Kashmir and Indian Army

[Keysersoze]

So what...

That attitude is why the insurgency is still going on..........If you don't care for the people there, why are/were you there at all?

 

[Keysersoze]

Its not a special case that has to do anything with Kashmir or Indian forces.

40 odd kids went missing from on street near Delhi and was killed by a residents who lives in that very state, nobody did a damn thing when the complaints where filed for missing kids.

And there are '000s if not 00,000's of such cases in India, and that has to do with the inefficiency of policing.

Bull there is a difference between 40 and 8000-10000 and again please not the "enforced" part of the statement.

 

[Introvert]

Well yes everytime you F-up you create more opponents. That's why it's still going on.......

Oh and I have seen true professionals at work........They don't torture, they know it is counter productive. Creating more enemies for yourself is not smart.

100% true. Each time the Indian army/police F-up, they r only creating more opponents. And the Kashmiries have the right to avenge the killings. Just think about it, if someone is killed for the crime he didn't commit of course his loved ones would take action. So basically, since day 1 of the dispute, it kept adding up. The leaders of the 2 countries r talking peace but like it or not, the Indian side r not sincere.

 

[Keysersoze]

i say use torture or extreme methods on only those who are CONFIRMED terrorists. We cannot be light on these people. Bu yes, care must be taken to avoid getting grain mixed with the chaff. The authorities should first take good steps to verify the identities of such people.

But once found, torture them, spare nothing. They kill our women and children in the name of their cause. They deserve no sympathy. One of the people i knew was in Kashmir, and he got injured by the shrapnel that came from a grenade explosion. He is in IA. They shot the b*stard right in the head and then burned the building. I say way to go.

Ok I am sorry (I am not attempting to flame here but your attitude infuriates me)but that is the dumbest thing I have heard.......yes, well done you shot one guy and then burned down the house......that worked well in the occupied territories with the palestinians right? Or maybe in Vietnam....? Or in Iraq? wait.........no it didn't.............

Again if you torture someone....never complain when they do something nasty to one of your soldiers or policemen. You have lost the moral high ground and have no right to complain.
What about the women and children killed by "accident" killed in the name of your cause? Or do they get brushed under the carpet?

I have seen several ways of doing things in my time in the service and the methods you guys advocate simply DO NOT WORK

 

[Keysersoze]

How is it counter productive? Get a known terrorist. Bleed him, make him experience pain, and then get him for trials in an anti-terrorist court, wham, life imprisonment. Why does any1 need to know anything?

Simple.......information under torture does not indicate guilt. It has been proven if you torture someone enough they will confess to anything simply to stop the torture.

 

[Adux]

100% true. Each time the Indian army/police F-up, they r only creating more opponents. And the Kashmiries have the right to avenge the killings. Just think about it, if someone is killed for the crime he didn't commit of course his loved ones would take action. So basically, since day 1 of the dispute, it kept adding up. The leaders of the 2 countries r talking peace but like it or not, the Indian side r not sincere.

Honestly I am with Keyrose on this,
but then again Soldiers werent there till 1989, so lets see who is to blame!!! Avengeing by setting of a bomb in a IA post is ok...but Blasting market place...miltants have no morals...

Soldiers loose the sense of morality, when his comrade is killed by a bomb strapped on to some guy and protected by some idiotic locals...Stop sending terrorist,and we can talk peace...

 

[Contrarian]

Ok I am sorry (I am not attempting to flame here but your attitude infuriates me)but that is the dumbest thing I have heard.......yes, well done you shot one guy and then burned down the house......that worked well in the occupied territories with the palestinians right? Or maybe in Vietnam....? Or in Iraq? wait.........no it didn't.............

Well do tell me, should the Indian forces welcome the terrorists with open arms while they are firing around on every1 and lobbing grenades holed up in a house??
They killed them, and thats that. You xpect some negotiator to tell them that they will be offered this and that, and about the ways of peace?

Again if you torture someone....never complain when they do something nasty to one of your soldiers or policemen. You have lost the moral high ground and have no right to complain.

The torture is in response to the killings of the Indian citizens in Kashmir, who the terrorists proclaim they are fighting for.

What about the women and children killed by "accident" killed in the name of your cause? Or do they get brushed under the carpet?

There is no 'cause'. When you see terrrists , you shoot them, i would give no second thought about it. And most Indians would concur with me. I said in my first statement itself, that every effort should be undertaken to avoid grinding the grain with the chaff. Only when its certain, should terrorists be brought down.

I have seen several ways of doing things in my time in the service and the methods you guys advocate simply DO NOT WORK

Its not what 'you guys advocate'. These are my personal feelings, though i think many would agree. I say , find the right culprit and then take him out. Terrorists kill those whom they say they are there to protect. And they expect India to take it lying down??

Sorry mate, but your and my views differ radically on this front.

 

[sword9]

Well yes everytime you F-up you create more opponents. That's why it's still going on.......

That is a hazzard, and it takes years to learn things, refer to the Brit experience in itself.

Oh and I have seen true professionals at work........They don't torture, they know it is counter productive. Creating more enemies for yourself is not smart.

So now you are judging a nation's tactics that has kept at bay jihadis for 18 years...

keysersoze,
Refer to your post # 57, I don't recall making any changes apart from correcting some spellings.

That attitude is why the insurgency is still going on..........If you don't care for the people there, why are/were you there at all?

The "so what" was because the are tons of articles that state this and that...heres one for you, see below

Indian Kashmir 'more free' than all of Pakistan: report
http://www.newkerala.com/news4.php?action=fullnews&id=88126
In a damning indictment of Islamabad's "propaganda" about Jammu and Kashmir, a new report says the Indian-administered part of the state is "more free" than all of Pakistan, whose support of the "freedom struggle" in the Himalayan state has "little justification".

The "Freedom in the World-2007" report of the US-based Freedom House "totally dismisses the global propaganda war orchestrated by Pakistan against India on the issue of Kashmir," the NGO said.....

Ironically the report "Freedom in the World-2007" states that, while India enjoys a Free Status rating, Indian Kashmir is evaluated as being Partly Free. Against this, both Pakistan and that portion of Kashmir it administers have been classified as Not Free. (See page 12 in the pdf file below.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/press_release/fiw07_charts.pdf

As for the reason of why the insurgency in continuing, it is because it is too many interest groups in Pakistan, from the power brokers in Islamabad to jihadi leaders and civil-military officers who have enjoyed access to unaudited funds in Muzaffarabad, who have a direct stake in the ''industry of violence''. They can take a lull in business for some time but they seem hardly ready to wind it up.

 

[sword9]

Well don't make any judgements of the morals of others if you risk the lives of kids in order to save yourselves.

My men went home safe, the men under my command never had a fatal incident and did their job well.

So if you think I am a devil then that's fine by me. Its far easier to live with that than to see pieces of your men even in your dreams.

 

[Adux]

Sword,

Because of a cowardly inhumane Few, The Indian Military is getting a bad name, I know Counter-Insurgency is a dirty task and it is like fighting with one hand tied behind ur back while the miltants have no code or law.,even Americans are doing very bad job of it. Dont you think we should review our methods of issuing gallentary awards or atleast bring Military Police into a more stricter vigilance and law execution.
What is happening in Kashmir lately is not reflecting well on India's image; Though it was Indian authourities themseleves who brought the BAD apples in their fray out in the open and arrested.

Whatever it maybe I dont agree with Civilians used as Human Shields, We are not the Hezbollah or the jehadi group, We are far above it and our Moral High ground has been the only reason the world has supported us and not pakistan.

 

[sword9]

Sword,

Because of a cowardly inhumane Few, The Indian Military is getting a bad name, I know Counter-Insurgency is a dirty task and it is like fighting with one hand tied behind ur back while the miltants have no code or law.,even Americans are doing very bad job of it. Dont you think we should review our methods of issuing gallentary awards or atleast bring Military Police into a more stricter vigilance and law execution.
What is happening in Kashmir lately is not reflecting well on India's image; Though it was Indian authourities themseleves who brought the BAD apples in their fray out in the open and arrested.

Bad apples are present and have to be sorted out. The current procedure of granting gallentry awards based on citations alone should be done away with and and independent inquiry should be conducted to verify the claims in the citation that has been forwarded.

Whatever it maybe I dont agree with Civilians used as Human Shields, We are not the Hezbollah or the jehadi group, We are far above it and our Moral High ground has been the only reason the world has supported us and not pakistan.

I am willing to be the devil himself to defend the my nation. This is passive defense and it works.

 

[Adux]

I am willing to be the devil himself to defend the my nation. This is passive defense and it works.

I am a civilian, and i really wouldnt understand the emotion when one loses a comrade cuz a civilan dressed person who he just smiled at and gave way; came and blew him up with a suicide belt, but that being said

Isnt it the duty of the Soldier to actually stand in between the civilian "me" and the miltant and not the other way around. To protect the innocent at all cost.

 

[sword9]

Isnt it the duty of the Soldier to actually stand in between the civilian "me" and the miltant and not the other way around. To protect the innocent at all cost.

"You" are protected by what we did, and that civilian is protected by who "he" is.

 

[Adux]

"You" are protected by what we did, and that civilian is protected by who "he" is.

According to Indian Constitution and its various amendments, The Kashmiri citizen has more rights than me.
But for the army is it that the Kashmiri citizen is a lesser Citizen than me,therefore can be used as a human shield. Are you allowed to take that gamble, nobody gives army that right.
Or are you telling me that the jehadi's dont attack the kashmiri civilians, when the reality is that they terrorize the hell out of the kashmiri's with all the market bombs,rapes, executions and so on,

 

[Bull]

Bull there is a difference between 40 and 8000-10000 and again please not the "enforced" part of the statement.

You are speaking abt 8000 in a whole state and im speaking abt 40 in one street.

Both are enforced. You mean those 40 kids went missing voluntarily?

This issue is not Kashmir specific but point towards the lawlessness and the inefficient / unprofessional policing.