically you people will make a song and dance on just about everything and end up proving just what the world already knows.
Child labour, prostitution and slums are not the effects of concious state policy.They exist because of mis-implementation or non-implementation of state policy.And hindu priests doing rounds???//?????wtf this definitely doesn't happen here .You are misinformed.
If you find such videos so amusing ,I will send you manny more.But just to shatter your little bubble such vids:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: never make it to any broadcasting media.
 
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SRINAGAR: A human rights group in Indian-administered Kashmir urged authorities on Wednesday to launch a probe into 2,700 unmarked graves of people believed to have died as a result of the region’s revolt against Indian rule.

The International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice (IPT) has in the past three years uncovered the unidentified bodies buried in villages near Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

The independent Srinagar-based group, which calculates 8,000 people have gone missing in the 20-year separatist insurgency, released a report entitled ‘Buried Evidence’ documenting the ‘unknown, unmarked, and mass graves’ containing at least 2,900 bodies.

About 180 graves held two or more bodies, said the report, which surveyed 55 villages through interviews with gravediggers, graveyard managers and residents, and first information reports filed by the police.

‘These graves include bodies of extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions, as well as massacres committed by the Indian military and paramilitary forces,’ the IPT said.

‘The Government of India and the Government of Jammu and Kashmir must commit to, and enable, independent and transparent investigations into unknown, unmarked and mass graves,’ it urged.

International human rights groups have in the past called for a probe into whether the unmarked graves held bodies of civilians who have ‘disappeared’ as Indian security forces struggle to contain the Muslim-majority region’s revolt.

A police officer who spoke on condition of anonymity said most of the bodies were likely those of militants killed in fighting with Indian forces.

Last year police admitted there were more than 200 unmarked graves in one location but insisted they contained dead rebels and not civilians.

Police said it was not possible to identify every militant killed during gunbattles in Indian-administered Kashmir.

The IPT report said that more than 8,000 people have gone missing in the region, mostly after their arrest by Indian security personnel.

Indian officials contend many of the missing had crossed over to Pakistan to join the insurgents.

The report also examined the deaths of 50 ‘militants’ killed during shoot-outs with security forces, and concluded 47 of the dead were civilians.

DAWN.COM | World | Rights group urges probe into unmarked Kashmir graves
 
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Kashmiris want the freedom because of their Genocide which is being calculatedly done by Indian Army Since 1947.

Kashmir with Pakistan or Liberated both conditions are acceptable to Kashmiris.

Bhooka nanga Hindustan --- Jaan say piyara Pakistan
Kashmir Baney ga Pakistan



:china::pakistan:
 
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Might is right? Funny, why didn't the US just let Saddam keep Kuwait then? Or for that matter why did the UNSC pass resolutions after Israeli victories over Arabs indicating that the borders of Israel should remain restricted to those that existed in 1967?
Might is right, there you have it. Pakistan would have absorbed kashmir by now if it had military superiority. You tried numerous times falsely believing in your tactical and qualitative superiority/might, but failed!
Hence unilateral Indian annexation of J&K is illegal. Were the accession not conditional to a plebiscite, as indicated by Mountbatten and the Indian leadership, your point would have validity.
Conditions to be satisfied include Pakistan doing its part first. Pakistan had no right to intervene in Kashmir (in a vain attempt to annex it) in the first place, when the instrument of accession was singed with India and not Pakistan! Let go of kashmir, India may then conduct a referendum.
The 'limbo' the people of GB and AK find themselves in is entirely India's fault - for violating its commitment to the UNSC resolutions and not allowing a plebiscite to take place, or finding one excuse or another to not engage consistently in negotiations to resolve the dispute bilaterally.
the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops deployed to quell the Kashmiri separatism and deny them the right to plebiscite under the UNSC resolutions is more than ample evidence that Pakistan's concerns over 'Kashmiri plight' are legitemate and valid."
Funny that you say this, for Pakistan in the first place is responsible for creating a mess in Kashmir.
Causality - Pakistani interference in kashmir and pushing militants in the valley - led to India flooding the territory with Indian troops. So much for moral support!
If the Kashmiris choose to give up armed struggle for a political one, that is their choice - that does not mean the argument in favor of separatism goes away, nor does it change the fact that India continues to deny the people of J&K the freedom and their right to determine their destiny.
Right from the horse's mouth. You contradict your own statement. Its Kashmiris choice that they gave up arms. Why then is Pakistan turning a blind eye to groups which support and push militants in the area? Talk about morals again.
Kashmiris are willing to take part in a political process within Indian constitution's framework. Now why is Pakistan meddling with this?
It does not matter what India 'thinks' - as I often point out, just because India might decide to 'think' that California and Texas belong to it and unilaterally amends its constitution to declare them Indian States does not mean India actually has any legal standing on the issue.
Seriously? That's a very lame argument coming from you. Dont bring it up in any further discussions for very obvious reasons. Lame lame!
The fact is that India agreed that the territory was disputed, it agreed that a plebiscite would determine J&K's final status, and it agreed to the UNSC resolutions.
The freedom to choose which nation they wish to be a part of - a freedom denied them by India. Its not that hard to understand.
UNSC resolutions also demand certain concessions from Pakistan before India can implement the plebiscite. Do your part first, then talk.
The rights Pakistan affords the people of GB and AK have nothing to do with annexation - annexation would be the attempt to constitutionally declare and asorb those territories as a part of Pakistan. The Pakistani constitution clearly leaves final status pending on the results of the UNSC plebiscite - hence your and the author's argument of 'annexation' is bunk.
So Pakistan lets the people from G-B areas live in a state of suspended nationality? How very supportive! Now which is better - a promising future under Indian citizenship or ......
 
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I am not claiming a discovery nor am I demanding a Nobel for it.I was refuting the other guy's opinion that it was not pakistan who is responsible for producing the pakistani taliban which is now attacking your own cities and military establishments.
reg Naxals . pakistanis seem to be having many misconceptions.They do not run havoc in "half of the indian states".They are limited to just 4 states-chattisgarh,bengal,orissa and jharkhand.Many bastions of the Naxals have been cleaned up.They have lost credibility and support in their biggest bastions like andhra pradesh. Naxals once started off as revolutionaries but their activities at present is no where near being revolutionary.they are loosing support among tribals too.Saying they run havoc in half the staes would be like saying TTP controlls the whole of pakistan.;)
First of all stop acting like a kid in a candy shop and have the sense to Quote as to who you are addressing.
The Sunday Telegraph (London) recently carried out a full page article on the extent of Naxals insurgency detailing that it has spread to 23 Indian States, even the Indian PM is on record for accepting that Maoist present the biggest threat to the Indian State hood. Are you gloating we have misconceptions, while your rant on TTP should be acknowledged. India may be a big country and all troubles seldom leak out but bombing and derailing trains and raids on Police stations is almost a daily event to the extent that even your leaders are accusing China for flaming the movement.
 
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Child labour, prostitution and slums are not the effects of concious state policy.They exist because of mis-implementation or non-implementation of state policy.And hindu priests doing rounds???//?????wtf this definitely doesn't happen here .You are misinformed.
If you find such videos so amusing ,I will send you manny more.But just to shatter your little bubble such vids:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: never make it to any broadcasting media.
And even though they tarnish the image of the country, they none the less generate the economy hence the Indian authorities are not interested in eradicating them. Oh if it's not misconception, it's misinformation, hell the British media is loosing all it's credibility.
Knock your self out with your video collection and how far such material ascends is not the question, the point is the mind set of your country fellows hence they will literally act like D**** to get attention.
 
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After looking all these post, i would say India is huge mess of human being. Its kinda place where almost one and half billion people confined. And no one want to touch or enter this bee nest. Nobody can solve this issue of human population burst. Pakistani should stay in their orbit and learn and control population and make their living better.Pakistan has much better chances to explore new horizon compare to Indians.
As far as ummah leadership, Pakistan is leader of the pack. Because Pak armed forces are called any type of situation in muslim world. Still all muslim countries prefer to send their armed forces official for training in Pak institutions.
Pak armed forces serving in Middle East to Indonesia. From East Africa to West Africa.
 
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Might is right, there you have it.
Being glib does not validate your argument any. Regurgitating a phrase does not make it an internatioanlly accepted treaty as I pointed out. Israeli settlements in occupied territory continue to be illegal under international law for a reason.
Pakistan would have absorbed kashmir by now if it had military superiority. You tried numerous times falsely believing in your tactical and qualitative superiority/might, but failed!
We would have absorbed it after having the UN hold a plebiscite there and if it was in our favor, since Pakistanis at least are not afraid of letting the Kashmiris express their opinion in such a plebiscite.
Conditions to be satisfied include Pakistan doing its part first. Pakistan had no right to intervene in Kashmir (in a vain attempt to annex it) in the first place, when the instrument of accession was singed with India and not Pakistan! Let go of kashmir, India may then conduct a referendum.
Please see my responses to Toxic-Pus above - this argument of Pakistan unilaterally satisfying conditions has been clearly shown to be Indian propaganda - creating conditions conducive to a plebiscite in Kashmir was to be arrived at through a consultative process, as mentioned in the UNSC resolutions.
Funny that you say this, for Pakistan in the first place is responsible for creating a mess in Kashmir.
Causality - Pakistani interference in kashmir and pushing militants in the valley - led to India flooding the territory with Indian troops. So much for moral support!
No - the responsibility lies with the party that reneged on its commitment (of holding a plebiscite to determine final status) to the UNSC resolutions, to the international community, to Pakistan and most importantly to the Kashmiri people, and unilaterally and illegally annexed the section of J&K under its control.

Right from the horse's mouth. You contradict your own statement. Its Kashmiris choice that they gave up arms. Why then is Pakistan turning a blind eye to groups which support and push militants in the area? Talk about morals again.
Kashmiris are willing to take part in a political process within Indian constitution's framework. Now why is Pakistan meddling with this?
I did not contradict myself at all - you are insisting on viewing the situation as 'black or white'. The decision to pursue a political vs a violent path does not indicate that the desire for separatism is gone - it would be akin to suggesting that just because the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and the Palestinians there have chosen to renounce an approach based on violence (unlike Hamas in Gaza, though they too have reduced violence significantly) that the Palestinians somehow now want to live like they are. Just because the Palestinians take part in a political process as an occupied people does not mean they want the status quo to continue - participation in the political process is a means to address daily needs such as socio-economic development etc.

Elections do not substitute for a plebiscite.

Heck, Indians themselves don't buy into this bunk you are selling since they continue to oppose giving Kashmiri's their right to self-determination out of fear that the Kashmiris will choose Pakistan.

As for Pakistan - while the desire to pursue a violent solution to Indian occupation was high Pakistan supported the Kashmiris in that struggle, but to argue that Pakistan continues to do so is the height of ignorance given the record low levels of violence and infiltration (you cannot reduce it 100% given the terrain) and the fact that the GoI has already withdrawn 15,000 troops and Chidambaram today talked of possibly significantly further reducing troops because of the peace there.
Seriously? That's a very lame argument coming from you. Dont bring it up in any further discussions for very obvious reasons. Lame lame!
:lol: Don't be childish. Either refute the argument or don't. The position espoused by many Indians that Kashmir is legally theirs simply because the Indian constitution says so is completely akin to the example of India trying to annex California and Texas by amending its constitution to declare them Indian states. Its an absurd argument on your part.

UNSC resolutions also demand certain concessions from Pakistan before India can implement the plebiscite. Do your part first, then talk.
Hogwash and Indian propaganda as pointed out to Toxic Pus - please read through my responses to him.
So Pakistan lets the people from G-B areas live in a state of suspended nationality? How very supportive! Now which is better - a promising future under Indian citizenship or ......
As long as they receive proper governance and avail of all the rights that Pakistanis have and do not experience any hardship (they might be able to travel under a Pakistani passport, even if they are not Pakistani citizens officially), there should be no hardship the people of G-B and AK have to bear.

It is better to give them all the rights and privileges of being a citizen, and opportunities at good governance, while also not illegally annexing the territory, than to illegally occupy and annex them as India has done, in violation of its commitment to the Kashmiris and others.
 
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Peace, stability in South Asia cannot materialize without resolving Kashmir dispute: Gilani


LONDON, Dec 2 (APP): Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Wednesday said peace and stability in the region cannot materialize unless the lingering dispute of Kashmir is resolved peacefully through negotiations. He said Pakistan desires peaceful relations with India and desires that the stalled Composite Dialogue. “For the elimination of terrorism, regional cooperation was vital,” Gilani told a large gathering of Pakistani community members here at a local hotel, soon after his arrival in the British capital where he is slated to hold talks with its leaders.

He mentioned the successful military operations carried out in Swat and Malakand against terrorists and said the operation in South Waziristan was also proceeding with success.

The Prime Minister said the entire nation stood behind the government in its move to eradicate militants.

Prime Minister Gilani said Baitullah Mahsood, who was responsible for the assassination of Shaheed Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto, has also been killed during the successful military operation.

He paid tribute to the residents of Malakand who left their homes for the country’s sake and hoped that FATA’s affected persons would also return to their homes soon.

The Prime Minister appreciated the expatriate Pakistani community for their generous donations for PM’s Fund for Swat and Malakand.
He however asked them for a collective policy rather than individual one by adopting a village in Swat, Malakand and FATA and then fulfill their basic necessities.

The Prime Minister said at the end of the counter-terrorism operation in FATA, the government would announce a reform package on the pattern of the one for Gilgit Baltistan.

He said the military operation was a success and the government was trying to bring the people there into the main stream by providing the people there all basic facilities of health, education, besides providing them vocational training.

Gilani said today Pakistan was confronting with several issues including national security, economy and social welfare and stressed the need to improve them for a smooth journey to development and prosperity.

He said the government was paying due focus on resolving these issues and would utilize all resources in this regard.

He also mentioned the seriousness of the government to work for the rights of the people of Balochistan and assured that their due rights will be given to them as it was their basic right.

Gilani said in democracy all political parties were free to propagate their manifestoes, however said that nobody would be allowed to profess hatred, ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

He said the constitution of 1973 will be restored in its original form and democracy will be further strengthened.
“1973 Constitution was given by Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and we will restore it.”

The Prime Minister apprised the Pakistani community of the progress made by country in different areas and said the government has successfully averted the economic crisis through its prudent policies. He said the foreign exchange reserves now stand at 14.7 billion dollars.

He said the political reconciliation was the hallmark of the government and for the first time the two addresses of the president to the parliament were held without any disturbance.

Gilani said the world realized Pakistan’s contribution for the war against terrorism and hoped that the pledges made by Friends of Democratic Pakistan worth US $ 5.24 billion, would be fulfilled soon.

He said the government enjoyed the mandate of masses and was working on the policy of reconciliation for the sovereignty of parliament.

The Prime Minister mentioned that for the first time, Leader of the Opposition had been made Chairman Public Accounts Committee to ensure accountability on democratic terms.

Prime Minister Gilani asked the Pakistani community abroad to invest in Pakistan’s energy, education and Information Technology sectors and assured them that their investment would be safe in Pakistan.

He mentioned different measures taken for poverty reduction and for the encouragement of domestic and international investment including the creation of special economic zones and introducing new investment schemes.

Gilani said in purview of the government’s petroleum policy, the British Petroleum company had made an investment of 30 million dollar in Pakistan.

He said under the Benazir Bhutto Income Support Program, 2.4 million households were being provided economic assistance, adding other areas including FATA, Northern Areas, Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Chitral, North and South Waziristan, Kohistan and Tharparker would also benefit from the scheme.

The Prime Minister said the government would resolve on priority basis the problems of Pakistani community in UK including property issues, problems of minorities, insufficient services of High Commission and immigration related issues.

He said the government was also seriously considering the longstanding demand of expatriates for casting the vote during election.

He recalled that Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto and Begum Nusrat Bhutto had spent their exile days in London with dignity and activism, and appreciated the services of Pakistan Peoples Party’s workers there who stood beside them in the journey to democracy.

Earlier Shah Mahmood Qureshi said what the people see about Pakistan on television was not the real face of the country and it was the doing of only a handful of people who do not want to see the country prosper.

He recalled his meeting with the British Foreign Minister David Miliband who too wants to seek the assistance of the Pakistani community and British Pakistanis who wish to integrate into their new home, while also serve as a bridge between the two countries.

He also asked them to help remove the misperceptions about Pakistan in Britain and vice versa. He said on Dec 11 a Pakistan-America foundation was being inaugurated in New York which will help bridge the two communities.

Ambassador of Pakistan to the United Kingdom Wajid Shamsul Hassan said the Pakistan Peoples Party has always rendered numerous sacrifices for strengthening of the democracy.
 
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And what responsibility do you place on India to in some way acknowledge and implement the rights given the Kashmiris (and accepted by the GoI at the time) of exercising self-determination to determine which nation they wish to be a part of?

Pakistan is not the nation violating its commitment of allowing the Kashmiris the choice to determine their future in a UN managed plebiscite.

Ofcourse India has an obligation to resolve the Kashmir issue. We will only be deluding ourselves if we say there is NO problem there. And the same applies to GoP, it has to have a realistic appraisal of the situation on the ground and present that to the Pakistani people i.e. that pro-independance sentiment is the most prominent sentiment not pro-pakistani and that all local militant groups like JKLF have given up arms.

What I am saying is that there should be no support for "non-state" actors who commit violence in the name of Islam, logistically, morally or militarily. And espicially no support from a Jihad point of view. These are counter-productive and against the overwhelming desire of the Kashmiri people who do not want violence, particularly from "Islamic" militant groups like Hizb and LeT that have afterall killed more muslim civilians opposed to their point of view than security personnel.

And post 1995, GoI has considerably learned from its mistakes. Abuses were checked and prosecuted. free and fair elections were conducted. And unlike in the GB polls resently were non of the regional parties like GBDA got any seats, politics in J&K is dominated by the National Conference and PDP both of which are regional parties. Besides, any sepratist leader can go ahead and contest elections win and resign in protest to proove their popularity. But they wont because they know they won't get popular mandate. Infact some have tried and lost.
Kashmiri separatist leader to contest India election | World | Reuters


Moreover, both major parties in India, the BJP as well as the Congress have focussed on resolving the kashmir dispute along with Musharraf, so there is some attempt to resolve there. You can't say that India is not doing anything to resolve the dispute.
Currently there is renewed focus and hopefully this time we will see some solid results. The resolution will not make ALL groups happy ofcourse, but if the majority of the Kashmiri people support it, the rest will have to live with it.

I suggest you do read through the Kashmir conflict report on www.peacepolls.org . That will give you a better perspective of why the plebescite is not the solution, espicially since what the sepratists want is Independance, and the UNSC resolutions have no provision for that. I just quote a part of the conclusions here
Remarkably, when it came to the critical issues of the constitution the top priority (from a list of 29) was 'J and K should be a secular state' at 68% 'essential or desirable'. And although it will come as no surprise that 63% of Muslims in the Kashmir Valley reject the constitutional status quo of remaining with India as 'totally unacceptable' 69% of that same population also considered a merger with Pakistan to be 'totally unacceptable'. So a UN plebiscite that is limited to these two options (a priority for Muslims at 71% 'essential or desirable') can not solve the problem of Kashmir. The only way forward is negotiation and that is what the people want. Not the corrupt street politics of sectarian division and communal strife.

Note this is only muslims in Kashmir valley here. Add the Hindu Pandits as well and the muslims from Jammu and Ladakh as well as non-muslims there who are all pro-Indian and the statistics will change further.
 
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Ejaz, what the Kashmiris likely want more than anything else is to be out of limbo and not have their land divided.

A plebiscite allowing them to choose between the two options at least removes one major hurdle, possibly unites them and ends that 'state of limbo'.

I agree with you on rejecting violence before such a solution is implemented, which is why on the 'Kashmir solutions' thread you actually had some Indians and many Pakistanis supporting the idea that the two nations agree to hold a plebiscite in at least the AK & Kashmir parts of J&K after a period of ten years in which violence was rejected and the two nations made their case. Yet such a sensible solution continues to find few takers amongst Indians and definitely no traction with the Indian government.

If India really believes in the strength of its ideals and its 'secularism' and pluralism, then it should let those ideals do the talking and allow Kashmiris to make that choice.

Pakistanis appear to have far more confidence in the ideology of their nation winning over the Kashmiris than Indians do in theirs.

The ball is in India's court on this issue - as a Pakistani I have little faith in India's intentions after years of procrastination and delays, it is time India took some initiative and engaged with Pakistan on the dispute instead of repeating the age old mantra of 'status quo'.
 
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