Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[RollingStones]

Well! Therein lies the problem; and that's what sets us worlds apart.

It could just be that indian are in denial. Could also just be blind selectiveness about the reality to accept

either way, realities on the ground will always speak louder than numbers, or new delhi face-saving measures


indians do themselves (and occupied Kashmiris) a huge disservice when they bring up economics into this issue; one could argue that the French colonialism would have afforded better opportunities for Algeria (remember Operation Esperance?)

We all know that the economically & militarily superior French, despite cash grants, distribution of land ownership and other so-called "measures" would prove quite futile

The struggle and armed resistance against the French was a bloody one; more so even than that of Kashmiris against the indian occupiers over the past 6 decades. Mass graves, mass killings, ****, disappearances were the reality in both cases.

In one case, the Algerians sacrificed so much to get their independence. In the second case, said result is still in the works. It will be realized though, there is little doubt in my mind.


the storm has been brewing for quite some time now. This isn't a war of economics, caste-war, or war of civilization. It is a war between occupied peoples and their occupier --who is known to have committed vast human rights violations and iron-fist tactics against the former.

The (formerly known) Soviets were unable to do it in Afghanistan. The (formerly dubbed) West Pakistanis were unable to do in today's Bangladesh (exacerbated by a foreign terrorist movement supported by the enemy); and I sure don't believe that the hindustanys would be able to do it in Kashmir.



best path is a saner one; prepare yourselves on HOW to deal with a Kashmir that is not under hindustany administrative (military) rule.

That is the problem. You dont get it, do you? We in America do NOT believe that Indians are oppressors of Kashmiris. We think that Pakistan is the bad country here. And, we dont know what Kashmir is all about. Americans think that India is a democratic place where all religions live harmoniously. I dont know if this is true or not. But I personally find it hard to believe that India will stay merged as an entity, if there were grave human rights violations as you call them. I am not sure why we have to choose the France versus Algiers example. I doubt the French would have wanted Algiers to be part of France. Colonial conquests were for a completely different reason compared to the agglomerations existing today. Today's India is not a colonial agglomeration but a country. They dont hold onto land just because they want to exploit its resources and dont care two hoots about the people. I means you cannot convince the rest of the world that India is a colonial power in Kashmir. No credible evidence exists to suggest that. Unfortunately, Pakistan is a biased party in this case and we wouldnt listen to them. You need to get independent countries to endorse the claim of kashmiris and then present it over here and other developed countries - assuming you want our vote. The problem you face is, in that process, you have to get us to agree that India is an oppressive democracy by design (it maybe one because it is defunct or corrupt but not by design). The other huge problem you face is the success of Indians in America. You have very little chance of getting people to agree to the demonic Indian regime, when there are so many successful stories about Indians in America. Indians in America are fairly independent people, I'd think. I have several Indian friends, I should know. They dont toe their motherland's line just like that. But the problem is none of them think that India is an oppressive government by design/intent/systematic policies and the voices of such successful people count a lot. Bottom line: Kashmiris cannot win freedom by portraying the Indian government as an oppressor. There are no takers for that line. They have to do something else. What that something else is, I wouldnt know. Else, kashmir will go the Tibet way. No one cares anymore.

 

[bandit]

Pakistan is a biased party as well as equally bad in human rights abuses in Kashmir as India if not worse. This is especially important considering the fact that freedom as Pak govt defines is limited to accession to Pakistan. How does that make the life of an ordinary Kashmiri better is anybody's guess. The deceptively named Free Kashmir is totally under Isalamabads rule with large scale suppression of pro freedom elements, and unlike India, Pakistan has resorted to ethnic recomposition by allowing Pakistanis to settle in Kashmir and curb any chances of a freedom movement there.
The protests occuring in the valley were pro-freedom and against Indian govt, but it does not endorse the Pakistani position that Kashmiris are willing to join Pakistan rather than India.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

That is the problem. You dont get it, do you? We in America do NOT believe that Indians are oppressors of Kashmiris

Given that the standard American (based on polls and interviews, not my own opinion) can't even point some countries on the map, I dont think the view of the Americans really matters too much --except maybe the politicians, political analysts, etc. who vary in their views on the conflict.

the average Kashmiri will probably disagree with you or the people you are referring to, I think their opinion matters the most (more than Pakistani or indian)

We think that Pakistan is the bad country here.

we know

And, we dont know what Kashmir is all about.

So you don't think india is the oppressor; you think "Pakistan is bad"; but when push comes to shove, now you are saying you don't know what Kashmir is "all about"

if there were grave human rights violations as you call them. I am not sure why we have to choose the France versus Algiers example. I doubt the French would have wanted Algiers to be part of France. Colonial conquests were for a completely different reason compared to the agglomerations existing today.

try to look at the bigger picture and your confusion would be allayed

Today's India is not a colonial agglomeration but a country. They dont hold onto land just because they want to exploit its resources and dont care two hoots about the people.

precisely...!

I means you cannot convince the rest of the world that India is a colonial power in Kashmir.

mass majority of Kashmiris view it as an occupier

Unfortunately, Pakistan is a biased party in this case and we wouldnt listen to them. You need to get independent countries to endorse the claim of kashmiris and then present it over here and other developed countries - assuming you want our vote.

that's your view, and that's fine. Fact of the matter is, Kashmir in its entirety is disputed territory and shall be treated thusly

The problem you face is, in that process, you have to get us to agree that India is an oppressive democracy by design (it maybe one because it is defunct or corrupt but not by design). The other huge problem you face is the success of Indians in America.

there are succesful indians, Pakistanis, Norwegians and Ugandans around the world.....what's your point?

What does it have to do with the Kashmir conflict, which I already outlined to you was NOT a conflict of economic interests per se

You have very little chance of getting people to agree to the demonic Indian regime, when there are so many successful stories about Indians in America. Indians in America are fairly independent people, I'd think. I have several Indian friends, I should know. They dont toe their motherland's line just like that. But the problem is none of them think that India is an oppressive government by design/intent/systematic policies and the voices of such successful people count a lot.

I have no idea where you're going with this


subject is Kashmir and Kashmiris, you're bringing up indians in the U.S.

Bottom line: Kashmiris cannot win freedom by portraying the Indian government as an oppressor. There are no takers for that line. They have to do something else. What that something else is, I wouldnt know

no need for pointing fingers; a referendum held by a neutral body to determine the fate of Kashmiris seems warranted....

the indians will confidentally (blindly) call it an integral part of india while the masses hold mass demonstrations against them (in Azad Kashmir as well).

they label indian independence day a ''black day'' every year; some have even gone to the extent of hanging the Pakistani flag in indian occupied territories (more trivial, but symbolically noteworthy)

but despite all this, they do dogmatically cling to that false notion; so given this ''confidence'' --why not just pave way for referendum based on status quo?

the indians are afraid, I think.

Else, kashmir will go the Tibet way. No one cares anymore.

we do.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pakistan is a biased party as well as equally bad in human rights abuses in Kahmir as India if not worse. This is especially important considering the fact that freedom as Pak govt defines is limited to accession to Pakistan. How does that make the life of an ordinary Kashmiri better is anybody's guess. The deceptively named Free Kashmir is totally under Isalamabads rule with large scale suppression of pro freedom elements, and unlike India, Pakistan has resorted to ethnic recomposition by allowing Pakistanis to settle in Kashmir and curb any chances of a freedom movement there.
The protests occuring in the valley were pro-freedom and against Indian govt, but it does not endorse the Pakistani position that Kashmiris are willing to join Pakistan rather than India.

you seem quite confused....re-familiarize yourself with Pakistani Nation's official standpoint

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Pakistan is a biased party as well as equally bad in human rights abuses in Kahmir as India if not worse. This is especially important considering the fact that freedom as Pak govt defines is limited to accession to Pakistan. How does that make the life of an ordinary Kashmiri better is anybody's guess. The deceptively named Free Kashmir is totally under Isalamabads rule with large scale suppression of pro freedom elements, and unlike India, Pakistan has resorted to ethnic recomposition by allowing Pakistanis to settle in Kashmir and curb any chances of a freedom movement there.
The protests occuring in the valley were pro-freedom and against Indian govt, but it does not endorse the Pakistani position that Kashmiris are willing to join Pakistan rather than India.

Steals the show!

 

[bandit]

you seem quite confused....re-familiarize yourself with Pakistani Nation's official standpoint

It is sad to know that a foreigner has to counsel you on your country's stand. Pakistan govt stand is that freedom from India can only be interpreted as accession to Pakistan as it has agreed to UN resolution regarding this. From the horse's mouth-

WHEREAS the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir is yet to be determined in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people of the State through the democratic method of free and fair plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations as envisaged in the UNCIP Resolutions adopted from time to time;
http://www.ajk.gov.pk/images/stories/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf

So all that supposed talk and rhetoric carried by Pakistanis here and elsewhere is what it seems like after reading through the above- load of crap.

Steals the show!

I guess this does!!!

The appropriation of land in the Northern Areas by non-Kashmiri migrants from elsewhere in Pakistan, with the tacit encouragement of the federal government and army, has led to dwindling economic opportunities for the local population and an increase in sectarian tension between the majority Shia Muslims and a growing number of Sunnis. Ethnic violence first erupted in 1988, with riots in Gilgit that killed at least 150 people, and it continues to be a concern. According to the International Crisis Group (ICG), between June 2004 and October 2005 as many as 100 people died in sectarian violence that broke out over a government decision to introduce a new educational curriculum.

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/487ca21a2a.html [accessed 19 October 2010]
Freedom in the World 2008 - Kashmir [Pakistan]
Capital: N/A
Population: 5,000,000

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) operates throughout Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas and engages in extensive surveillance (particularly of proindependence groups and the press), as well as arbitrary arrests and detentions. In some instances, those detained by the ISI, the police, or the security forces are tortured, and several cases of death in custody have been reported. Impunity for acts of torture and other mistreatment of civilians by the military and intelligence services remains the norm. The territory also continues to be governed by the colonial-era Frontier Crimes Regulations, under which residents are required to report to local police stations once a month.[/

http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/...p;searchin=title&display=10&sort=date

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

rolling stone the indian.

 

[RollingStones]

Given that the standard American (based on polls and interviews, not my own opinion) can't even point some countries on the map, I dont think the view of the Americans really matters too much --except maybe the politicians, political analysts, etc. who vary in their views on the conflict.

the average Kashmiri will probably disagree with you or the people you are referring to, I think their opinion matters the most (more than Pakistani or indian)






we know





So you don't think india is the oppressor; you think "Pakistan is bad"; but when push comes to shove, now you are saying you don't know what Kashmir is "all about"




try to look at the bigger picture and your confusion would be allayed




precisely...!




mass majority of Kashmiris view it as an occupier




that's your view, and that's fine. Fact of the matter is, Kashmir in its entirety is disputed territory and shall be treated thusly



there are succesful indians, Pakistanis, Norwegians and Ugandans around the world.....what's your point?

What does it have to do with the Kashmir conflict, which I already outlined to you was NOT a conflict of economic interests per se




I have no idea where you're going with this


subject is Kashmir and Kashmiris, you're bringing up indians in the U.S.




no need for pointing fingers; a referendum held by a neutral body to determine the fate of Kashmiris seems warranted....

the indians will confidentally (blindly) call it an integral part of india while the masses hold mass demonstrations against them (in Azad Kashmir as well).

they label indian independence day a ''black day'' every year; some have even gone to the extent of hanging the Pakistani flag in indian occupied territories (more trivial, but symbolically noteworthy)

but despite all this, they do dogmatically cling to that false notion; so given this ''confidence'' --why not just pave way for referendum based on status quo?

the indians are afraid, I think.



we do.

How are they going to get this "referendum" done? Who have the Kashmiris convinced so far to hold referendum? Even the Tibetans with all their PR and representations in the UN could not get a referendum. I doubt if the Kashmiris would get it. It is simple. Why arent the US based Kashmiris publicizing this issue and they could even do a mock referendum (perhaps over the Internet) and publish it here? A Facebook app could be started where Kashmiris with others can do a mock referendum? Or get some prominent intelligentsia in Kashmir to speak about independence. So many ways to get the show on the road, and that too cheaply. A few twitters caused quite a flutter from Iran. Why not in Kashmir? If there's substance, it will show and there are many ways. Listen, do something that will get a concrete decision one way or the other or leave the people to prosper. It is ridiculous to be asking for something for 60+ years and doing nothing about it.

 

[RollingStones]

rolling stone the indian.

yeah, I've been called that a few times now. I think I get how some Pakistanis do things. Perhaps talking to more unbiased parties would help, instead of squabbling between yourselves?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Tibet is not asking for seccession from China; I believe they are asking for autonomy

Kashmiris are asking for self-determination


to compare Kashmir to Tibet is beyond ABSURD. Tibet isn't disputed territory. Kashmir is.

 

[StingRoy]

My family came from IOK and we still have land there and the papers to go with like the majority of kashmiri refugees in AJK.....the same is probaly true of kashmiri refugees in india.

I think we should also bring in all the kashmiri refugees worldwide.

The point of discussion was about how to deal with the non-muslims in case they dont want to join Pakistan (however hypothetical the topic of discussion maybe). If you do have land in Kashmir, then it is good for you right... why do we have to factor that in the 40% ratio.

 

[StingRoy]

To my fellow Indians -

Think of driving at night on a lonely road with your wife/gf. Suddenly a dog starts chasing the car and barking loudly. Your wife/gf is tense about the snarling dog. But consider this - you stop the car. Now the dog is confused. His plan was to bark loudly and chase the car. Beyond that, he has no real plans to drive your car. He simply cannot because he is not capable. His fun comes from chasing the car. That's it.

Thats an excellent analogy you gave here @mattoo.

 

[hembo]

After two decades, Muslim officer to command Srinagar-based 15 Corps
Wed, Oct 20 05:33 AM

After a two-decade gap that saw insurgency at its peak in Jammu and Kashmir, a Muslim officer is set to command the Srinagar-based 15 Corps that is the nerve centre of the fight against militancy in the state. Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain, who is presently commanding the Bhopal-based 21 Corps, is set to take over as the 15 Corps Commander by the end of this year after the incumbent Lt Gen N C Marwah moves on to his next posting.

Lt Gen Hasnain, who has served several stints in the Valley including a recent one as the Divisional Commander at Baramulla, is also the senior-most serving Muslim officer of the Indian Army. The officer, who is known for his academic leanings in military circles, is the only serving Lt Gen in Army ranks belonging to the minority community and is a second generation Army officer.

Hasnain will be the first Muslim officer to command the 15 Corps after Lt Gen M K Zaki who was in charge of the crucial command from 1989-91. Lt Gen Zaki was also later appointed as the advisor to the Jammu and Kashmir government from 1991 to '93.

Well regarded as an outstanding officer, Hasnain has had several stints in Kashmir and has spent a bulk of his over three decades of service in the state. More recently in 2008, the officer was instrumental in maintaining the peace in Baramulla that was badly affected when Jammu and Kashmir was struck by violence over the Amarnath row.

Then a Maj Gen commanding the Baramulla based 'Dagger' Division, Hasnain used the concept of what he described as 'soft power' to defuse tension by reaching out to the masses. In his several talks with local leaders, the officer gave his personal example as a Muslim in the Indian Army to drive home the point that the minority community can do well by joining the mainstream.

Besides tackling operational hurdles, the officer has also handled controversies in the Valley and is known to employ a firm hand against malpractices. As a Brigadier in 2004 when cross-border firing was at its peak, the officer was commanding the 12 Brigade that guards the Line of Control at Uri when he conducted a court martial against a Major who was accused of **** and molestation in the infamous Handwara case. The officer, Major Rehman Hussain of the Rashtriya Rifles, was found guilty and was ordered to be dismissed from the Army.

 

[Kinetic]

Does it matters whether the commander is Hindu or Muslim?

NO.

 

[MYSTIC]

Tibet is not asking for seccession from China; I believe they are asking for autonomy

Kashmiris are asking for self-determination


to compare Kashmir to Tibet is beyond ABSURD. Tibet isn't disputed territory. Kashmir is.

China is unwilling to give Tibet autonomy while India you are asking India to give freedom to Kashmir. Hypocrisy don't you think. Or is it that Tibetans are non-muslim and therefore you don't really care.