Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[foxbat]

thanks your Impressiveness,

we Pakistanis never claimed to be proud of our democratic past and present. But looking at how the biggest hypocrisy ( read democracy) managed to do to the people like Sikhs, Naxils, Christians, Muslims, Dalits.. the only word that springs to mind is “Ironic”

your self pompous ego has gone past the busting point but that gas of false sense of superiority is continuously being inhaled.

As your Holiness might note that we Pakistanis might not know much about democracy as your royal highness does but one thing is for sure. We will keep supporting the rights of Kashmiris the same right that our forefathers exercised and gave us an independent state.

The very title of the post is vindicating Pakistani stance and the Kashmiri struggle. Its against a forced military occupation of India by Kasmiris in the form of political & armed struggle.

Thanks for going through the trouble of reading my posts. I hope my words are not that disturbing to your royal backside much.

I will not jump in between you and Gubbi, but the title of this post actually is a representation of lack of democracy (representative of love for dictatorship in Pakistan? )on this forum. All you need to do is to jump to the 1st post of the thread to know why..

 

[Xeric]

Dude, for a TT, instead of posting stupid "smart aleck" comments, for a mature discussion's sake why dont you refute the pov? I may be a novice when it comes to such matters, so educate me as to why it may be wrong, for all that TT tag of yours stands for!

Hey thickhead had your purpose not been trolling i must have 'educated' you in such a way that you'd owe your understanding to me for ever, but then replying to a stupid pov twice doesnt correct the stupidity.

i would have given you some credit had you learnt something from the replies i made to your 'mascot', but then you decided just to agree with the DUDE!!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Going out on a limb here.. Since we have broached the topic of Luxemburg, Belgium and Scotland.. none of which is disputed, what are your views on Balochistan? Do they deserve the same consideration..??

the logic of size and location was brought up hence I had to clarify

very valid point my dear. unlike your self I wont bypass it or dismiss it
yes there are grievances but they were originally against the Baloch Tribal chieftains that were selected undisputed from their seats because no one dared to oppose them.

It was their tyrannical rule and tribal customs, dealing with dissidents, the workers in the mines that actually started it was the accused who very smartly picked up the same banner and shifted it against the rest of the Balochi population. Although it was mainly against the lack of infrastructure.

I went at length about the Baloch demographics. Where as the insurgency in Balochistan is concerned it is within 2 tribes Bugthis and Marris who are leading the insurgency and they punishing the rest of the Baloch population too Resulting in Baloch exedus in rest of Pakistan.

if you want to continue that discussion then lets go to the right thread about Balochistan.

Kashmir my dear, is a different story. Like the title suggests. Its Kashmiri people vs. the Indian occupation forces.

 

[gubbi]

Hey thickhead had your purpose not been trolling i must have 'educated' you in such a way that you'd owe your understanding to me for ever, but then replying to a stupid pov twice doesnt correct the stupidity.

i would have given you some credit had you learnt something from the replies i made to your 'mascot', but then you decided just to agree with the DUDE!!

He made sense. You didnt. Mr TT or whatever! You never replied any sensible pov. else I would have agreed with you.

As for name calling, I pity you.

 

[foxbat]

the logic of size and location was brought up hence I had to clarify

very valid point my dear. unlike your self I wont bypass it or dismiss it
yes there are grievances but they were originally against the Baloch Tribal chieftains that were selected undisputed from their seats because no one dared to oppose them.

It was their tyrannical rule and tribal customs, dealing with dissidents, the workers in the mines that actually started it was the accused who very smartly picked up the same banner and shifted it against the rest of the Balochi population. Although it was mainly against the lack of infrastructure.

I went at length about the Baloch demographics. Where as the insurgency in Balochistan is concerned it is within 2 tribes Bugthis and Marris who are leading the insurgency and they punishing the rest of the Baloch population too Resulting in Baloch exedus in rest of Pakistan.

if you want to continue that discussion then lets go to the right thread about Balochistan.

Kashmir my dear, is a different story. Like the title suggests. Its Kashmiri people vs. the Indian occupation forces.

Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up.

I agree that Balochistan and Kashmir are different in nature but you will never find 2 exact same situations. The glaring similarity is that in both situations, there is a subset of the population that wants to seccede from the union and in both cases armed forces are being used by the union against those separatists. And in both cases, the union blames the neighbour for formenting the separatist fires..

Rest, we can take up in the right thread.

 

[Xeric]

Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up.

So the purpose was to flame.

 

[gubbi]

thanks your Impressiveness,

we Pakistanis never claimed to be proud of our democratic past and present. But looking at how the biggest hypocrisy ( read democracy) managed to do to the people like Sikhs, Naxils, Christians, Muslims, Dalits.. the only word that springs to mind is “Ironic”

your self pompous ego has gone past the busting point but that gas of false sense of superiority is continuously being inhaled.

As your Holiness might note that we Pakistanis might not know much about democracy as your royal highness does but one thing is for sure. We will keep supporting the rights of Kashmiris the same right that our forefathers exercised and gave us an independent state.

The very title of the post is vindicating Pakistani stance and the Kashmiri struggle. Its against a forced military occupation of India by Kasmiris in the form of political & armed struggle.

Thank you for all the aggrandized words of 'honor'. I see its a habit with certain people for aggrandizing words.

Democracy is not perfect but its the best out there. No one has denied the atrocities that have occurred in the name of religion in India and people are growing out of that immaturity. (Btw, Naxals have been tagged as terrorists, so your point stands invalidated). The lame attempt at bringing in Sikh's into the picture or dalits speaks volumes about your basic understanding of Indian society.

Let me tell you something. India is NOT perfect. We do not claim to be perfect. Show me one post where Indians claims to be perfect. And yet the jostling, messy, disagreeing mass of people that is India is surging ahead in a single direction of prosperity. That is what stands us apart from many others! That is what is meant by Unity in Diversity. A fact that no matter how much you people rake your brains over, will never comprehend!

That being said, I find it funny that people who have no experience of such a democracy, or introspection or raised on a constitution whcih openly discriminates against fellow humans on the basis of faith or origin tend to give "advice" about democracy, human rights and what not. The word for that, as described by any English dictionary, is Hypocrisy.

As for the tile, it may stand for Pakistan's pov. Who cares? Those 'freedom fighters' will all get dispatched to jahanaam, asap!

 

[KS]

Reading through the comments in any thread within Kashmir forum you see a common theme and this thread is not an exception

Indian commentators will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling.

In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.

Pakistani contributors although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India.

Conclusion . Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.

Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the born right of freedom of a human which is the very essence of modern democracy. They will also keep shaking the Indian conscious for this forced & unjust occupation.

And so the debate will go on. I only hope that we as 2 neighbours are able to resolve it amicably according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and not let an outsider monkey to decide it for us because we both will loose out along with the Kashmiris.[/COLOR]

Hi,

Please dont bring in Democracy into this.It only shows how much (or little) you know about Indian Democracy and what are the fundamental Rights guarenteed by the constitution on which this Democracy is based upon.

 

[foxbat]

Thanks for the reply. I was so scared that my head would get bitten off, looking at a lot of reactions whenever Balochistan topic is brought up.

So the purpose was to flame.

No it was not. Irfan was being extremely nice and civilized in the discussion, so I took a chance on instinct.

Would have not done that with you sir...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

We keep talking about Mumbai 26/11 in the context of Kashmir. It is interesting to note that all 10 terrorists were Pakistanis. They were NOT Kashmiris and certainly not Indian Kashmiris.

if anything, it's bharat which is trying to draw parallels. If your media stories are to be believed, the defunct LeT and the JuD were involved and/or conspirators of the 26/11 drama. If you know anything about those entities, you would know that among their objectives is highlighting atrocities in Kashmir as well as promoting resistance against indian occupation of Kashmir ---through charitable but also ''other'' means

LeT (if still existing) is a Kashmiri group oriented purely on Kashmir, though it also has a pan-Islamist agenda in South Asia subcontinent.

Therefore it is silly and quite naiive for certain armchair pundits to deduce that there is no linkage between occupied Kashmir and the 26/11 attacks.

My point is that we should not draw equivalences or attribute cause-and-effect to the wrong causes. Mumbai 26/11 happened due to Pakistani terrorist strategy and was supported by the Pakistani army.

purely your own speculation....nobody is guilty until proven innocent; thing work the opposite way unless you are not very democratic or civilized

The places (as confirmed by Pakistan's Dawn TV) from where the attackers belonged were Faridkot, Dera Ismail Khan, Multan, Okara, Narowal, Faisalabad, Arifwalla, Dipalpur Taluk. These are all areas that fall squarely within Pakistan.

lovely areas indeed....fine spectrum and array of people from those areas. Like anywhere else in the world, surely they have a few bad apples. Unfortunately, we still have little information on those attackers and I don't think we'll ever know their true identities or from whom they were taking orders.


both sides will never trust eachother's media, so no need to make larger "non-issues" out of some existing issues

So saying that if Kashmir is not solved, more "Mumbais" will happen is a threat with a Pakistani dimension, nothing to do with Kashmir as such.

I actually agree with the first part, everything after the comma not so much.

best path is to solve the Kashmir issue in a fair manner that suits Kashmiri peoples....Pakistan Nation would always be ready to discuss, once the accusations, garbled chatter, etc. come to an end and india is emotionally and mentally ready to engage in such.

 

[Minimalist]

Reading through the comments in any thread within Kashmir forum you see a common theme and this thread is not an exception

Indian commentators will stress about sovereignty and integrity of India. They will dismiss right of people. They will justify the crackdown on Kashmiris. They will conveniently bypass the issue of human rights. They will lambaste the UN and call it irrelevant and its resolutions dated. More or less mimicking the attitude of President Bush (forgetting that India has a long way to go before becoming a sole super power like USA). The discussion will be deliberately derailed and lead to non-serious and off topic issues and even outright trolling.

In any other thread or occasion, the Indians will start their sentence with their beloved democracy, the mantra of non-violence of Gandhi, criticising other countries specially China & Pakistan in particular for their human rights record etc. but there will be criminal silence or outright dismissal when the word Kashmir will be mentioned.

Pakistani contributors although being the citizens of a country where democracy hardly found its roots would highlight the plight of the Kashmiris. point out the brutalities of the Indian occupation forces. Question the justification of having over a million security personal if the uprising is really only foreign instigated as claimed by India.

Conclusion . Indians despite being the citizens of democracy will continue to ignore the Kashmri right of self determination. Which was very basis of the partition agreed upon Hindu & Muslim leadership with their former colonial masters.

Pakistanis will continue to remind them about the born right of freedom of a human which is the very essence of modern democracy. They will also keep shaking the Indian conscious for this forced & unjust occupation.

And so the debate will go on. I only hope that we as 2 neighbours are able to resolve it amicably according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and not let an outsider monkey to decide it for us because we both will loose out along with the Kashmiris.[/COLOR]

Q - Have most of your countrymen experienced democracy for most part of their lives?

A - No

Conclusion - There's no point debating on 'democracy' with a Pakistani or anyone else who has not experienced democracy and whatever challenges/compromises it entails for all the participants of it.

@ My Pakistani friends: Please try to understand our plight while debating with you. Most of you have not experienced a functioning democracy for most of your lives and hence whatever logic I or other Indians will present to you will seem superficial to you and hence is beyond your ken because, quite simply, you have not experienced what you're trying to discuss with us.

 

[RollingStones]

USA is negotiating with the taliban my indian friend.

Sure...if they are listenable. I am sure there are some reasonable people even within Taliban who dont want to see death being rained from above, below and all sides. I dont think the US bothers to listen to people with extreme views. It is after all futile. Why would anyone want to listen to people with extreme views? That is a stalemate situation, if there ever was one.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

As per the NEWS, he(ba$ter) is arrested by J&K POLICE not by the INDIAN ARMY

THe J&K police are an unofficial branch of the Indian Army, they do as the Army say

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

RIP to the Shaheed.

 

[pundit]

Therefore it is silly and quite naiive for certain armchair pundits to deduce that there is no linkage between occupied Kashmir and the 26/11 attacks.

The LeT are Pakistani Punjabis drawing recruits from the areas mentioned. The only linkage is that Pakistan desires to annex Kashmir and hopes terrorist acts will somehow coax India to do so.

purely your own speculation....nobody is guilty until proven innocent;

This reeks of cognitive dissonance. Except for other Pakistanis, there is universal agreement in the world as to the origin of the attacks. It wasnt a bunch of guys from downtown Srinagar, it was Pakistanis.

lovely areas indeed....fine spectrum and array of people from those areas. Like anywhere else in the world, surely they have a few bad apples.

I quoted a Pakistani source. Deny deny and then deny again. No wonder nobody takes Pakistan seriously anymore.

both sides will never trust eachother's media, so no need to make larger "non-issues" out of some existing issues

Dawn is a Pakistani channel. I'm not quoting NDTV here.

And don't say Mumbai was a non-issue. It was and will remain a VERY BIG deal to us. Maybe you say it to rile Indians more which is a really pathetic mockery of our victims. It feeds our resoluteness to stand up to this even more.

....Pakistan Nation would always be ready to discuss, once the accusations, garbled chatter, etc. come to an end and india is emotionally and mentally ready to engage in such.

That day has come and gone. In the 80s perhaps.

To be frank, today Indians don't take Pakistan seriously as a threat anymore. The nuclear threat remains credible still, but even that is a matter of time. A poor man cannot protect his beautiful daughter for long. Such is the world.

In fact, most of the Indians on this board get a lot of schadenfreude to see Pakistan sinking deeper into debt, poverty and disgrace. I won't kick you when you're down, but you know what I'm saying.