I was done with this thread and then i saw this golden comment. Love the upgrade, gone from the whole of Jammu and Kashmir(including AJK and GB) to the valley, made my day. Anything that helps keep the masses in delusion. BTW, do you seriously fall for this Shia Sunni crap? And how many times have i countered this and how many times have i waited for any reply on the point.
PS: just question the jump from the whole of Jammu Kashmir to the Kashmir valley, now that is a question you must ask yourself. And was there a census to determine this or Indian media crap?
PPS: Are these folks all Sunnis? no Shias? just curious...
And do you really think they are all being paid too? come on folks, delusion is not going to help.
Thoughts on calling the protesters terrorists and justifying killings of protesters? Should it not be condemned, don't you think such acts will only incite more hatred, especially among the youth. Forget about the youth on this side...
For example take this image:
What result will this lead to? how would you take your mother or sister getting this treatment. Forget about violating curfew and crap...
Why can't we just discuss Kashmir for the time being...
Holds no value, depends on what the locals want. Legally speaking so should:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manavadar
No, I'm afraid you are wrong there. The locals, by which you mean citizens and residents of the state, wanted a lot of things in a lot of states, but they got what the ruler wanted.
You cited Wiki. Fair enough, let's go with that. Baroda acceded to the Indian Union. That automatically brought all the territories vassal to Baroda into the Indian Union. That includes Junagadh, and that includes the vassals of the vassals, Manavadar. It was the sovereign right of the ruler of Baroda to decide where to put his allegiance, except that he was NOT proximate to the Dominion of Pakistan, and debarred from selecting Pakistan.
That is also why Kalat was rebuffed when the Khan wanted to opt for India.
In an even stronger case, that is why NWFP was deliberately left to the Dominion of Pakistan. That is what led to Bacha Khan telling Nehru,"You have thrown us to the wolves." Remember that provinces of British India were divided according to very high-level discussions between the Muslim League, the Congress and the British. Remember that elsewhere, the decision to go either way was left to the state legislature (as in the case of Bengal); considering that the state legislature in the NWFP was already a Congress-majority one, you can see for yourself why it became necessary to create artificial conditions for a positive vote for Pakistan, by sending the decision back to the electorate, and then by cancelling exactly 49% of the votes, carefully, precisely enough to give the province to Pakistan by popular vote.
If it had been purely what the locals wanted, wide swathes of British India, pockets within UP, and Bihar, and Bhopal and so on, should have been Pakistan; patches of the Sindh and of the Punjab should have been India.
Second-guessing what the British decided, what the princes had agreed to and what the Muslim League and the Congress had agreed to leads nowhere.
Most of all, there is a huge gulf between what the people of the Valley wanted in 1947 and what they wanted in 1984 through 1989. And the difference is the focussed effort put into creating a religious divide between Kashmir and the rest of India by an interested power.
Once again,
@WAJsal, it is good that Gilgit went its own way; it is good that Baltistan went, part of it, its own way, not entirely on its own volition but whatever; it is good that Mirpur went its own way. Quite clearly, the Dogra state was held together by brute force, and when that brute force failed, when the State forces could not keep the obedience of the people, when their basic loyalty had gone, that state deserved to fall into its component pieces, and I am glad it did so.
That does not in any way mean that the Valley was part and parcel of the falling apart. It did not fall apart. Just like there were local leaders who strongly influenced local opinion both in Gilgit and in Mirpur, as your own accounts show clearly, there was a local leader who strongly influenced local opinion in the Valley, and pretending that it did not exist, at that time, is not a reasonable reading of the situation.
So we are left with the question of how long this principle or philosophy of communal demarcation and division should be held in place. Are we to accept that because some external forces, some external personalities believed that the Valley should have gone to Pakistan, that is sufficient grounds to overrule the local sentiment at that time? I emphasise at that time.
You have to see the record for yourself to see what happened and what is happening.
On none of my visits to Kashmir before the 90s was there even a hint of feeling for Pakistan, or for independence, except among the bare handful of die-hard communalists around Ali Shah (he became Syed and Geelani much later). There were the externally based movements for annexing J&K to Pakistan which had no support outside Mirpur, besides literally a handful of cranks inside the Valley. All that changed from the 90s onwards, and I will not spend time on a Pakistani forum telling a loyal Pakistani what happened. It would be churlish and ungracious and would serve no purpose, none whatever. Just remember that the Mirwaiz's father was assassinated by Pakistani terrorists, that Sajjad Lone's father was assassinated by Pakistani terrorists and that today their sons, the present Mirwaiz, Sajjad Lone himself, are politicians who support separatism in sheer fear of their lives.
Against that backdrop, when every dissenting voice was shut by a bullet, when every journalist was writing under orders, where music was banned, where women were attacked by acid-throwers for being un-Islamic (out of a burkha), what do you expect the climax to be? And do you consider that accepting once more, seventy years later, that a community could destroy all other elements in society and seek to go the way its most obscurantist leaders want is a possibility for a country that stands for all communities getting equality?
Matters what the locals want...
"The last straw was Major Brown’s disagreement over some administrative issue with Governor’s staff that came from Srinagar. The Governor sided with his staff; and Major Brown got extremely angry and locked himself up in a room to analyse the situation and plan his future action. In his book, The Gilgit Rebellion, Major Brown writes, and I quote:
‘I, therefore, felt it was my duty, as the only Britisher left, to follow a course which would prevent this. And further, as a liberal member of the world’s paragon of democracy, I considered that the whole of Kashmir, including Gilgit Province, unquestionably go to Pakistan in view of the fact that the population was predominantly Muslim. Partisan, traitor, revolutionary, I may have been, but that evening my sentiments dictated that if the Maharaja acceded to India, then I would forego all the allegiance to him and I would not rest content until I had done the utmost in my power to ensure that not only the Gilgit Province joined Pakistan, but the whole of Kashmir also.’ Unquote"
Source:
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/#ixzz4E5s1swls
The rest i'd say i am done, won't reply unless rainman comes with another one of his golden posts.
