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Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

So glad you got to the thread. You have been in the PAF. Can you verify the author's statements? How deep is the inter-service rivalry in the Pakistan forces? Does any one branch have more "clout" than the others? I ask because it appears here that this plan was strictly an Army unilateral one.

God knows we have our own rivalries....

TJ you are 100% right. Army, Airforce, Navy. You should see them when they are all sitting in one room.They are like kids fighting for a toy. Army with its numbers have always been respected by Airforce but on the other hand they know that without Air Cover they are Vunurable and Navy they think they are better than anyone because of there White's. we always used to make fun that they sulute is hands down ( which ment they are hiding something under the hand:lol:)
 
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TJ you are 100% right. Army, Airforce, Navy. You should see them when they are all sitting in one room.They are like kids fighting for a toy. Army with its numbers have always been respected by Airforce but on the other hand they know that without Air Cover they are Vunurable and Navy they think they are better than anyone because of there White's. we always used to make fun that they sulute is hands down ( which ment they are hiding something under the hand:lol:)

Sounds a lot like the US Forces. The rivalry between the Navy and Marine Corps can get pretty ridiculous. The Navy ships are not good enough for the Marines ( they have their own assault ships) and the Air Force air cover is not good enough either - hence the AV-8!!!! The Navy pilots are not pilots, they are aviators!! Any reference to the F-15 and F-14 looking kinda similar can start a full blown bar brawl!!
 
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Sounds a lot like the US Forces. The rivalry between the Navy and Marine Corps can get pretty ridiculous. The Navy ships are not good enough for the Marines ( they have their own assault ships) and the Air Force air cover is not good enough either - hence the AV-8!!!! The Navy pilots are not pilots, they are aviators!! Any reference to the F-15 and F-14 looking kinda similar can start a full blown bar brawl!!

Inter-services rivalry is a world-wide phenomena. The issue in Pakistan is that on many occasions the Army wields a clout not because of its size, rather because an Army man is in charge of the Presidency. The other issue in Pakistan is that because the Army is the largest of the 3 services, for any "joint" operations and planning to work, the Army has to be in the center of it. With the pie only so large, everyone is trying their level best to get the biggest piece of it.
 
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I am curious - I have not been able to find anything on the role of the PN in this conflict. I know it was a limited scale operation, but surely as the Indian Navy was planning a blockade of Karachi, the PN was not sitting idle? Anyone have any info on this?
 
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Inter-services rivalry is a world-wide phenomena.

Can't this be solved with an integrated approach to defence?

Look at the Canadian Forces. They merged the Air Force (AIRCOM), Navy (MARCOM) and Army (LFC) all into one unit in 1968, the Canadian Armed Forces, under one central command, the Armed Forces Council chaired by the Chief of the Defence Staff. Before this, they used to follow the British system like Pakistan and consisted of three separate services, the Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Canadian Air Force and Canadian Army. Also, I read in "The History of the Pakistan Air Force" that an integrated service system is also a more financially efficient approach, and was actually considered after partition, but due to the large and complex nature of re-structuring, it was abandoned.

I bet there are will still be some inter-service rivalries in an integrated system, but not as much as in a 'rigidly separate services' system. Plus, this is the century of integration and fusion, of rapid information sharing and joint ventures, therefore operating in the way that was suitable in the 1940s without any reviews is not sensible.

In the 'modernisation' of our defence, we must review old systems and practices. The separate services system should be one of them, along with other policies (such as the out-dated GD(P) selection system etc).

Note: I did not say 'change the system', I said 'review the system'.
 
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There is something of the sort in place in the US also. The Joint Chiefs of Staff is presided over by a Chairman ( appointed by the president - good old checks and balance ) and chiefs of all 4 branches. Any operation small or large is planned through them.

The political will to put something like this is required of course.

In Pakistan, this would be a hard sell. How in the world can you tell a COAS, who "overclouts" everyone else and is a president that he needs to share the crown?

From what I've seen every single dictator of Pakistan has always been from the Army. That speaks volumes in itself. Even when there is a civilian president - he utimately is allowed to stay only because he has not crossed swords with the COAS.Nawaz learnt that lesson the hard way.

I would love some input on this.
 
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I am curious - I have not been able to find anything on the role of the PN in this conflict. I know it was a limited scale operation, but surely as the Indian Navy was planning a blockade of Karachi, the PN was not sitting idle? Anyone have any info on this?

Where did you read this? I could not find it in the article. It would have gone completely against the Indian policy of non-escalation during Kargil. A naval blockade would have definitely started a naval war between India and Pakistan. So if you r gonna start a war anyways, might as well ask your troops to cross the LOC in the real battle-zone and attack the supply routes which is what the IA wanted to do but was never allowed to.
 
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Our Army is very strong but we need to concentrate on Air Force which imo is far more important then Army in today's war times.Either develop a good ground defense or develop very strong air force!
 
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It would have gone completely against the Indian policy of non-escalation during Kargil.
Wow!
This was a news!!
Non-escalation policy:rofl:
Concentrating your entire "Combat Power" at a single point of application while creating void in South (im talking some tactics here:cool:) and then also "shouting" that if this (kargil) conflict doesn't end an all out war would be started all along the Pakistani front!!!
If you call this a non-escalating policy, then hats off to your understanding.
but was never allowed to.
Never allowed to OR was it because we had to back out because of the international pressure (though for creating such a pressure the credit goes to the indians) but i m specifically talking in terms of military here!
 
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There is something of the sort in place in the US also. The Joint Chiefs of Staff is presided over by a Chairman ( appointed by the president - good old checks and balance ) and chiefs of all 4 branches. Any operation small or large is planned through them.

The political will to put something like this is required of course.

In Pakistan, this would be a hard sell. How in the world can you tell a COAS, who "overclouts" everyone else and is a president that he needs to share the crown?

From what I've seen every single dictator of Pakistan has always been from the Army. That speaks volumes in itself. Even when there is a civilian president - he utimately is allowed to stay only because he has not crossed swords with the COAS.Nawaz learnt that lesson the hard way.

I would love some input on this.

The US system is a cross between the modern Canadian and the old British system (from what little I know). There is still a significant bit of inter-service rivalry in the US, but not as much as in Pakistan (and far more than in Canada, I believe).

As far as the COAS being the most powerful person in Pakistan, it is a reality. However, you cannot judge Pakistan the way you may judge the American or the Canadian system. Right from the get go, our mere existance was threatened and, until 1962, there were still people who believed Pakistan would eventually be absorbed back into India. The Indians (in the 1950s) even went as far as saying that Pakistan does not need and should not have an armed force, because the Indian armed forces would be sufficient for both countries and a build up of arms would just spark an arms race. Therefore, right from the beginning, the armed forces (particularly the army) had to be made the strongest institution of the country. The US or Canada, on the other hand, have faced almost zero (with the exception of Pearl Harbor and 9/11) threat on their homefront, therefore, it makes sense if the armed forces are not the strongest institution.

There is only one other country that Pakistan can be compared with, due to the way it came into existence and the threats it has constantly faced at homefront, and that is Israel. Even here, however, it can be argued that Israel has always had the upper hand against its regional rivals (thanks to some strong support), whereas Pakistan has rarely enjoyed a similar position in the sub-continent.
 
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A retired Pak military officer has revealed that entire Kargil ops were planned by Musharraf with tacit approval of Nawaz Sharif.

New Delhi:

In the first account by a Pakistani military officer that nails Islamabad’s lie on Kargil, a former pilot who was Director of Operations of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) during the 1999 conflict has given a blow-by-blow account of the preparations undertaken by his country’s Army that led to operations inside the Indian side of the Line of Control.

Published in India in the latest issue of the 'Vayu Aerospace and Defence Review' magazine, PAF Air Commodore (retd) Kaiser Tufail, the man who “interrogated” IAF Flight Lieutenant K Nachiketa after his MiG-27 crashed in *** during a bombing run in the initial days of the war, has laid bare the detailed Kargil plan by the Pakistan Army. He says that the “Army trio” of General Pervez Musharraf, 10 Corps Commander Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmad and Force Command Northern Areas commander Maj Gen Javed Hasan “took no one into confidence, neither its operational commanders, nor the heads of the other services”.
Tufail, a decorated fighter pilot who was in charge of air operations during the war, has revealed that the Pak Army placed Stinger shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles on hill tops, moved artillery guns and ammunitions to posts that India had vacated during winter and drew plans to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil road to choke supplies to the Siachen glacier.

Now based in Lahore, Tufail says the entire operation was planned by Musharraf but had the tacit approval of then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif who, after a presentation, said “‘General sahib, Bismillah karein’... not withstanding the denials we hear from him every new moon.”
Recalling his meeting with top Army officers, including Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmad who was commanding the Rawalpindi Corps, Tufail writes that the Kargil plan was revealed on May 12, two weeks before India retaliated with air strikes, when Ahmad briefed him and others on the operation.

“Come October, we shall walk in to Siachen — to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold,” Ahmad is quoted as having said during the briefing, adding that “I have Stingers on every peak” to counter the threat of Indian air strikes against Pakistani intruders.

“The target was a vulnerable section of Drass-Kargil road, whose blocking would virtually cut off the crucial lifeline which carried the bulk of supplies needed for daily consumption as well as annual winter stocking in Leh-Siachen sector. He (Lt Gen Ahmad) was very hopeful that this stratagem could choke off the Indians in the vital sector for up to a month, after which monsoons would prevent vehicular movements and also suspend airlift by IAF,” Tufail writes on details of the briefing.
Expressing surprise over the failure of Indian intelligence to detect Pakistani movements that led to the occupation of Indian Army posts on the heights of Kargil, Tufail says it was well known in Skardu, days before operations were launched, that “something big is imminent”.

“Helicopter flying activity was feverishly high as Army Aviation Mi 17s were busy moving artillery guns and ammunition to the posts that had been vacated by the Indians during the winter season. Troops in battle gear were to be seen all over the city. Interestingly, Army messes were abuzz with war chatter amongst young officers. In retrospect, one wonders how Indian intelligence agencies failed to read any such signs many weeks before the operation unfolded,” Tufail writes.
Bringing out the disagreement between the Pak Army and Air Force on the operations, Tufail writes that many senior PAF officers tried to explain to the Army that Indian air strikes would wipe out bunkers occupied by ground forces but these were dismissed by the Army after Lt General Ahmad said “troops were well camouflaged and concealed and that IAF pilots would not be able to pick out the posts from the air”.

“Perhaps it was the incredulousness of the whole thing that led Air Commodore Abid Rao (Assistant Chief of Air Staff Operations) to famously quip, ‘After this operation, it’s going the be either a Court Martial or Martial Law’ as we walked out of the briefing room.”

And for the first time, giving details of IAF success in bombing Pakistani positions during the war, Tufail writes that round the clock air attacks had made retention of posts by Pakistani infiltrators “untenable”.
“The Mirage 2000s scored at least five successful laser guided bomb hits on forward dumping sites and posts. During the last days of operations which ended on 12 July, it was clear that delivery accuracy had improved considerably,” he writes.

Contrary to the Indian view that he was shot down, Tufail claims that Flt Lt Nachiketa’s MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble “caused by gas ingestion during high altitude strafing.” He writes: “Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tete-a-tete with this writer during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.”
He conceded that the PAF had trouble maintaining air patrols in the region to deter Indian fighters as its F-16 mainstay was facing shortage of supply parts due to American sanctions. “After one week of CAPs (combat air patrols), the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserves were being eaten into and the activity had the be ‘rationalized’, an euphemism for discontinuing it altogether,” Tufail writes.

According to him, F-16 was the only fighter available with Pakistan to counter India but it was decided to discontinue patrols in case its services were needed during a full-blown war. “Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the lack of cooperation by the PAF,” he writes.
Pak commander blows the lid on Islamabad's Kargil plot
 
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Even if NS was aware of the plan, army generals are to blame for such a stupid planning, politicians don't know the military strategies so he was misguided by army idiots.

These culprits must be court martialed, especially the biggest of idiots Gen. Mahmud.
 
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Even if NS was aware of the plan, army generals are to blame for such a stupid planning, politicians don't know the military strategies so he was misguided by army idiots.

These culprits must be court martialed, especially the biggest of idiots Gen. Mahmud.

Nice mea culpa on behalf of NS. BB had been in a similar situation and vetoed the plans earlier. How come NS could not muster similar courage to do so?

It is the job of the Generals to come up with solutions to problems being faced in areas of conflict. This particular plan came about as a result of Indian interdiction of Neelum Valley. The Army High Command is responsible for war gaming and putting up such plans to the ones who decide. In this case it is the political leadership of the country.
 
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Well Sir, its Indian side of story. Nothing in any Pak news paper. But those days NS assistant Mr Alfarooq is doing too much mud slinging on everyone. May be need to share some extra political heat.
 
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