Kargil War 1999 - A Dedication

[Rafi]

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

even if it's true it only shows that you won the battle while we won the war

 

[Rafi]

even if it's true it only shows that you won the battle while we won the war

Well General Pal seems to think we won the battle as well as the war


He being the point man - has the best view

 

[kashith]

Well General Pal seems to think we won the battle as well as the war


He being the point man - has the best view

of course...tum log koi war nahi haare aaj tak....

 

[humanfirst]

Well general pal thinks losing 500+ men to take back the territories was a stategic loss.Does that in any way mean pakistan won the WAR ?while it's own prime minister says they lost 2700+ soldiers.He was the one who ran to bill clinton.And about PA never accepting death toll,the whole world know PA lied that there was not a single army/paramilitary soldier in kargil and all those were mujahideen(how more brave can an army be!!)Do we really believe them saying how much they lost out of initial zero number of PA regulars.

 

[Rafi]

It is was the indian army's criminal negligence that a large armed force (initially Mujahideen) and then NLI troops were able gain ingress, with strength into theatre. Even after all the war, the vast majority of posts had not been taken back, and the NLI - withdraw from most but not all posts, it kept some that have significance, which the indian media are lamenting to this day.

I have explained the 2,700 is a number that even the indian military is not claiming, Mr NS is a politician, at the time of that claim, he was in exile in Saudi Arabia - and therefore was very bitter - about Mr Musharraf who had sent him there.

For the tenth time (as injuns apparently, cant even comprehend simple diction) the area from, where NLI is recruited from - has less than 2m inhabitants - there is no way for the govt to hide from the wider world, that many casualties from such a small population.

General Pal (a honourable officer) says the war was lost on strategic terms, because Pak still holds some indian territory that was captured at the time of the war, that Pakistan has since then, gained military strength, also the Kashmiri Mujahideen received a huge fillip, and that the insurgency has gained the legs for another 30 to 40 yrs fighting if necessary.

Arundhati Roy asks what would independence mean to the people of Kashmir? | World news | The Guardian

On August 15, India's independence day, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of Srinagar, was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "happy belated independence day" (Pakistan celebrates independence on August 14)

As the crowd continued to swell I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often holds the key to all kinds of understanding. There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir.) The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan. (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself - Pakistan.)

Why was it so galling, so painful to listen to this? I tried to work it out and settled on three reasons. First, because we all know that the first part of the slogan is the embarrassing and unadorned truth about India,

 

[Rafi]

India Lost Kargil War: General Kishen
Submitted by BZ on June 1, 2010 – 7:36 pm85 Comments
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NEW DELHI—Eleven years after having led troops on the ground during the Kargil war, a retired army general has claimed India had actually lost the war in strategic terms as it failed to consolidate tactical gains. Lt Gen (retd) Kishen Pal, who headed the Srinagar-based 15 Corps during the 1999 conflict, told television channel NDTV in an interview broadcast on Sunday that he had never been convinced that India had won.

“We did gain some tactical victories, we regained back the territories we lost, but we lost 587 precious lives,” he said. “I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically, it has not been consolidated militarily,” he added.

The Armed Forces Tribunal recently indicted Pal for showing bias against his junior Brigadier Devinder Singh and falsifying accounts during the Kargil war.

Asked if the army was under pressure then to give quick results, Pal admitted it was so. “It was a big embarrassment to everybody. The then vice Chief Lt Gen Chandra Shekhar told me that there is lot of pressure we have to clear this very fast,” he said.—Agencies

 

[Rafi]

Army sources confirmed to Tehelka that at least two of these features are under Pakistani control, thanks to botched up military operations and a government that wanted to hide the truth. The fate of the other two features, Dalu Nag and Bunker Ridge, is still shrouded in mystery.

"Dalu Nag is certainly in the Kargil sector, but it has a history of its own since the 1980s. It has nothing to do with Kargil operations. Some parts of Dalu Nag may have been occupied by them at that time," former army chief Ved Prakash Malik told Tehelka. "I do not know what exact locations are being referred to by these names," he added referring to Saddle Ridge and Bunker Ridge.

For the officers and jawans ordered to engage the intruders in a near-impossible battle, this is more humiliating than the government's negation of the gains made by the army in the 1965 war. But then, Kargil would probably have never happened if the Tashkent Agreement was not signed in 1965. Even in 1999, India gave Pakistan a walkover and enabled it to retain territory that was always under Indian control. And then, the government misled the nation that Kargil had been cleared of all Pakistani intruders.

Former defence minister George Fernandes
, argued that the LoC runs over Pt 5353 and, therefore, was unoccupied by either countries till Kargil happened. A point which is not true.

Ironically, though it was the bjp-led government that hid the truth, the Congress-led upa government is also reluctant to clarify. Tehelka sent a questionnaire to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee asking him to spell out the truth about the four posts. But at the time of going to print, he had not replied.

Meanwhile, within the army at the level of middle and junior level officers and the brave jawans, there is discontent. Any army unit that has done its tour of duty in Kargil after the war in the summer of 1999 has heard about the secrets locked up in the forbidding heights. Perhaps it is painful for the army top brass to admit that Operation Vijay
was not really an unalloyed victory.

Pt 5353 is the highest mountaintop

in the Dras sector. It offers a vantage point to observe movement on the Srinagar-Leh highway (National Highway 1). Pakistani forces occupied Pt 5353 after senior commanders of 56 Mountain Brigade failed in a mission to recapture the peak. Just as the mission to capture Pt 5353 was botched, another Indian post, called Saddle Ridge, came under Pakistani occupation after senior commanders of 56 Mountain Brigade in Dras bungled








a military operation to recapture another strategic mountain post on Pt 5000 close to the LoC.

The Dras sector was the western-most of the intruder's positions and many posts on the mountaintops overlook nh 1. With Pt 5353 under Pakistani control, traffic moving on the highway is vulnerable to interdiction
by Pakistani artillery fire.

In addition to the Pakistani ability to interdict highway traffic in the Dras sector, Tehelka's investigation reveals that Pakistani occupation of three other Indian posts can put tremendous pressure on other Indian positions in the Tiger Hill
and Tololing complexes (see map). Pt 5000 is north-west of Pt 5100 and the latter is an important Indian post 12-13 km north-west of 56 Mountain Brigade in Dras.

 

[gurmeet]

dear friend dont u realise the faults of of ur army personnels

48? India begs UN for a ceasefire promising refrendum.
65?Begs for CEASEFIRE again.
71?Civil war,russian support,PAakistan embargoed army starved of ammo cant be reached,Russian support,whole country against Pak army,Pakistan lost the war.
Kargil?Pak uses no airforce,arty,massive army or anything?ill equiped NLI soldiers and mujahedeen armed with SMGs and light mortars hold back the whole indian military including AIRFORCE and all available resources........for weeksNo ammo weak Nawaz bows to US pressure withdraws,

No decisive victory but Militarily victory of Pakistan.

Hell i think i shouldnt even reply to a 16 year old fan boy who lives in USA.

 

[Windjammer]

ISLAMABAD: In what was a classic pre-dawn interception, air defence interceptors of the Pakistan Air Force, comprising of two PAF F-7MP fighter jets, intercepted and engaged intruding Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets which crossed the Line of Control in Jammu & Kashmir and violated Pakistan's airspace by several kilometres. The IAF fighters were believed to be two MiG-27ML ground-attack aircraft and two Mirage 2000H fighters providng top cover. The event took place in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July 1999, at approximately 2:30 a.m. (0230 hours) PST.

According to sources, PAF F-7MP fighters were supported by two F-16 Fighting Falcons providing back-up which conducted electronic jamming of the intruder IAF 'bandits'. The F-16s were scrambled whereas the F-7MPs were already on Combat Air Patrol (CAP) duty when the incursion occured.

The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the intruding 'bandits' within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters intercepted the Indian fighters and 'locked' on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots perceived was sheer panic. "It was not a very orderly or dignified exit", remarked a PAF officer.

According to PAF sources, even the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) perimetres had been met for launching of the air-to-air missiles which means that the PAF pilots had gotten the AAM tone indicating the bandits were well within shoot-down range of the PAF fighters. A missile tone is achieved when the missile's infrared heat-seeker or its radar has picked up the hostile aircraft. "It looks as if we gave them a fright", says a PAF officer, "Their RWR signal would have been blasting off in the cockpits as our interceptors tracked them". If the missiles were short-range heat-seeking missiles, then this would imply that the distance between the PAF and the IAF fighters was less than 10 kilometres - "Too close for comfort", as the PAF officer remarked.

PAF fighters did not shoot down the Indian fighters even though they were within range of the air-to-air missiles of the PAF fighters. The Indian fighters were perilously close to the Line of Control and their wreckage may have fallen inside Indian-held Kashmir territory which, going by their track record, would have given the Indian authorities the opportunity to blame the PAF for the intrusion.

According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate Pakistan's airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside Pakistani territory. 'Peacetime' in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has been declared.

In this instance, the third criterion may not have been met as the IAF fighters were too close to the LoC and their wreckage may have fallen on either side of the LoC.

"All the intruder Indian fighters fled when our our air defence fighters locked on them", said a PAF officer.

A second intrusion occured seven and a half hours later, at approximately 10:00 a.m. (1000 hours) PST, when two IAF fighter jets violated Pakistan's airspace in the Mushkoh-Olding sector in Jammu & Kashmir. Two F-7MPs were immediately scrambled from a forward PAF air base to intercept the two intruders. However, the IAF jets sensing the PAF fighters fast approaching them, turned back and fled into Indian-held Kashmir before the PAF interceptors could get a missile lock-on them.

In both cases, the IAF intruders had taken off from Srinagar air base, according to PAF GCI controllers.

 

[Bang Galore]

The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the intruding 'bandits' within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters intercepted the Indian fighters and 'locked' on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots perceived was sheer panic. "It was not a very orderly or dignified exit", remarked a PAF officer.

Yeah man, that's what we train our fighter pilots for - to flee in panic at the very idea of Pakistani fighters engaging them. You guys really have nothing to worry. Whatever aircrafts we buy, we still train our pilots to flee in panic. In any case, since we are talking about Kargil, I guess we can both agree that Pakistanis managed a orderly & dignified exit...then Nawaz Sharif's government made a orderly & dignified exit to be followed a few years down the line by the chap who replaced him - Gen. Musharraf - all making orderly & dignified exits. We can agree that Pakistanis are the masters of orderly & dignified exits as opposed to us fleeing in panic types.

 

[Windjammer]

Yeah man, that's what we train our fighter pilots for - to flee in panic at the very idea of Pakistani fighters engaging them. You guys really have nothing to worry. Whatever aircrafts we buy, we still train our pilots to flee in panic. In any case, since we are talking about Kargil, I guess we can both agree that Pakistanis managed a orderly & dignified exit...then Nawaz Sharif's government made a orderly & dignified exit to be followed a few years down the line by the chap who replaced him - Gen. Musharraf - all making orderly & dignified exits. We can agree that Pakistanis are the masters of orderly & dignified exits as opposed to us fleeing in panic types.

Dude, when you are bounced out of the blue, a knee jerk reaction is only natural, perhaps you don't want to recall the incident when a Chopper containing some of your Mukh Mantris strayed into Pakistani air space, they only realised this when PAF aircraft were onto them, in sheer panic, they removed their Dhotis and started waving them out of the Chopper's doors as a white flag symbol. As for the banter, perhaps you also ignored the fact posted in this very thread that Pakistan still holds the highest peaks in the region, but then again, being a victim of your own media you are not suppose to panic since all is honky dory.

 

[SQ8]

Yeah man, that's what we train our fighter pilots for - to flee in panic at the very idea of Pakistani fighters engaging them. You guys really have nothing to worry. Whatever aircrafts we buy, we still train our pilots to flee in panic. In any case, since we are talking about Kargil, I guess we can both agree that Pakistanis managed a orderly & dignified exit...then Nawaz Sharif's government made a orderly & dignified exit to be followed a few years down the line by the chap who replaced him - Gen. Musharraf - all making orderly & dignified exits. We can agree that Pakistanis are the masters of orderly & dignified exits as opposed to us fleeing in panic types.

IAF pilots refused to engage as they were tasked with A2G, and had orders not to violate the LOC.
PAF also could not engage as the aircraft did not cross the LOC.
Had they engaged.. the war would have been no holds barred..

 

[Dalai Lama]

IAF pilots refused to engage as they were tasked with A2G, and had orders not to violate the LOC.
PAF also could not engage as the aircraft did not cross the LOC.
Had they engaged.. the war would have been no holds barred..

What was the purpose of "locking" on as the articles states? Is this a common method of "warning" the adversary?

 

[Windjammer]

What was the purpose of "locking" on as the articles states? Is this a common method of "warning" the adversary?

It's just like some one's got you in their gun-sight, when you are locked on, alarm bells start ringing and warning lights start flashing, basically you know it's a checkmate.